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Topic: Move 13 (Read 5023 times) |
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Hannoskaj
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Fritz has played:
12s Mg3 hg2
Now we have the camel as a target. At first I thought we could not take it hostage immediately, so I did not look at that move, yet, but I had forgot we the horse would be frozen on d3.
A few ideas:
13g mh3 Eg3
13s Df4 x (Hb5)
14g Md3 Cd2 Rfe2 Hf2 with the terrible threat horse frame plus Cd3. Fritz would almost have to bring phant east before that, and our camel is still west. Maybe not so efficient if Rf4 instead of Df4 on 13s.
13s Df4 Ed4
13s Rf4 Ed4
Alternatives:
13g he4 Ef4 Me3
But after 13s Ee3 mf3, our camel is on the wrong side, our g2 horse will have a hard time playing back whereas Fritz' horses are very fast to b3 and d3. I don't like that too much.
13g hf3 Me3 Rf1looked very interesting since even after defending Hf4 + 3 steps, it's really hard to avoid horse frame and take by removing camel, except by having the phant defend, but then IT has to put our camel on the good wing.
But then simply Hf4 rf3 + 2 steps (Ed3 for ex.) effectively thwarts the idea.
EDIT:
I am not completely convinced by immediate camel hostage, especially against Ed4 Rf4.
I have looked in some depth at how to improve that, with a horse more free, the camel preferably to g2 (dog h4 free), the opponent elephant commited and/or a f4 square hard to reach. The main ideas are sliding minor pieces, and in some case strong horse frames, with threats to win horse very fast.
13g Me3 hf3 looks good against 13s Hf2 rf1 xx (Ed3) since we frame 14g Mf3 Me3 hf3 Hf2 (I have more analysis), but I was not sure we could keep an edge after simply 13s Ee4 md3 Ee3.
Right now, I like
13g Cd2 Re2 Ef4 he4
We threaten notably Hf2 Eg3 mg2, and I think that would be a better hostage. But first Silver has to defend against take camel or horse. It's likely Silver has to give us one step in the camel hostage process. The logical answer is
13s Hb5 Ed4 mc4 He3.
Too tired right now to look into it.
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| « Last Edit: May 28th, 2009, 4:52pm by Hannoskaj » |
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 13
« Reply #1 on: May 30th, 2009, 6:15am » |
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Autoreply
After still more analysis, the move I would play right now is:
13g Md3 Ef4 Cd2 Re2
The idea is still to have a better camel hostage.
Sample answers:
13s hg1 Mf2 De5
14g Ef3 he4 Me3 Cd3 (keeps the phant away)
13s Ee4 Hf2
14g hf1 Mf2 then two hostages transferred to phant. Camel and horse slow to come back into play, but west should meanwhile be held by horse.
13s Ee4 md4 Hc4
14g Hf2 mg2 Eg3
with complicated testplay, but Gold looked good (defends camel with Hb6 if needed on the left, and with dog on the right; if Silver phant does not move, free camel with horse; if possible let f2 horse go out.)
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Adanac
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Re: Move 13
« Reply #2 on: May 31st, 2009, 7:29am » |
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on May 30th, 2009, 6:15am, Hannoskaj wrote:After still more analysis, the move I would play right now is:
13g Md3 Ef4 Cd2 Re2
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I’ll support Hannoskaj’s camel hostage plan. We'll have to be careful that our elephant doesn't getting buried in a swarm, but we do appear to have the advantage and a stable position at the moment. Plus, our camel is safer than it appears
You should specify that it's the f2 rabbit rather than the e1 rabbit that moves to e2 on the 4th step. I moved the e1 rabbit when playing through the subsequent moves and I had trouble understanding what was going on. Then I read the part about freeing the g2 horse and it all made sense. But it would be nice if the notation were more precise.
Quote:13s Ee4 md4 Hc4
14g Hf2 mg2 Eg3 |
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Wouldn’t we just kill the c4 horse here?
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 13
« Reply #3 on: May 31st, 2009, 1:40pm » |
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on May 31st, 2009, 7:29am, Adanac wrote:
You should specify that it's the f2 rabbit rather than the e1 rabbit that moves to e2 on the 4th step.
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Sorry. I had so often played the moves to Hf2 in a row that I had forgot there could be an ambiguity if I stopped midway.
Quote:
Wouldn’t we just kill the c4 horse here?
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You're right, of course.
Then make it 13s Ee4 md4 x (De5, Cg6).
In fact this 13g yields a fun position. We have no direct threat, so Silver is free to move its light pieces, but his heavy pieces are almost tied. If the camel moves, the e3 horse has no time to go away, so the camel must end at f2 or g3. If the elephant moves, it must pull/push camel or allow the horse to flee while keeping control of f3. Moreover then the c5 horse cannot go to c4. By the way, on a move like 13s Hb3 x, the Hb3 horse gives us yet other tactical opportunities, not to mention hostage possibilities.
In particular, the only non-suicidal Silver moves that change the situation around f2 trap are:
Ee4 Hf2
Ee4 Hf3 Ee3
Mf2 hf1
Mf2 hg1 x
Mew rh3 x (EDIT)
Another fun remark on this suggested 13g is that it is almost a case of four unrelated steps . Only almost, since we have to play Cd2 before Rfe2.
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| « Last Edit: May 31st, 2009, 1:55pm by Hannoskaj » |
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 13
« Reply #4 on: Jun 1st, 2009, 4:49am » |
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on May 30th, 2009, 6:15am, Hannoskaj wrote:
After still more analysis, the move I would play right now is:
13g Md3 Ef4 Cd2 Re2
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This looks good to me. We want to think about how to free our H on g2 after we take the m hostage.
Is there support for a voice vote on this move?
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 13
« Reply #5 on: Jun 1st, 2009, 4:54am » |
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Fritz's trash talk says that we have fallen into his trap. Any replies?
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 13
« Reply #6 on: Jun 1st, 2009, 2:36pm » |
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on Jun 1st, 2009, 4:54am, RonWeasley wrote:| Fritz's trash talk says that we have fallen into his trap. Any replies? |
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Just wait for your phant to fall into ours !
By the way, where can we read this chat ?
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jdb
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Re: Move 13
« Reply #7 on: Jun 1st, 2009, 3:29pm » |
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Instead of going after the camel hostage, how about
13w he3w Ee4s hd3s Mc3e
Plan is to eventually have
Mc2 hc1
For the other idea,
13g Mc3w Ee4e Ce2w Rf2w
13s ec4e ed4e he3e ee4s
Gold gets a camel hostage, but silver's pieces are well placed to flood the f3 trap.
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 13
« Reply #8 on: Jun 2nd, 2009, 12:42am » |
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Ah, some discussion at last!
on Jun 1st, 2009, 3:29pm, jdb wrote:Instead of going after the camel hostage, how about
13w he3w Ee4s hd3s Mc3e
Plan is to eventually have
Mc2 hc1
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Silver probably has no time for mc3 Ed3 because of camel.
A possible idea is 13s Ee4 md4 Mg4, but I think I would simply move back camel
13s Mg5 dg4 Hb5
with the idea Ed3 mc3 and possibilities of seizing either c2 or f2 for the horse if Gold takes time defending dog.
If we try to punish, this gets, as usual,messy:
14g Hf3 Dh4 Mc3 hd3
14s camel flip
15g Ee4 he3 Hb6
15s Ec5 md5 xx (Cg6 De5)
and Silver just managed to hold its own end in my testplay, but I would really give no guarantee on this estimation. This might be the type of position where a bot is a strong adviser.
Quote:
For the other idea,
13g Mc3w Ee4e Ce2w Rf2w
13s ec4e ed4e he3e ee4s
Gold gets a camel hostage, but silver's pieces are well placed to flood the f3 trap.
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14g Hf2 mg2 Eg3
If any other piece than horse+elephant keeps f4/e3, horse jumps out, and there are many successive pieces trapped on f3 if the phant is away. Meanwhile, camel free to roam.
In particular, we threaten
15g Hb5 Md5 x, and would rather welcome the elephant following camel.
Do you have a sample line where Silver is OK ?
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 13
« Reply #9 on: Jun 2nd, 2009, 4:14am » |
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on Jun 1st, 2009, 2:36pm, Hannoskaj wrote:
By the way, where can we read this chat ? |
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I can see it only if I log into the game as TheMob. You're not missing much, but Fritz appears to enjoy a little mild trash talk.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 13
« Reply #10 on: Jun 2nd, 2009, 4:31am » |
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on Jun 1st, 2009, 3:29pm, jdb wrote:
For the other idea,
13g Mc3w Ee4e Ce2w Rf2w
13s ec4e ed4e he3e ee4s
Gold gets a camel hostage, but silver's pieces are well placed to flood the f3 trap.
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14g Ef4e mg3e Eg4s Hg2w
and the gold H can get to f4 and make f3 a kill zone. If the silver e stays near f3, the gold M goes after the silver h on c5.
Consider 13g Ee4e Ce2w Rf2w Hg2w.
This makes it harder to disrupt gold's control of f3 and the gold M is still not in trouble. f3 then has horse framing threats.
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jdb
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Re: Move 13
« Reply #11 on: Jun 2nd, 2009, 11:13am » |
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Quote:Consider 13g Ee4e Ce2w Rf2w Hg2w.
This makes it harder to disrupt gold's control of f3 and the gold M is still not in trouble. f3 then has horse framing threats. |
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This is probably worth a closer look. Controlling f2 with our horse looks like the right idea.
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 13
« Reply #12 on: Jun 2nd, 2009, 12:37pm » |
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Quote:
13w he3w Ee4s hd3s Mc3e
13s Mg5 dg4 Hb5
with the idea Ed3 mc3 and possibilities of seizing either c2 or f2 for the horse if Gold takes time defending dog.
If we try to punish, this gets, as usual,messy:
14g Hf3 Dh4 Mc3 hd3
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I don't know what I thought when giving this follow-up. After 14s Hb4 mc4 Ed4 Hd2, I think Silver is clearly better. Especially with the very interesting Mg5c5 as a possible reinforcement.
So that this 13g would really call for a Silver Ed3 Hd2 wanting to go to c2 and the other horse to b3 (no fear of hostage to a3 since unless the elephant defends Silver can push camel up), plus very mobile camel. I don't think we have any advantage.
on Jun 2nd, 2009, 4:31am, RonWeasley wrote:
Consider 13g Ee4e Ce2w Rf2w Hg2w.
This makes it harder to disrupt gold's control of f3 and the gold M is still not in trouble. f3 then has horse framing threats. |
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Well ideally that would be a better move, but though the camel is not in immediate danger, it can be used to gain time. And if away, there is no frame threat.
13s Hb4 mc4 Ed4
14g defends camel (at least two steps) (Rc3 Cb3 hb5 Mb4)
14s rabbit e2 flipped to f3
In this position (well, here there is not yet the camel hostage), I think we should really avoid having a rabbit on f3. If now camel hostage, Silver adds a dog on f4, and the blockade of the trap is very long to crack. We have to sacrifice rabbit, or to transfer the hostage so that the elephant is in f2, so that the rabbit may go to g3. Even then Silver could try to add a piece on g3, but that's probably less effective. Anyhow, even a cat on f4 would make the blockade hard, even with the h4 dog. And we probably would have to make the rabbit very vulnerable in the process.
This would give much free time for the elephant on the other wing, with all the (maybe fatal) consequences.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 13
« Reply #13 on: Jun 3rd, 2009, 4:23am » |
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on Jun 2nd, 2009, 12:37pm, Hannoskaj wrote:
In this position (well, here there is not yet the camel hostage), I think we should really avoid having a rabbit on f3. If now camel hostage, Silver adds a dog on f4, and the blockade of the trap is very long to crack. We have to sacrifice rabbit, or to transfer the hostage so that the elephant is in f2, so that the rabbit may go to g3. Even then Silver could try to add a piece on g3, but that's probably less effective. Anyhow, even a cat on f4 would make the blockade hard, even with the h4 dog. And we probably would have to make the rabbit very vulnerable in the process.
This would give much free time for the elephant on the other wing, with all the (maybe fatal) consequences.
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After silver puts the R on f3, if gold has put the hostaged m on g2, the f3 R can go to h3.
I propose we vote Thursday and move Friday.
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 13
« Reply #14 on: Jun 3rd, 2009, 10:18am » |
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on Jun 3rd, 2009, 4:23am, RonWeasley wrote:
After silver puts the R on f3, if gold has put the hostaged m on g2, the f3 R can go to h3.
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Right, missed that.
As I said, the fact that we could not really avoid by 15s this f3 rabbit was the reason why I has stopped considering this move in the first place. If that's not dangerous, then it might be interesting.(*)
I do not have more time to spend looking on the move, so my preferred option is still my proposition, since I have tested it long enough to be reasonably sure there is no bad surprise [by the way, there is also the frame threat, but Silver will probably not let it played]. With the camel on c3, I don't know how much harassing it and weakening c3 can be a nuisance, so I am less confident, but the move could be better and save us a tempo (camel step).
(*) I am essentially learning through this mob game. I had seen this defense while playing around f3 trap; now I also know it is only efficient with h3 hostage, and preferably g2 white piece.
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