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Topic: Bad move errors and missing pieces (Read 1508 times) |
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mistre
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Bad move errors and missing pieces
« on: Jun 26th, 2007, 11:41am » |
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I have been having errors and missing piece problems in my games for a while now, but I have just learned to work around them by refreshing my browser. However, the problem has appeared to get worse which is affecting my ability to play.
In my most recent match vs Bomb2005fast, I could not get all of the pieces to show correctly before I ran out of time. When these pieces disappear on me - I can't even move them. This all started when I got a "Bad Move" error after hitting the send button. I am constantly getting these errors in my games.
Also, another problem I have is that I will make a move and then it appears that the bot is on the clock and I wait for it to make its move. However, I then find out that the bot did make its move (I just didn't see it) and I was actually on the clock. I have lost games because of this as by the time I refresh the screen my time is drastically dwindled down.
I am using Netscape 8.1.3 and I constantly have to switch between Internet Explorer and Firefox mode to complete games. When one stops working - I switch to another and usually I am able to get through.
It has gotten worse though and I am to the point that I don't want to play because I have to keep dealing with this. On my Mac at home using the Safari browser - I have far fewer issues, although I do get errors on rare occassions.
I hate to sound like a complainer, but these issues are severely hampering my enjoyment of the game. I am interested if anyone else is having these issues or if it is just me. Any suggestions are welcome.
Thanks,
Mark
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: Bad move errors and missing pieces
« Reply #1 on: Jun 26th, 2007, 1:24pm » |
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When I first started with Arimaa, I had serious interface issues, mostly not getting the bot's move, but also sometimes invisible pieces. It seriously interfered with my enjoyment of the game. I have said for a full two years now that fixing the interface is the highest priority for the advancement of Arimaa.
Eventually the interface problems went away for me, but only because I got a new computer and switched from dial-up to broadband. That's hardly a satisfactory solution for the whole community.
The bad news is that making a new interface is a large task. When Omar still had relatively plentiful time to devote to Arimaa, it always seemed like some quicker project had a better time/benefit ratio, so he always put it off. More recently he has had hardly any time. Also there have been two or three independent efforts by community members to create a new interface, but none have gotten very far, probably because it is just too much work for one volunteer to undertake.
The good news is that Omar has finally bitten the bullet and started coding a new interface. The "invisible piece" problem will be solved by bundling the piece images in the main swf instead of downloading them at game time. The dropped connections will hopefully be solved as well, although I didn't understand Omar's explanation of the technical change that leads to this improvement.
The bad news is that Omar is still very busy, so it's not clear when he'll roll it out. He has coded the setup phase (improved over the present), and the movement by hovering and clicking an arrow. The interface checks steps for legality, and considers a third repetition of position an illegal move, so it won't let you make it. I think he added sound this weekend. Probably adding networking is next on the list. Hopefully we'll be able to start testing it in a month or so, but you never know.
In any event, I feel your pain, Mark, and wouldn't blame you for quitting in frustration. On the other hand, perhaps you could avoid playing the fast bots, and ask your human opponents for at least a minute per move, so that reloading the game is usually feasible. Arimaa is such a great game, and we have such a great place to play (for free!) that I hope you can stick it out for a while longer. When I went through my period of extreme annoyance at interface issues, I realized that ultimately it wasn't as annoying as paying $50 a year to play.  Here's hoping we continue to see a lot of you in the game room!
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mistre
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Re: Bad move errors and missing pieces
« Reply #2 on: Jun 26th, 2007, 3:51pm » |
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Well I have a very fast computer and network and I originally did not have these problems. Then I would have them ocassionally. Now it seems that every game I am having to refresh the screen several times to get through.
I am wondering if I am the only one with these issues or if is this is a widespread problem. Like I said, I seem to have better luck on Safari than I do with IE or Netscape.
I have no plans to quit Arimaa - I would just like a more reliable way to play.
As for not playing the Fast bots - I really want to complete the ladder - I have one more fast bot to beat and then its blitz.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 26th, 2007, 3:54pm by mistre » |
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NIC1138
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Arimaa player #65536
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Re: Bad move errors and missing pieces
« Reply #3 on: Jun 26th, 2007, 4:36pm » |
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on Jun 26th, 2007, 3:51pm, mistre wrote:| Like I said, I seem to have better luck on Safari than I do with IE or Netscape. |
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Have you tried Mozilla too?...
I had this freezing problem a couple of times too... But lately everything weems allright to me. My only problem is that closing all windows running flash sometimes crash the browser! (it can be seen as an excuse to keep an arimaa game always open...)
As for the clients, I'm very sad that my client couldn't make it to the playable level... It was sooo close! One of the problem is that each one seems to have a different opinion on what language we should use to program. 
I tought by this time we would already have a sourceforge project going on for a client... I can't help much on making a larger project, because I never worked on a collective program before. 
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The_Jeh
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Re: Bad move errors and missing pieces
« Reply #4 on: Jun 26th, 2007, 5:13pm » |
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It always worked fine for me until I updated my Flash player. Now after a short time the text on the window gets thick, and occasionally it freezes. If the focus leaves the game table window, it gets too bogged up to return to it. All the other windows act up, too. It is as if a ton of memory is being used, I think.
Mine is a Pentium II / Windows 98. On a newer computer, though, it works fine.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 26th, 2007, 5:14pm by The_Jeh » |
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arimaa_master
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Re: Bad move errors and missing pieces
« Reply #5 on: Jun 27th, 2007, 2:49am » |
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I have no problems with mozilla firefox 2.0.0.4 at winXP
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mistre
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Re: Bad move errors and missing pieces
« Reply #6 on: Jun 27th, 2007, 9:38am » |
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I have just upgraded my IE from version 6 to 7. I have tried a couple of quick bot games and so far the performance is vastly improved.
Also, I had no problems at all with Safari last night, so this would appear to be a browser issue.
Thank you for your replies.
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mistre
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Re: Bad move errors and missing pieces
« Reply #7 on: Jun 27th, 2007, 11:39am » |
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Well, I just tried to play Bomb2005Fast again and I had the same problems.
Once again I tried to unrate the game after only 5 moves and it wouldn't let me. Can someone override this and let me unrate my last two games vs Bomb2005Fast?
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Fritzlein
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Re: Bad move errors and missing pieces
« Reply #8 on: Jun 27th, 2007, 11:44am » |
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Omar explained to me yesterday that the current Flash client connects to the server through http. The http protocol was never designed to keep a connection open indefinitely, so he has a hack to keep the connection alive until the opponent makes a move. Hearing a bit of the technical detail, I am no longer surprised the connections break some of the time. On the contrary, I am surprised that they don't break most of the time. The keep-alive method is a kludge.
The new client will maintain a socket connection, which is intended by nature to be open indefinitely, as well as to allow for two-way communication. Also, if the connection goes down, the client will automatically try to re-establish it, without the user having to close the game window and re-open it.
I still don't understand all the nitty-gritty, but intuitively I can see how http is not the protocol of choice for building a stable game client. I think we can expect a marked decrease in disconnections when the new client comes out. No promises on timeline, though.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 27th, 2007, 11:45am by Fritzlein » |
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mistre
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Re: Bad move errors and missing pieces
« Reply #9 on: Jun 27th, 2007, 12:01pm » |
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After another unsuccessful attempt to complete a game from my work computer (vs. a different bot) - I am beginning to think it is not a browser issue.
Could my problems be firewall related? I don't have near as many problems on my home computers.
If this is the problem - is there anyway around it?
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Fritzlein
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Re: Bad move errors and missing pieces
« Reply #10 on: Jun 27th, 2007, 12:29pm » |
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on Jun 27th, 2007, 11:39am, mistre wrote:| Once again I tried to unrate the game after only 5 moves and it wouldn't let me. Can someone override this and let me unrate my last two games vs Bomb2005Fast? |
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Unrating of games is a tough issue that has caused a lot of hard feelings in the past. The current compromise it to allow unrating only on time loss, and only if the person losing on time was equal or better on the board. Like most compromises, it is unsatisfactory in two ways.
It is unsatisfactory to have a slightly losing position be converted into a loss. I see in your most recent game against Bomb, "losing" just meant Bomb was happy to be holding your horse hostage with its camel, although pieces are even and it is far from clear who is winning. I'm sure you worked hard for those rating points, and it is not fair to have them go up in smoke.
On the other hand, it is unsatisfactory that people can help inflate their ratings by intentionally losing on time. Without claiming to know the facts, let me state the appearances: There have been two cases of players who attempted to inflate their ratings by botbashing in conjunction with abuse of the unrate feature. Each player discovered a pattern to reliably get an advantage in the opening, but would occasionally get in trouble later. Even with the current unrating policy, they would have the ability to time out when they are in danger but not quite losing, unrate the game, and start over.
From where we stand with the current compromise, we can't alleviate one problem without making the other worse.
I think it would be totally reasonable to make an exception to the policy in your case, since it is obvious you are having interface issues, and you are obviously not intentionally timing out to avoid losing on the board. On the other hand, having a policy that games are unrated at Omar's discretion would be a huge burden to Omar, not only because he would have to take the time to consider each case on its merits, but also because he would be like a judge telling folks when he thinks they are lying. Judges get paid (in part) to decide who is a liar, but Omar is volunteering too much time and money to stick him with such an unfun job.
The best solution is to fix the interface.
While we are waiting for a new interface, the best solution is not to care about ratings. It is possible to inflate your rating by botbashing, even if you never unrate a game. For example, some bots can be beaten by an identical series of moves game after game. Even when the identical moves don't work, a simple idea can work very reliably. In that context, you just have to accept that some people who aren't as good at Arimaa as you are will have higher ratings than you have. Indeed, for a while syed was the highest-rated player in the world, without having beaten a single human player. How seriously can you take ratings when you don't have to beat anyone to become number one?
You could have gotten a 2000+ rating without playing any bot but ArimaaScoreP1. True, your objective might not be to have as high a rating as possible, but rather to have a rating that accurately reflects your progress. It is good to have a tangible marker of how much you are learning. So, if you just want back those rating points you lost unfairly, you can beat ArimaaScoreP1 exactly enough times to make your rating is what is was before.
At the end of the day, the only really intractable problem is that it is hard to enjoy a game that keeps getting prematurely terminated. I don't think I could "work through" that problem myself. It just sucks.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 27th, 2007, 12:33pm by Fritzlein » |
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NIC1138
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Re: Bad move errors and missing pieces
« Reply #11 on: Jun 27th, 2007, 1:07pm » |
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on Jun 27th, 2007, 11:44am, Fritzlein wrote:| The keep-alive method is a kludge. |
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As most "technical details that not many people understand" are! 
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NIC1138
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Re: Bad move errors and missing pieces
« Reply #12 on: Jun 27th, 2007, 1:09pm » |
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on Jun 27th, 2007, 12:01pm, mistre wrote:| Could my problems be firewall related? I don't have near as many problems on my home computers. |
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I tought about that!!... Now that you say you don´t get the same problems at home, it´s almost certain!...
But is the computer you use at work similar to the one you use at home? For example: Is it a notebook you take from one to the other?
It might be something else in the network too, that cuts off your connection sooner then expected, or whatever...
Can you filddle in the configuration of the firewall?
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Fritzlein
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Re: Bad move errors and missing pieces
« Reply #13 on: Jun 27th, 2007, 4:05pm » |
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As far as workarounds go, back in the day when I disconnected often, I became convinced that I could prevent the problems by chatting to the bot. I had forgotten this recently, and I'm not sure if I was just superstitiously thinking I had control of something I didn't control. If you don't mind trying it, Mark, I'd be curious as to your results. (Of course, talking to the bot never made its invisible pieces appear, but it did seem to prevent the syndrome of watching the bot time out only to discover that the server said I had timed out.)
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RonWeasley
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Re: Bad move errors and missing pieces
« Reply #14 on: Jun 28th, 2007, 7:21am » |
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At Hogwarts I run Mozilla on linux and get a very reliable browser crash player and watching games after about 20 moves. Also I don't see any text in these interactive connections except for the move list. Lately I temporarily see the move list overwrite itself and some pieces invisible, but those problems correct themselves in a few seconds. I attribute this to the server being slower recently.
I'm encouraged by the description of the new interface because I think my crashes are the result of the repeated sending of moves and other data during the keep-alive kludge. I think a longer move list increases the probability per send of a browser crash. Remove this and I might be able to play interactive during lunch ... and watch my rating plunge!
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