Author |
Topic: Resigning (Read 2368 times) |
|
IdahoEv
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1753
Gender: 
Posts: 405
|
A minor wish: I wish the Arimaa community bias against resigning lost games would soften. Particularly with postals, where "playing out to the bitter end" can mean keeping tabs on a hopeless game for an extra two or three months, the injunction against resignation can be a significant logistical burden.
In understand the reasons why Omar prefers that people fight it out to the end, but there are circumstances where it is not a viable option ... or at least not a desirable one. In my current case, I am now traveling for the third week-plus trip in the last two months, and I have only very spotty internet access (every 2-3 days). This means I can barely keep tabs on the postal championships games I signed up for over four months ago. My PC game against camelback timed out sometime yesterday, and it is likely my game against petitprince will do the same this weekend. Since both were/are IMHO lost positions, I would prefer to simply honorably resign than struggle each day to find an internet cafe, interrupting my trip and inconveniencing my companions just to make a move in an endgame I can't win.
There's a difference between resigning every game at the first loss of a piece (unsportsmanlike) and using it honorably to avoid a protracted and uninteresting endgame (sportsmanlike). I think most of us are capable of making the distinction.
|
| « Last Edit: Aug 23rd, 2007, 11:59am by IdahoEv » |
 IP Logged |
|
|
|
arimaa_master
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #2010
Gender:
Posts: 358
|
 |
Re: Resigning
« Reply #1 on: Aug 23rd, 2007, 2:47pm » |
 Quote  Modify
|
on Aug 23rd, 2007, 11:59am, IdahoEv wrote:A minor wish: I wish the Arimaa community bias against resigning lost games would soften. Particularly with postals, where "playing out to the bitter end" can mean keeping tabs on a hopeless game for an extra two or three months, the injunction against resignation can be a significant logistical burden.
In understand the reasons why Omar prefers that people fight it out to the end, but there are circumstances where it is not a viable option ... or at least not a desirable one. In my current case, I am now traveling for the third week-plus trip in the last two months, and I have only very spotty internet access (every 2-3 days). This means I can barely keep tabs on the postal championships games I signed up for over four months ago. My PC game against camelback timed out sometime yesterday, and it is likely my game against petitprince will do the same this weekend. Since both were/are IMHO lost positions, I would prefer to simply honorably resign than struggle each day to find an internet cafe, interrupting my trip and inconveniencing my companions just to make a move in an endgame I can't win.
There's a difference between resigning every game at the first loss of a piece (unsportsmanlike) and using it honorably to avoid a protracted and uninteresting endgame (sportsmanlike). I think most of us are capable of making the distinction. |
|
I think in your situation resignation could be fully understandable.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
aaaa
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #958
Posts: 768
|
|
Re: Resigning
« Reply #2 on: Sep 9th, 2007, 12:42pm » |
Quote Modify
|
It depends on the level of play.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
IdahoEv
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1753
Gender:
Posts: 405
|
|
Re: Resigning
« Reply #3 on: Sep 9th, 2007, 4:19pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Sep 9th, 2007, 12:42pm, aaaa wrote:| It depends on the level of play. |
|
Care to explain what you mean?
In the etiquette of both chess and go, it is generally considered bad form to keep playing once you are confident you have lost. If both players are 100% convinced of the outcome after a certain point, you are just wasting everyone's time by insisting on continuing to play.
I've now taught about twelve go and/or chess players to play Arimaa, and to each I had to explain that the etiquette of Arimaa is the opposite: play to the bitter end, even if you know you have lost. Each time, these people have been totally befuddled by this quirk of Arimaa etiquette, and I frequently am in sympathy with them.
In postals, this can be pretty tiresome. If you're down by MHCRR and in a bad position, it may still be six turns before the opponent can force goal. What move do you make when you know none of them can lead to a win? Meanwhile both players still have to log in and laboriously make a move every day for over a week to bring about the end.
This unusual etiquette of Arimaa is even encoded in our rules occasionally, for example in the postal tournament you cannot receive prize money if you resign from any game. I think this is odd and unnecessary.
|
| « Last Edit: Sep 9th, 2007, 4:22pm by IdahoEv » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
aaaa
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #958
Posts: 768
|
|
Re: Resigning
« Reply #4 on: Sep 10th, 2007, 6:21pm » |
Quote Modify
|
I think the anti-resignation policy of Arimaa is a tradition that stems from the early days of the game when too little of the game was known to distinguish between just being behind and playing out a lost game. However, like all other games, as one becomes more skilled, one begins to appreciate the difference better and better. Even a game like go, which offers one of, if not the best chances of all board games for comebacks, has a strict etiquette against playing on regardlessly (although its Asian origin has probably played a big role in this).
Don't let the "Big Reversals" page fool anyone. There is only one bot-less game on it and its reversal was the result of nothing more than a gigantic blunder by chessandgo.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Isaac Grosof
Forum Guru
Longtime Arimaa Fan
Gender:
Posts: 175
|
|
Re: Resigning
« Reply #5 on: Sep 10th, 2007, 7:55pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Sep 9th, 2007, 12:42pm, aaaa wrote:| It depends on the level of play. |
|
If the players aren't so good, luck is more important, so you should never resign, but when the players are much better, the same disadvantage will make you lose the game invariably.
|
| « Last Edit: Sep 10th, 2007, 8:09pm by Isaac Grosof » |
IP Logged |
Sorry about that one thing.
|
|
|
99of9
Forum Guru
Gnobby's creator (player #314)
 
Gender:
Posts: 1413
|
|
Re: Resigning
« Reply #6 on: Sep 10th, 2007, 9:11pm » |
Quote Modify
|
I quite like the rule, and have never felt futile, because there is always something you can try (either with the goal of setting up a new vague threat, or just bitterly resisting the overwhelming forces). I also value the fact that games in the database are usually complete, and so as such you can do valuable statistical or historical comparisons without worrying about peoples resigning habits.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
IdahoEv
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #1753
Gender:
Posts: 405
|
|
Re: Resigning
« Reply #7 on: Sep 10th, 2007, 9:54pm » |
Quote Modify
|
[quote author=99of9 link=board=talk;num=1187888342;start=0#6 date=09/10/07 at 21:11:36I also value the fact that games in the database are usually complete, and so as such you can do valuable statistical or historical comparisons without worrying about peoples resigning habits. [/quote]
I will admit that this is the one effect that gives me pause. As a player it annoys me to spend two weeks playing out a lost postal ... as a bot developer and researcher it's very nice to have complete games in the DB.
On the other hand, I figure the game doesn't owe me (as a developer) assistance or an easy time.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Isaac Grosof
Forum Guru
Longtime Arimaa Fan
Gender:
Posts: 175
|
|
Re: Resigning
« Reply #8 on: Sep 10th, 2007, 10:00pm » |
Quote Modify
|
I think that since arimaa is primarily a game to be played, we should cater to that aspect, rather than other ones.
|
|
IP Logged |
Sorry about that one thing.
|
|
|
RonWeasley
Forum Guru
Harry's friend (Arimaa player #441)
Gender:
Posts: 882
|
|
Re: Resigning
« Reply #9 on: Sep 11th, 2007, 8:25am » |
Quote Modify
|
Most players admit to having trouble pushing a rabbit to goal in a strategically won position. Swindles aren't very common, but they still happen. Lots of us misplay our endgames. There's plenty of debate about at what point a particular game has reached a won position.
For these reasons, I like the no resign convention. Until we get better at endgame, I like to see how the winner converts an advantage into a goal. When I'm losing, I don't mind annoying my opponent by dragging out the endgame. Preference of a keeper, I suppose.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Isaac Grosof
Forum Guru
Longtime Arimaa Fan
Gender:
Posts: 175
|
|
Re: Resigning
« Reply #10 on: Sep 11th, 2007, 8:47am » |
Quote Modify
|
So you agree, its all about the level of play? if we were better at the endgame, then resigning would be fine?
|
|
IP Logged |
Sorry about that one thing.
|
|
|
RonWeasley
Forum Guru
Harry's friend (Arimaa player #441)
Gender:
Posts: 882
|
|
Re: Resigning
« Reply #11 on: Sep 11th, 2007, 9:38am » |
Quote Modify
|
I can agree with that. I don't think we're there yet. Even so, I feel only a strange sense of loss when somebody resigns.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
aaaa
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #958
Posts: 768
|
|
Re: Resigning
« Reply #12 on: Sep 13th, 2007, 8:36pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Sep 10th, 2007, 9:11pm, 99of9 wrote:| I also value the fact that games in the database are usually complete, and so as such you can do valuable statistical or historical comparisons without worrying about peoples resigning habits. |
|
One can also argue the opposite, namely that one doesn't want to corrupt the database with nonsensical loss-acknowledging moves, like elephant suicide and goaling an opposing rabbit.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Fritzlein
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #706
Gender:
Posts: 5928
|
|
Re: Resigning
« Reply #13 on: Sep 14th, 2007, 7:57am » |
Quote Modify
|
In light of this discussion, what do folks think of the ending to Game 58582?
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Isaac Grosof
Forum Guru
Longtime Arimaa Fan
Gender:
Posts: 175
|
|
Re: Resigning
« Reply #14 on: Sep 14th, 2007, 9:31am » |
Quote Modify
|
I think this was justified, as silver will definitely take at least a horse next turn, putting him up HCRR for nothing.
|
|
IP Logged |
Sorry about that one thing.
|
|
|
|
Home
Help
Search
Members
Login
Register
Reply
Notify of replies
Send Topic
Print