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Topic: Help with Arimaa book (Read 5126 times)

Fritzlein
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Help with Arimaa book
« on: Jun 29^th, 2008, 3:19pm »

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Mistre was very kind to give me a position I could use to illustrate an elephant smother that should not be maintained. Now I have finished the draft of the chapter on elephant smothers, and am starting work on the camel hostage chapter. I already have positions from actual games to illustrate a camel hostage that has been swarmed, a "high" camel hostage (instead of Eb3 ma3, it has Ec4 mb4 Hb5), and a camel hostage where the defender can run away with the elephant and capture more than he loses at the hostage trap (so the hostage was valueless).

To complete the set, I could use:
(A) a vanilla "good" camel hostage, with with Eb3 ma3 (or rotated/reflected), and the hostage holder having an active horse on each wing and a camel not yet committed
(B) a camel hostage position where the hostage holder doesn't have an active horse to protect c6, so the defending elephant has been able to flip out a piece and capture it
(C) a camel hostage where the hostage holder is using his free camel to prosecute a goal attack in the diagonally opposite trap, so the hostage defender has to leave to stop goal but doesn't get enough compensation
(D) a camel hostage situation where the hostage defender is going to leave and make captures at home, and they aren't as much material as what he is giving up, but it makes sense to break off before matters get worse. I want this to be a little more complex than lose the hostage camel to get a horse, because I've already got one of those if need be.

I realize this is asking a lot, but remember that if the game involves you, that means your name will get mentioned in the book. (Unless you are on the losing side and want to be anonymous...) Thanks in advance.

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Arimabuff
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Re: Help with Arimaa book
« Reply #1 on: Jun 29^th, 2008, 4:40pm »

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I have several cases of (c) in my handicap games against different instances of Clueless2005. Or would you prefer H versus H games?

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Fritzlein
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Re: Help with Arimaa book
« Reply #2 on: Jun 29^th, 2008, 5:47pm »

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HvB games will be great, as they show how much we dominate.

Could you suggest some game numbers?

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Arimabuff
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Re: Help with Arimaa book
« Reply #3 on: Jun 29^th, 2008, 10:29pm »

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on Jun 29^th, 2008, 5:47pm, Fritzlein wrote:

HvB games will be great, as they show how much we dominate.

Could you suggest some game numbers?

The following games are all with a DDC handicap (on my part Wink

) :

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=76304&s=w

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=76290&s=b

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=76182&s=b

In this one the bot is the one taking my camel hostage (and it fails) :

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=76147&s=w

In this one the bot takes my camel hostage but can't prevent me from killing its :

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=75891&s=b

In this one I take its camel hostage on F1 with my E on F2 :

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=75890&s=w

Hopefully one of them is in the ballpark.

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arimaa_master
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Re: Help with Arimaa book
« Reply #4 on: Jun 30^th, 2008, 5:49am »

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on Jun 29^th, 2008, 3:19pm, Fritzlein wrote:

I have one example - game number: 76968 however I don´t know in which category it is suited.

And if you will use this example in your book I definitely don´t want to be anonymous (despite being heavily beaten in this game

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Fritzlein
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Re: Help with Arimaa book
« Reply #5 on: Jun 30^th, 2008, 6:21am »

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Thanks, guys. I'll take a look at these games tonight.

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Soter
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Re: Help with Arimaa book
« Reply #6 on: Jul 1^st, 2008, 2:56am »

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Fritzlein, could you tell us what other themes/aspects of the game are you going to present in your book? For instance, are you going to include a chapter on horse hostages,rabbit frames, goal defense, Dual Lone Elephant attacks etc. etc.? Let us know what other kind of examples you'll need and it'll be easier for us to help you. I'm going to do some digging in the database today ( or tomorrow ) in search for something interesting.

Good luck with the book!

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Fritzlein
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Re: Help with Arimaa book
« Reply #7 on: Jul 1^st, 2008, 6:49am »

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Thanks for offering to help, Soter.

I have already completed my chapter on goal attack and goal defense, so I don't need more examples there. I didn't examine goals very deeply, partly because I don't have much expertise, and partly because it is futile to try to force goal from move 1.

I have also completed several chapters on capturing and capture defense. That is probably the most thorough part of the book, and reflects my bias as a control player.

I will not be doing a chapter on the dual-lone-elephant attack, or on any other opening theory. In my view it is pointless to discuss openings until one has a grasp of strategic themes. I've seen too many players complain that when they attack with EH in the opening they lose the horse as a hostage, but when they defend against an EH attack, they get crushed by it. It's not the opening that matters, it is understanding what you are trying to accomplish.

After Arimaa takes off, I expect someone else to write a book purely on advanced goal attack/defense, and a book on opening theory.

I haven't yet written the chapter on horse hostages and rabbit frames, so I will be needing examples of both of those. Also I will need examples of good swarms and bad swarms, weak advanced rabbits and strong advanced rabbits, as well as advanced rabbits that end up being sacrificed but are worth it for the time gained. I was going to wait to ask for help on these position until I had a clearer idea how I was going to structure the relevant chapters, so that I could say specifically what feature a position needed to have to fit in. However, it could also work the other way around: if people produce interesting positions, that could influence what I think it worth talking about, and how I want to structure the presentation.

Thanks again for your offer to help!

[EDIT]
I don't think I can have positions where an elephant holds a horse hostage and can't immediately pass it to the camel. That's more strategically advanced than I can get into in a beginner book.

candidates for positions I might use:
* horse frame that is working
* horse frame that is being broken
* elephant with horse hostage that can be passed off to camel
* camel has horse hostage for advantage
* camel has horse hostage for no advantage because camel is vulnerable
* early horse trade

I can always create such positions from scratch (and will do so if I can't find them) but it is more fun to use real games to illustrate.

« Last Edit: Jul 1^st, 2008, 11:15am by Fritzlein »

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Soter
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Re: Help with Arimaa book
« Reply #8 on: Jul 2^nd, 2008, 10:31am »

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http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=54134&s=w - horse frame, rabbit frames

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=58654&s=w - horse frame emerges, opens, reemerges, then disappears for good.

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=27930&s=w - horse frame ( eventually opened by camel from outside )

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=47266&s=w - dog frame, horse frame, dog frame ( a different dog this time ), cat frame - in that order

« Last Edit: Jul 2^nd, 2008, 10:32am by Soter »

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Arimabuff
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Re: Help with Arimaa book
« Reply #9 on: Jul 2^nd, 2008, 11:44am »

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on Jul 2^nd, 2008, 10:31am, Soter wrote:

How the H-E (attack) Double Hockey Sticks did you get these? Huh

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Soter
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Re: Help with Arimaa book
« Reply #10 on: Jul 2^nd, 2008, 11:56am »

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How the H-E (attack) Double Hockey Sticks did you get these?

Some research ( concentrating mainly on commented games of top players ) augmented by good memory.

« Last Edit: Jul 2^nd, 2008, 11:56am by Soter »

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aaaa
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Re: Help with Arimaa book
« Reply #11 on: Jul 2^nd, 2008, 1:04pm »

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Wouldn't that make a great feature, the ability to tag games?

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Soter
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Re: Help with Arimaa book
« Reply #12 on: Jul 4^th, 2008, 8:14am »

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Fritzlein
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Re: Help with Arimaa book
« Reply #13 on: Jul 4^th, 2008, 11:08am »

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Wow, thanks, for all the examples, guys. I'm sorry I didn't get around to writing this week as planned, but I'll use the long weekend to that end.

Arimaabuff, I will certainly not use the game where you dropped your elephant if you don't want me to. In any event I'm not looking for curiosities so much as typically, intelligible positions.

I'm afraid the DDC handicap games, now that I look at them, don't really illustrate the power of the camel hostage as much as the weakness of the bot in understanding the danger of the strategic goal threat. Clueless won't give up its camel, but in each of those games it could have had a fine position if it had given up its camel, because it still would have been all right materially. In other words, I'm afraid the handicap distracts from the pedagogic purpose. Sorry I didn't realize that until after I had looked at them. I did enjoy the double-camel hostage dynamic in this one, though: http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=75891&s=b I'll have to remember that trick to milk time from the bot and gain steps which eventually result in capture.

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Fritzlein
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Re: Help with Arimaa book
« Reply #14 on: Jul 4^th, 2008, 11:12am »

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on Jun 30^th, 2008, 5:49am, arimaa_master wrote:

I have one example - game number: 76968 however I don´t know in which category it is suited.

The position after 18g in this game illustrates the objective of the swarm more clearly than a full swarm would. I can use this to show what the hostage giver is trying to achieve.

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