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Topic: Effects of elimination rule (Read 469 times) |
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omar
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Arimaa player #2
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Effects of elimination rule
« on: Jul 31st, 2008, 3:44pm » |
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When we removed the possibility of draws by introducing the elimination rule, we may have unintentionally introduced a flaw in the game. What if the gold player aggressively begins pulling rabbits and tries to win based on finishing off all of the opponents rabbits first. If such a strategy always worked then Arimaa has become flawed. I think this needs to be explored to make sure there is a defense against this kind of strategy.
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aaaa
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Arimaa player #958
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Re: Effects of elimination rule
« Reply #1 on: Jul 31st, 2008, 4:02pm » |
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But shouldn't we have already seen before a whole bunch of draws as a result of both players simply pulling rabbits, if that were the case? This just goes back to the old discussion what (if any) Gold's first-move advantage is. If that issue is gnawing you philosophically, you might as well introduce the two-step limitation for Gold's first move already.
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mistre
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Re: Effects of elimination rule
« Reply #2 on: Jul 31st, 2008, 4:51pm » |
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Omar,
I don't think you need to worry about this scenario. Elimination takes longer to achieve than either goaling or immobilization as proven so far. Even if a player had a strict rabbit pulling strategy, it gets very difficult to ONLY go after rabbits and protect your own material and goal. Furthermore, once you capture about 3 rabbits and a few other pieces, it becomes much more practical to go for goal then to attempt to capture additional rabbits.
I will go so far as to say that any player that tries for elimination and only elimination will surely lose. If someone was to program a bot that specifically tries to accomplish elimination and does not try for goal at all - I bet you it would only win vs ArimaaScore.
Another way to see this is I don't believe there has been one game where elimination was the ONLY way to win. Many times you can goal WAY before the bot loses it's last rabbit. My game vs. RonWeasley in the postal tournament that ended on elimination was done because we mutually agreed to it. He had an unstoppable goal.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 31st, 2008, 5:02pm by mistre » |
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Tuks
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Arimaa player #2626
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Re: Effects of elimination rule
« Reply #3 on: Jul 31st, 2008, 5:00pm » |
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i agree with mistre, i can't see anyone finding it easier to kill rabbits (which start behind the big pieces) winning with goal
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: Effects of elimination rule
« Reply #4 on: Jul 31st, 2008, 6:09pm » |
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I agree that changing the rabbit-elimination rule doesn't tip the balance of power between Gold and Silver. Nowadays plenty of games don't even start off as rabbit pulling contests, and even the ones that start that way eventually devolve into a goal race. We don't need to explore whether there is a defense against someone who plays from the very start to try to kill all the other players' rabbits. The "defense" is that I can get a rabbit to goal before you can kill all of my rabbits.
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omar
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Arimaa player #2
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Re: Effects of elimination rule
« Reply #5 on: Aug 1st, 2008, 8:58am » |
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I tried a couple games against Bomb2005Fast just to see how hard it really is to win by elimination. Wow, is it ever hard!! The first game I gave up and switched to winning by goal; it was getting late  The second game I stuck with it, but only by ignoring lots of opportunities to win by goal. So the argument you guys have made is definitely convincing.
I noticed the bot bashing page has no win by elimination records. This has opened up a whole new area for bot bashing
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mistre
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Re: Effects of elimination rule
« Reply #6 on: Aug 1st, 2008, 1:06pm » |
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It was always my intention to add elimination records to the botbashing page. I was waiting until there were enough records to be worth asking Fritz to do a search. I will post here when I am ready to begin working on it.
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clauchau
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bot Quantum Leapfrog's father
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Re: Effects of elimination rule
« Reply #7 on: Aug 5th, 2008, 4:34am » |
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The elimination rule is also a nice turn-around from Chess : instead of putting the highest price on a single superior king, you put some price on the whole set of the lowest-ranked outnumbering rabbits.
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