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Topic: Opening Strategy 1 (Read 2785 times) |
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myopicblur
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Opening Strategy 1
« on: Jul 24th, 2009, 2:51pm » |
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For the following openings:
Silver
r r r d d r r r
r h c e m c h r
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RHRMERHR
RCRDDRCR
Gold
Suggest the best opening responses (8 turns) for both sides
for
a. exactly the same as the above initial position
b. as the above initial positions, but the colours are interchanged.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2009, 1:14am by myopicblur » |
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myopicblur
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Re: Opening Strategy 1
« Reply #1 on: Jul 24th, 2009, 3:00pm » |
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and discuss which strategies are preferable for both sides.
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myopicblur
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Re: Opening Strategy 1
« Reply #2 on: Jul 25th, 2009, 12:35am » |
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Perhaps I have not stated clearly what I intended to discuss in this thread. The title of this thread is "Opening Strategy", thus I suppose fellow players should suggest moves by explaining its intention of each moves.
Let's discuss move 2 first, for gold.
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myopicblur
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Re: Opening Strategy 1
« Reply #3 on: Jul 25th, 2009, 12:55am » |
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i.e. Move 2g.
I thought of advancing the e-side H to b3, E to d5. But is that a feasible choice for move 2g?
Not sure about the intention of this move... is that a move intended for launching EH attack?
For this particular move 2g, what would be the appropriate move 2s then? Feel free to discuss.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2009, 1:06am by myopicblur » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Opening Strategy 1
« Reply #4 on: Jul 25th, 2009, 6:38am » |
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What do you think of the strategies discussed in the Arimaa Wikibook?
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myopicblur
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Re: Opening Strategy 1
« Reply #5 on: Jul 25th, 2009, 9:23am » |
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on Jul 25th, 2009, 6:38am, Fritzlein wrote:
Good for an introduction--- but here I would like to discuss some details--- especially for the later stage of the openings.
I consider Move 2s: ed7s ed6e hg7s hb7s, to counter the EH attack.
Is that a suitable response for the aforementioned move 2g?
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| « Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2009, 9:30am by myopicblur » |
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myopicblur
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Re: Opening Strategy 1
« Reply #6 on: Jul 25th, 2009, 9:28am » |
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or move 2s: hg7s ed7s ed6s ed5s. Initiating an attack.
Seemingly a better move than the one mentioned in the above post.
then move 3g: Md2e Me2n De1n Dd1n.
Please comment on my choices.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2009, 9:33am by myopicblur » |
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myopicblur
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Re: Opening Strategy 1
« Reply #7 on: Jul 25th, 2009, 9:39am » |
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By move 3g following the above line, 3s has an option to initiate a EH attack, by hb6s hb5s ed4s md7s.
then 4g: Me3e Hb2n Cb1n Cg1n. This move 4g intends to slow down the attack by silver, on the other hand trying to develop attack. At this point it often gets me confusing (if I am the gold player)
For this 4g, 4s may push the c2 rabbit to north, by Dd2s ed3s Rc2n ed2w.
I am not sure how 5g should respond... let experienced players comment on all the above suggestions.
I'll now go for a sleep.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2009, 10:00am by myopicblur » |
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myopicblur
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Re: Opening Strategy 1
« Reply #8 on: Jul 25th, 2009, 9:50am » |
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Just read the following, feel free to comment on the following quoted comment:
on Nov 18th, 2008, 9:06pm, 99of9 wrote:Off-balance is much riskier for gold than it is for silver, because the silver player gets a chance to start exploiting our imbalance during their setup. For example, if we put the camel on b2, Fritz can put his elephant directly opposite on b7 (and his horses far away).
If we are playing gold, I favour a roughly symmetrical setup of some kind. |
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| « Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2009, 9:53am by myopicblur » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Opening Strategy 1
« Reply #9 on: Jul 25th, 2009, 11:20am » |
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OK, I understand now. I was going to say that beginners should not worry about specific opening moves. It is much better to first study basic capture and goal tactics, and next to study the elements of strategy such as camel hostages, elephant blockades, frames, etc. It is no good to talk about specific moves until you have learned enough to understand why those specific moves might be good or bad.
I see, however, that you are not a beginner. You don't play like a beginner, and you don't talk like a beginner. You don't make common beginner blunders against CluelessP1 and BombP1, and also you are clearly familiar with all the basic strategic elements. If there were Arimaa clubs all over the world, I might suspect you were a club player joining arimaa.com for the first time, but there are no clubs. Clearly you have played on arimaa.com before under a duplicate account, but now wish to remain anonymous. Let me just say that I would have appreciated if you would have been open about wanting to remain anonymous, like aaaa has done, instead of feeding us a fake identity.
Since you have good grasp of the game already, you would be ready for a more advanced discussion.
on Jul 25th, 2009, 12:55am, myopicblur wrote:i.e. Move 2g.
I thought of advancing the e-side H to b3, E to d5. But is that a feasible choice for move 2g?
Not sure about the intention of this move... is that a move intended for launching EH attack?
For this particular move 2g, what would be the appropriate move 2s then? Feel free to discuss. |
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I think that you must mean 2g elephant to e5, not to d5, because later you suggest a 2s for Silver that moves her elephant through d5. When gold advances his elephant three steps, it is more common to advance the horse on the same flank as the elephant, in order to be threatening the opposite trap in four steps. After 2g Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hb2n, Gold would need five steps to get both elephant and horse next to the c6-trap, and five steps to get both elephant and horse next to the f6-trap. So instead of one threat in one turn, Gold has two threats in two turns, which is less forcing. It would be much more critical to play 2g Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n, with an immediate threat to attack the f6-trap in only four steps, which is why this opening move 2g is the most popular among experts.
The long line you have analyzed for Silver's response begins with the counter-attacking move 2s hg7s ed7s ed6s ed5s, i.e. a 180 degree symmetrical rotation of Gold's 2g Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hb2n. This is not bad. Lots of moves for Silver are not bad in that situation because Gold's 2g didn't put on any pressure.
If, however, Gold opens with the more critical move 2g Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n, then Silver should definitely not open with the 180 degree symmetrical move of 2s hb7s ed7s ed6s ed5s. Gold will simply complete the attack on the f6-trap with 3g Ee5n Hg3n Hg4n Hg5n. Silver can't respond by attacking the c3-trap, because she will only win a rabbit from c2 while Gold is winning a cat from f7.
Indeed, one of the reasons for Gold to set up with rabbits behind his traps is to prevent Silver from making a rotationally symmetrical attack. If Silver responds to the Gold setup by placing cats behind her traps, it is not a mistake, but it means she is giving up the option of immediate counter-attack, and must defensively answer 2g Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n with something like 2s hg7s ed7s ed6s ed5s or even 2s hg7s hb7s ed7s ed6s
on Jul 25th, 2009, 9:50am, myopicblur wrote:| Just read the following, feel free to comment on the following quoted comment: |
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Oops, I clicked on the link to see where 99of9 had made this comment, since I didn't remember hearing it before. I didn't realize that it was part of the Mob 2009 discussion until after I opened the thread. My apologies to the Mob; I trust this accidental glance at an old thread won't give me an unfair advantage.
Quote:| Off-balance is much riskier for gold than it is for silver, because the silver player gets a chance to start exploiting our imbalance during their setup. For example, if we put the camel on b2, Fritz can put his elephant directly opposite on b7 (and his horses far away). |
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I agree with 99of9's analysis. If he is correct, it might someday prove that Gold does not have an advantage in Arimaa because Gold can't afford an unbalanced setup while Silver can afford it.
Here is the funny thing: When I am Gold I have started experimenting with setting up a flank camel in spite of the risk 99of9 identifies, but nobody as Silver seems willing to set up the Silver elephant directly opposite! We are so entrenched in believing that the elephant must be set up in the center that nobody will set up a flank elephant even when I strategically invite it. Therefore I have to contradict 99of9's theoretical analysis with a practical truth. In reality there is no risk for Gold to set up with a flank camel because Silver will never respond with an elephant on the same flank. 
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myopicblur
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Re: Opening Strategy 1
« Reply #10 on: Jul 25th, 2009, 8:13pm » |
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on Jul 25th, 2009, 11:20am, Fritzlein wrote:
I see, however, that you are not a beginner. You don't play like a beginner, and you don't talk like a beginner. You don't make common beginner blunders against CluelessP1 and BombP1, and also you are clearly familiar with all the basic strategic elements. If there were Arimaa clubs all over the world, I might suspect you were a club player joining arimaa.com for the first time, but there are no clubs. |
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There is a small but private hobby group (i.e. not a club) of around 10 individuals in HK, which play and discuss abstract games frequently. I suspect the same goes for Omar as well.
Arimaa was never a popular game among us, we treated Arimaa as a "chess variant".
The popularity peaked on 2008, when Karl's image from Dallas was posted posted onto the wall of common room. That particular image of Karl was removed after 2 months.
Quote:| Clearly you have played on arimaa.com before under a duplicate account, but now wish to remain anonymous. Let me just say that I would have appreciated if you would have been open about wanting to remain anonymous, like aaaa has done, instead of feeding us a fake identity. |
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Not really, but I would like to remain anonymous here.
Quote:I agree with 99of9's analysis. If he is correct, it might someday prove that Gold does not have an advantage in Arimaa because Gold can't afford an unbalanced setup while Silver can afford it.
Here is the funny thing: When I am Gold I have started experimenting with setting up a flank camel in spite of the risk 99of9 identifies, but nobody as Silver seems willing to set up the Silver elephant directly opposite! We are so entrenched in believing that the elephant must be set up in the center that nobody will set up a flank elephant even when I strategically invite it. Therefore I have to contradict 99of9's theoretical analysis with a practical truth. In reality there is no risk for Gold to set up with a flank camel because Silver will never respond with an elephant on the same flank. |
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You may have to demonstrate that by real game examples.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2009, 8:38pm by myopicblur » |
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myopicblur
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Re: Opening Strategy 1
« Reply #11 on: Jul 25th, 2009, 8:16pm » |
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on Jul 25th, 2009, 11:20am, Fritzlein wrote:
I think that you must mean 2g elephant to e5, not to d5, because later you suggest a 2s for Silver that moves her elephant through d5. When gold advances his elephant three steps, it is more common to advance the horse on the same flank as the elephant, in order to be threatening the opposite trap in four steps.
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Thanks for correcting the mistake.
Quote:
After 2g Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hb2n, Gold would need five steps to get both elephant and horse next to the c6-trap, and five steps to get both elephant and horse next to the f6-trap. So instead of one threat in one turn, Gold has two threats in two turns, which is less forcing.
It would be much more critical to play 2g Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n, with an immediate threat to attack the f6-trap in only four steps, which is why this opening move 2g is the most popular among experts. |
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Move 2g should be Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n. My original post was unclear, which caused your confusion.
Quote:The long line you have analyzed for Silver's response begins with the counter-attacking move 2s hg7s ed7s ed6s ed5s, i.e. a 180 degree symmetrical rotation of Gold's 2g Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hb2n. This is not bad. Lots of moves for Silver are not bad in that situation because Gold's 2g didn't put on any pressure.
If, however, Gold opens with the more critical move 2g Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n, then Silver should definitely not open with the 180 degree symmetrical move of 2s hb7s ed7s ed6s ed5s. Gold will simply complete the attack on the f6-trap with 3g Ee5n Hg3n Hg4n Hg5n. Silver can't respond by attacking the c3-trap, because she will only win a rabbit from c2 while Gold is winning a cat from f7. |
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Again, not hb7s, but hg7s on my post.
Quote:Indeed, one of the reasons for Gold to set up with rabbits behind his traps is to prevent Silver from making a rotationally symmetrical attack. If Silver responds to the Gold setup by placing cats behind her traps, it is not a mistake, but it means she is giving up the option of immediate counter-attack, and must defensively answer 2g Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n with something like 2s hg7s ed7s ed6s ed5s or even 2s hg7s hb7s ed7s ed6s
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read.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2009, 8:29pm by myopicblur » |
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myopicblur
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Re: Opening Strategy 1
« Reply #12 on: Jul 25th, 2009, 8:30pm » |
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on Jul 25th, 2009, 9:39am, myopicblur wrote:By move 3g following the above line, 3s has an option to initiate a EH attack, by hb6s hb5s ed4s md7s.
then 4g: Me3e Hb2n Cb1n Cg1n. This move 4g intends to slow down the attack by silver, on the other hand trying to develop attack. At this point it often gets me confusing (if I am the gold player)
For this 4g, 4s may push the c2 rabbit to north, by Dd2s ed3s Rc2n ed2w.
I am not sure how 5g should respond... let experienced players comment on all the above suggestions.
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How about this line? I am on a plan window to see how 5g should work.
The following: Silver to move. 4s.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2009, 9:06pm by myopicblur » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Opening Strategy 1
« Reply #13 on: Jul 25th, 2009, 10:02pm » |
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on Jul 25th, 2009, 8:13pm, myopicblur wrote:| There is a small but private hobby group (i.e. not a club) of around 10 individuals in HK, which play and discuss abstract games frequently. [...] I would like to remain anonymous here. |
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Thank you for admitting you are not a young Japanese woman. With that I will respect your anonymity.
on Jul 25th, 2009, 8:30pm, myopicblur wrote:| How about this line? I am on a plan window to see how 5g should work. |
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Has this position ever occurred in one of your games? If it has occurred once, it seems very unlikely to occur again. If it has not yet happened, it seems very unlikely to ever occur for the first time. Unless you are playing a bot that always does the same thing, one human or the other will have deviated before reaching this position.
The trouble with Arimaa opening theory is that the branching factor is too high. You can study a certain position and memorize the perfect move, but what good is that knowledge if the position never arises?
In the position you give, Silver has already misplayed. Her attack is premature and toothless. The elephant and horse together can't force a capture in the c3-trap for several more turns. Since Silver can't capture in c3, what is she really threatening? Her strongest immediate threat is to flip the gold dog from d2 to d4, taking it back to Silver's side as a hostage. But for this threat the advanced silver horse is unnecessary, and would in fact be better placed on b6, defending the c6-trap.
Because Silver's attack is so slow, Gold could choose ignore it completely with 5g Ee5n Ee6w Ed6n Rh2n. However, this seems to allow Silver to retreat without disadvantage (5s hb4n hb6n cf7e me7e). Therefore a more critical line is probably threatening Silver's exposed horse with 5g Ee5w Ed5w Ec5s Ra2n. Silver would not like to prevent the horse frame with a rabbit advance, since the advanced rabbit would itself become a target, and preventing the horse frame with 5s ed3e Dd2n Dd3n ee3w fails to 6g Dd4e De4s De2w Ra3n, so only 5s cc7w cb7s cb6s hb4w remains. But this exposes the silver cat, which can be persecuted with 6g Ec4n cb5s Ec5w Dd2s. Gold has the upper hand, and Silver would be happy to escape with winning a rabbit in exchange for her forlorn cat.
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myopicblur
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Re: Opening Strategy 1
« Reply #14 on: Jul 25th, 2009, 10:36pm » |
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on Jul 25th, 2009, 10:02pm, Fritzlein wrote:
The trouble with Arimaa opening theory is that the branching factor is too high. You can study a certain position and memorize the perfect move, but what good is that knowledge if the position never arises? |
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You may have misinterpreted my intention here. I expected the branching factor would be too high that we need several threads to discuss some cases that most Arimaa players may not realise at the moment. Not intend for one to memorise the move--- but to realise the strategy behind whilst understand the possibility.
There may be some interesting line added. Perfect moves was intended as an introduction to this (expected) heated discussion of strategy.
Quote:In the position you give, Silver has already misplayed. Her attack is premature and toothless. The elephant and horse together can't force a capture in the c3-trap for several more turns. Since Silver can't capture in c3, what is she really threatening? Her strongest immediate threat is to flip the gold dog from d2 to d4, taking it back to Silver's side as a hostage. But for this threat the advanced silver horse is unnecessary, and would in fact be better placed on b6, defending the c6-trap.
Because Silver's attack is so slow, Gold could choose ignore it completely with 5g Ee5n Ee6w Ed6n Rh2n. However, this seems to allow Silver to retreat without disadvantage (5s hb4n hb6n cf7e me7e). Therefore a more critical line is probably threatening Silver's exposed horse with 5g Ee5w Ed5w Ec5s Ra2n. Silver would not like to prevent the horse frame with a rabbit advance, since the advanced rabbit would itself become a target, and preventing the horse frame with 5s ed3e Dd2n Dd3n ee3w fails to 6g Dd4e De4s De2w Ra3n, so only 5s cc7w cb7s cb6s hb4w remains. But this exposes the silver cat, which can be persecuted with 6g Ec4n cb5s Ec5w Dd2s. Gold has the upper hand, and Silver would be happy to escape with winning a rabbit in exchange for her forlorn cat. |
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The position I have posted shows the position before move 4s. Silver can threaten to pull the c2 rabbit to c3, disrupting the position. Are you sure silver's attack "so slow" as you have interpreted on your last post? I wonder 4s Dd2s ed3s Rc2n ed2w would get gold into trouble. This results in a centralized R for gold.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2009, 10:58pm by myopicblur » |
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