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Topic: Playing 'over the board'. (Read 2484 times) |
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knarl
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Playing 'over the board'.
« on: Mar 29th, 2010, 6:24pm » |
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Gday,
I was thinking about buying a nice chess set, mainly so I could set up arimaa postal positions to peruse in my living room (plus it would look neat on my coffee table).
I was just wondering if many people play on a physical board, and how practical they find it for planning moves. I'm afraid I've become adicted to the undo/redo buttons on the game client, and the expert mode to play out a few ply.
I'm thinking using a physical board will either force me to think more carefully and improve my game, or it will totally frustrate me, and I'll mix up all the pieces and forget the original position :-P.
Similarly, if you're playing someone face to face, what edicate do you use for planning moves?
Cheers,
knarl.
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knarl
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Re: Playing 'over the board'.
« Reply #2 on: Mar 29th, 2010, 7:28pm » |
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on Mar 29th, 2010, 7:02pm, FireBorn wrote:
Postage to Australia mainly. I could get a nice stone chess set for a similar price.
Reminds me of something I was going to ask though: Does anyone else really feel the urge to use the knights as horses? =)
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Eltripas
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Re: Playing 'over the board'.
« Reply #3 on: Mar 29th, 2010, 8:14pm » |
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on Mar 29th, 2010, 7:28pm, knarl wrote:
Reminds me of something I was going to ask though: Does anyone else really feel the urge to use the knights as horses? =) |
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Me. Specially because in Mexico, the chess knights are known as caballos (horses). So I don't find any sense using the caballos as perros and the torres as caballos when I can use the caballos as caballos.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Playing 'over the board'.
« Reply #4 on: Mar 30th, 2010, 5:48am » |
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I have no problems using a chess set to analyze postal positions. At first I would have trouble remembering the starting position, and it was a pain to have to go back to the computer to make sure I was analyzing the right thing, but my memory improved over time. Also the checkerboard pattern is irrelevant and distracting for Arimaa, but I got over that.
I never had any difficulty with using knights to represent cats. All that matters is what can push what, and from my chess experience it was obvious. The only negative side effect of using a chess set is how it affected my Arimaa commentary: sometimes I call the rabbits "pawns" or even call the elephant the "king" if I am not careful.
Note that I use a chess set for analysis even though I own an Arimaa set, because my chess set is larger, which works well with my large hands.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Playing 'over the board'.
« Reply #5 on: Mar 30th, 2010, 5:50am » |
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on Mar 29th, 2010, 6:24pm, knarl wrote:| Similarly, if you're playing someone face to face, what edicate do you use for planning moves? |
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No planning on the board. You touch, you move it. You move it, it stays. Any other rule is confusing and annoying. The way I express it is, "Think with your mind, not with your hands!"
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Adanac
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Re: Playing 'over the board'.
« Reply #6 on: Mar 30th, 2010, 6:28am » |
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on Mar 29th, 2010, 8:14pm, Eltripas wrote:| Me. Specially because in Mexico, the chess knights are known as caballos (horses). So I don't find any sense using the caballos as perros and the torres as caballos when I can use the caballos as caballos. |
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I do that too. It looks like a horse, so I use it as a horse in Arimaa.
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megajester
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Re: Playing 'over the board'.
« Reply #7 on: Mar 30th, 2010, 1:37pm » |
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I'm like Fritz. I'm so used to rooks being worth more than knights, and since the different names in Arimaa are basically just a ranking system, I've always used rooks in place of horses. Though I've never consciously thought "rook = horse", just "rook is better than bishop, therefore rook pushes bishop."
Plus when trying to win converts I find it better to explain the rules first and the piece names later. To start explaining a "chess variant" to an already dubious person by talking about cats and dogs and bunnies doesn't help.  "Normal piece values apply, except bishops outrank knights, ok?" is much easier...
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| « Last Edit: Mar 30th, 2010, 1:39pm by megajester » |
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Eltripas
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Re: Playing 'over the board'.
« Reply #8 on: Mar 30th, 2010, 3:46pm » |
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on Mar 30th, 2010, 1:37pm, megajester wrote:I'm like Fritz. I'm so used to rooks being worth more than knights, and since the different names in Arimaa are basically just a ranking system, I've always used rooks in place of horses. Though I've never consciously thought "rook = horse", just "rook is better than bishop, therefore rook pushes bishop."
Plus when trying to win converts I find it better to explain the rules first and the piece names later. To start explaining a "chess variant" to an already dubious person by talking about cats and dogs and bunnies doesn't help. "Normal piece values apply, except bishops outrank knights, ok?" is much easier... |
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when trying to win converts I find it better to explain the game as a totally separated game from chess, because I don't think that arimaa is a chess variant, and when I say the pieces names I don't like saying that the horses are not horses but the rooks are horses and the horses are not horses, simply make the horses horses, "Normal piece values apply, except horses outrank towers, ok?" is much easier...
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Fritzlein
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Re: Playing 'over the board'.
« Reply #9 on: Mar 30th, 2010, 4:12pm » |
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on Mar 30th, 2010, 3:46pm, Eltripas wrote:| "Normal piece values apply, except horses outrank towers, ok" is much easier... |
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But rooks can push bishops? Why? Because a rook is stronger than a bishop in chess? But a rook is stronger than a knight in chess, too....
As I teach you the game I will rely on your chess knowledge and then declare that your chess knowledge doesn't uniformly apply because... well, because all of the pieces have other names too, which I wouldn't need to tell you in order to explain the game, but I will tell you those extra names so that you have two names for every piece (except the horse) because... it is simpler! 
Just kidding. Instead I tell the chess players what can push what, and I don't bring the Arimaa piece names into it at all. There is no confusion about a knight being a cat and a rook being a horse, because there are no cats and horses. The pieces are one king, one queen, two rooks, two bishops, two knights, and eight pawns. The object of the game is to get a pawn to the other side, etc.
On the other hand, if it is your objective avoid giving the impression that Arimaa is a chess variant, then you might not want to explain how it can be played with a chess board and chess pieces at all!
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| « Last Edit: Mar 30th, 2010, 4:19pm by Fritzlein » |
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Eltripas
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Re: Playing 'over the board'.
« Reply #10 on: Mar 30th, 2010, 4:24pm » |
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on Mar 30th, 2010, 4:12pm, Fritzlein wrote:
But rooks can push bishops? Why? Because a rook is stronger than a bishop in chess? But a rook is stronger than a knight in chess, too....
As I teach you the game I will rely on your chess knowledge and then declare that your chess knowledge doesn't uniformly apply because... well, because all of the pieces have other names too, which I wouldn't need to tell you in order to explain the game, but I will tell you those extra names so that you have two names for every piece (except the horse) because... it is simpler!
Just kidding. Instead I tell the chess players what can push what, and I don't bring the Arimaa piece names into it at all. There is no confusion about a knight being a cat and a rook being a horse, because there are no cats and horses. The pieces are one king, one queen, two rooks, two bishops, two knights, and eight pawns. The object of the game is to get a pawn to the other side, etc.
On the other hand, if it is your objective avoid giving the impression that Arimaa is a chess variant, then you might not want to explain how it can be played with a chess board and chess pieces at all! |
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Do you really think arimaa is a chess variant?, If you teach basketball with a soccer ball it doesn't becomes a soccer variant for that reason.
Also I still find much more logic to use the horse as a horse, maybe you don't because the knight is not called horse in english.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 30th, 2010, 4:26pm by Eltripas » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Playing 'over the board'.
« Reply #11 on: Mar 30th, 2010, 4:27pm » |
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on Mar 30th, 2010, 4:24pm, Eltripas wrote:| Do you really think arimaa is chess variant?, If you teach basketball with a soccer ball it doesn't becomes a soccer variant for that reason. |
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Oh, I see. By analogy, if you taught basketball with a soccer ball, you would avoid the impression that it is a soccer variant by calling the soccer ball a basketball. That would be less confusing for everyone. 
Quote:| Also I still find much more logic to use the horse as a horse, maybe you don't because the knight is not called horse in english. |
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I don't call the knight a cat, and I don't call the rook a horse, as I just explained. That's why it isn't confusing. Even if we had the same name for horse and for knight, I still think it would be easier to explain without imposing Arimaa names on all the chess pieces that already have names.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 30th, 2010, 4:31pm by Fritzlein » |
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Eltripas
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Re: Playing 'over the board'.
« Reply #12 on: Mar 30th, 2010, 4:33pm » |
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on Mar 30th, 2010, 4:27pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Oh, I see. By analogy, if you taught basketball with a soccer ball, you would avoid the impression that it is a soccer variant by calling the soccer ball a basketball. That would be less confusing for everyone.
I don't call the knight a cat, and I don't call the rook a horse, as I just explained. That's why it isn't confusing. Even if we had the same name for horse and for knight, I still think it would be easier to explain without imposing Arimaa names on all the chess pieces that already have names. |
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I would call the soccer ball just ball to avoid confusions if there were any.
And I don't change the names of the pieces when I explain the game with a chess set, just when I play I use the horses as horses.
Anyways you didn't answered my question about if you consider arimaa a chess variant or not?
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| « Last Edit: Mar 30th, 2010, 4:35pm by Eltripas » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Playing 'over the board'.
« Reply #13 on: Mar 30th, 2010, 4:45pm » |
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on Mar 30th, 2010, 4:33pm, Eltripas wrote:| And I don't change the names of the pieces when I explain the game with a chess set, just when I play I use the horses as horses. |
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Which is confusing because a rook can push a bishop, but a horse can push a rook. If you never say that a king is an elephant and a queen is a camel, then there is no need for a horse to be a horse.
Quote:| Anyways you didn't answered my question about if you consider arimaa a chess variant or not? |
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I would classify Arimaa as a chess variant, but I'm not fussed if other people say it is not. The similarities are superficial, and the differences in play are great. But ultimately, people will tend to like both games or dislike both games for the same reasons. I think they are very deeply similar in some ways, which is why the subtitle I chose for Beginning Arimaa was Chess Reborn Beyond Computer Comprehension.
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Adanac
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Re: Playing 'over the board'.
« Reply #14 on: Mar 30th, 2010, 5:00pm » |
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on Mar 30th, 2010, 4:45pm, Fritzlein wrote:| Which is confusing because a rook can push a bishop, but a horse can push a rook. If you never say that a king is an elephant and a queen is a camel, then there is no need for a horse to be a horse. |
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But chess players think of bishops & knights as being roughly equal in strength, so they still have to memorize 1 rule in your system so that they don't forget whether bishop is < or > knight.
If you tell them that horse = knight then they have to memorize this 1 rule instead. But now that leaves dog = rook & cat = bishop which is very intuitive. The very first time I ever played Arimaa was with a chess board and I played one game each with my wife and 1 with my brother. None of us had any difficulty remembering the order of strength of the pieces and I always liked the intuitive simplicity of horse = knight.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 30th, 2010, 5:00pm by Adanac » |
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