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Topic: Understanding (Read 1090 times) |
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CryingClown
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Understanding
« on: Apr 14th, 2010, 2:08pm » |
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What are the approximate values for the pieces? At what point should I push my pawns? Does advanced pawns leave a lot of weaknesses behind or is it just they are the easiest to capture?
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Tuks
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Re: Understanding
« Reply #1 on: Apr 14th, 2010, 3:38pm » |
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http://arimaa.janzert.com/eval.html
the values of the pieces aren't as static as in chess, for example; rabbits gain value as the game goes on
and its also somewhat to do with preference like the bishop/knight situation
rabbits are the easiest to capture so i would recommend keeping them back (using them to defend your own two traps at the start) unless there is an opening in the opponents defense in which case a goal threat (using the rabbit) can be very strong. rabbits are also good for sacrificing to gain a positional advantage or to avoid a major positional disadvantage, unlike in chess, a person can still be (and its often advised) very aggressive and have the initiative when down in material.
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CryingClown
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Re: Understanding
« Reply #2 on: Apr 14th, 2010, 4:08pm » |
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on Apr 14th, 2010, 3:38pm, Tuks wrote:http://arimaa.janzert.com/eval.html
the values of the pieces aren't as static as in chess, for example; rabbits gain value as the game goes on
and its also somewhat to do with preference like the bishop/knight situation
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Values are not very static in chess either. Soo many things change the fact. But still it is very good to have some kind of formula to remember. I am afraid your link is not the most helpful. Does any human have a clue yet?
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Adanac
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Re: Understanding
« Reply #3 on: Apr 14th, 2010, 4:32pm » |
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on Apr 14th, 2010, 4:08pm, CryingClown wrote:
Values are not very static in chess either. Soo many things change the fact. But still it is very good to have some kind of formula to remember. I am afraid your link is not the most helpful. Does any human have a clue yet? |
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They're far less static in Arimaa than Chess though. For example, in the opening maybe 2 cats and 2 rabbits are roughly equal to a camel. But in the endgame the 2 cats and 2 rabbits are far stronger than the camel. In the opening 2 rabbits might comparable in value to a dog, but the 2 rabbits are much stronger in the endgame. A camel is worth more than 3 rabbits in the opening but the reverse is usually true in the endgame.
As a general rule, quantity of pieces becomes more valuable than quality as the game progresses. And rabbits increase significantly in value in the endgame, especially the far advanced ones.
Once you have one or two strong pieces entrenched around an enemy trap (i.e. a camel, horse and/or dog around at least one important square like b6 or c7), then you should usually advance rabbits on that half of the board.
It just takes some practice to get an instinctive feel for these things but it's hard to make exact formulas due to the fluid nature of the game.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 14th, 2010, 4:34pm by Adanac » |
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Isaac Grosof
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Re: Understanding
« Reply #4 on: Apr 14th, 2010, 9:13pm » |
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As to advanced pawns, or rabbits, if they are accompanied by other pieces, particularly the camel, they can be strong, but if they are on their own, they are week. This is true until the endgame, when advanced rabbits are almost always strong.
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Sorry about that one thing.
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rbarreira
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Re: Understanding
« Reply #5 on: Apr 14th, 2010, 11:40pm » |
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The problem with assigning fixed values to Arimaa's material is that unlike in chess, Arimaa pieces are basically the same as each other (rabbits excepted), just organized hierarchically. So the value of a piece depends on the existing opponent pieces, not just on its type.
For example, if a player has no cats or dogs, the other player's cats and dogs have exactly the same capabilites, therefore should have the same value.
That being said, some people have thought about this and assigned some values, for example:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=devTalk;action=display ;num=1171240256;start=0#0
However many people say that bomb's material evaluation is not very good, so...
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Tuks
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Re: Understanding
« Reply #6 on: Apr 15th, 2010, 12:26am » |
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on Apr 14th, 2010, 4:08pm, CryingClown wrote:
Values are not very static in chess either. Soo many things change the fact. But still it is very good to have some kind of formula to remember. I am afraid your link is not the most helpful. Does any human have a clue yet? |
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you would like a nice little formula like in chess that basically holds up the whole game, the difference is that in chess you have pieces that have different movements and so, have different strengths because they can cover different amounts of space but in arimaa, with no difference in movement, the strength of one piece is comparable to how many stronger pieces the opponent has (and whether they are in a position to influence the game) so obviously, that will fluctuate everytime there is a capture.
Basically, you can get hung up on values but its not going to do you any good because there isn't a set rule and there won't be any time soon. All you can do is get the feel like Adanac said and focus on strategy.
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CryingClown
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Re: Understanding
« Reply #7 on: Apr 15th, 2010, 3:30am » |
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One could analyse a bunch of games to determine the values. Though I am not sure if current numbers are enough and how good the computer games work. Still I believe there can be a formula even if not very easy. So adanac what you are saying is that if I have lost my elephant but gained a camel I should be happy to echange pieces?
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rbarreira
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Re: Understanding
« Reply #8 on: Apr 15th, 2010, 3:42am » |
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on Apr 15th, 2010, 3:30am, CryingClown wrote:| Still I believe there can be a formula even if not very easy. |
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There is more than one formula, see the link that Tuks posted.
What there isn't is an accepted set of fixed values for pieces.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 15th, 2010, 3:42am by rbarreira » |
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RonWeasley
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Re: Understanding
« Reply #9 on: Apr 15th, 2010, 4:50am » |
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on Apr 14th, 2010, 4:08pm, CryingClown wrote:
Does any human have a clue yet? |
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No.
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chessandgo
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Re: Understanding
« Reply #10 on: Apr 15th, 2010, 10:29am » |
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CryingClown, the value of a piece depends super heavily on the enemy (and maybe even friendly) pieces left on the board. As Adanac said m=CCRR as an opening trade (?), but in an endgame em <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ECCRR. So there cannot a "camel = X points" formula, only formulas considering the whole set of pieces left, in a non-additive way.
As for advancing Rabbits, it's a good idea on a side where you're strong (on a side where you're weak the Rabbit is in capture danger). It's a great idea in the endgame. I've been playing arimaa for 4 years, and Rabbit advances have become more and more common, and I expect advanced Rabbits' importance is going to continue growing steadily.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Understanding
« Reply #11 on: Apr 15th, 2010, 12:28pm » |
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on Apr 15th, 2010, 3:30am, CryingClown wrote:| One could analyse a bunch of games to determine the values. |
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In fact, no set values exist, as others have explained, so "the values" can't be determined. If you want to insist on numerical constants instead of believing the explanations, then we could change the title of this thread to "Formula" instead of "Understanding". 
As for advancing rabbits, you have the right concern: they are vulnerable to capture. This is more important than the holes they leave behind. One idea for when to start advancing rabbits is when you are ready to commit to sharing control of one of the enemy traps for the rest of the game. That's a big commitment, so choose wisely...
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| « Last Edit: Apr 15th, 2010, 12:34pm by Fritzlein » |
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FireBorn
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Re: Understanding
« Reply #12 on: May 5th, 2010, 8:09pm » |
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Don't pawns also "gain value" as they advance?
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Fritzlein
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Re: Understanding
« Reply #13 on: May 5th, 2010, 10:39pm » |
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on May 5th, 2010, 8:09pm, FireBorn wrote:| Don't pawns also "gain value" as they advance? |
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Yes, unless they lose value (due to being more vulnerable).
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Arimabuff
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Re: Understanding
« Reply #14 on: May 6th, 2010, 2:04am » |
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on May 5th, 2010, 10:39pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Yes, unless they lose value (due to being more vulnerable). |
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I think it's more a function of clutter. When there's only a few pieces scattered across the board, rabbits become extremely powerful.
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