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Topic: Using tools for improving a match game (Read 4246 times) |
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clojure
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Using tools for improving a match game
« on: Oct 6th, 2010, 7:15am » |
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I have got the impression that Arimaa community considers trying out moves before playing them out a neutral, or even recommended thing, since there is the expert mode, a.k.a. planning window.
This felt quite weird when I got to know Arimaa. I have a feeling that in go and chess the calculate-moves-in-one's-head is crucial part of the play, and it would be considered rude if it was found out that opponent used another viewer for trying out moves in an online game.
If the above is correct, it puts forward a question where is the borderline for permitted external help. Is the player allowed to use bots in helping his performance? If so, the human vs. bot challenge gets a bit problematic nature in my opinion, since the human side can use the opponent against itself.
Does all this have any relevance at all?
Personally I don't use the planning window since playing without it is more exciting and helps improving reading skills.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 6th, 2010, 7:19am by clojure » |
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rbarreira
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Re: Using tools for improving a match game
« Reply #1 on: Oct 6th, 2010, 7:53am » |
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I'm not sure that people actually use the planning window in non-postal games. Just the time to start it up and move pieces around might be better spent thinking instead. Maybe in some very specific situations?
As for using bots and how much aid is accepted, the challenge rules state this:
Quote:| The human player may use an aid such as a physical game board or a computer program so that pieces can be moved to assist in planning a move. No aid may be used which suggests a move or provides any information about the move aside from the position score defined in the Arimaa match rules. |
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Nombril
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Re: Using tools for improving a match game
« Reply #2 on: Oct 6th, 2010, 11:56am » |
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I agree with rbarreira: I use the planning tool for postal games, and when studying the mistakes I've made. I am sometimes tempted to use expert mode to try out a line during a 'live' game, but so far I just visualize it in my head.
It seems the number of pieces that can move leads to a lot more 'details' that need to be remembered about a position in only a few turns as compared to Chess and Go.
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novacat
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Re: Using tools for improving a match game
« Reply #3 on: Oct 6th, 2010, 5:10pm » |
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I sometimes use expert mode in interactive games when I consider unclear or experimental moves. I tend to think slowly, so it mostly helps me see obvious errors quickly. I also tend to run low on time if I use it too much.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Using tools for improving a match game
« Reply #4 on: Oct 6th, 2010, 7:28pm » |
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In games faster than 2 minutes per move, the planning window actually hurts my play. Games that are exactly two minutes per move are borderline for whether it helps or hurts me. Only in postal games am I positive that the plan window helps me.
Of course getting move suggestions or evaluations from bots is against the rules. There is a small gray area in that being told what moves are legal and being shown the position could be considered "machine assistance", but to me that seems very different.
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clojure
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Re: Using tools for improving a match game
« Reply #5 on: Oct 6th, 2010, 7:59pm » |
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on Oct 6th, 2010, 7:28pm, Fritzlein wrote:| There is a small gray area in that being told what moves are legal and being shown the position could be considered "machine assistance", but to me that seems very different. |
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I have an example that relates to shogi. There is a famous rule that allows one to put a captured piece back to board. But there's exception: it's illegal to put two pawns on same column. If one does that, it's a lost game.
A japanese amateur dan that is having a youtube channel on shogi seems to consider that this is an important part of shogi culture and thinks that in even in online games one should be able to make this illegal move.
There is also other losing moves, for example the western chess concept of infinite check is not advantegous for the checker. The idea being that to accept a draw one must have a opportunity not to accept it.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 6th, 2010, 7:59pm by clojure » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Using tools for improving a match game
« Reply #6 on: Oct 8th, 2010, 12:04am » |
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on Oct 6th, 2010, 7:59pm, clojure wrote:I have an example that relates to shogi. There is a famous rule that allows one to put a captured piece back to board. But there's exception: it's illegal to put two pawns on same column. If one does that, it's a lost game.
A japanese amateur dan that is having a youtube channel on shogi seems to consider that this is an important part of shogi culture and thinks that in even in online games one should be able to make this illegal move. |
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That is a great example of how some people love tradition for the sake of tradition. What does forfeiting in case of an illegal move have to do with the greatness of shogi, or of any game? Strategy games should be about who is best at strategy, not about who is best at following rules.
In chess tournaments there is some reasonable penalty for making an illegal move, such as five minutes added to the opponent's clock. This is enough to prevent anyone from getting an advantage due to an intentional illegal move without turning chess into a contest in rule-following. For online games, players can be prevented from getting an advantage due to an illegal move simply by having the interface disallow illegal moves. Anyone who tries to make an illegal move simply loses the time it took them to try it. Why would you want anything more?
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clojure
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Re: Using tools for improving a match game
« Reply #7 on: Oct 8th, 2010, 1:24am » |
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on Oct 8th, 2010, 12:04am, Fritzlein wrote:
That is a great example of how some people love tradition for the sake of tradition. What does forfeiting in case of an illegal move have to do with the greatness of shogi, or of any game? Strategy games should be about who is best at strategy, not about who is best at following rules.
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It's hard to argue for, and I do find it odd. Still, I somehow can also understand how he feels. I cannot describe properly how I feel about this but the combination of the history of shogi, the psychological aspect, Japanese culture, etc might fit together. It can be a sthingy
ful of salt that brings forth emotional aspects.
Rules like these don't really matter on high level since everybody has played so many times, and subconsciously avoid it easily. Though, there still occurs rare occasional losses due to this, there's even a video'ed pro game of a double pawn dropping loss.
It may relate to other traditional aspects of the game. There's lots of small details how you should put your stones onto the board etc. It makes the playing feel special and help the brain adjust to "shogi atmosphere".
Sure, considered purely as intellectual game, the rule doesn't make sense. 
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omar
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Re: Using tools for improving a match game
« Reply #8 on: Oct 8th, 2010, 10:09am » |
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I think in a human vs human game the most important thing is that both players have the same tools available to them whether it be a client that knows nothing about the game rules and acts like a physical board or a client that goes to the extent of suggesting moves or playing as an opponent before submitting the move. Beyond that's it hard to say how much we should hang on to tradition and how much we should embrace new technology. I don't think there is any right answer and the choice will probably change over time. Currently we tend to prefer minimum assistance, but maybe in the future people will prefer cyborg style games.
In human vs machine games I think how much technology a human can use to improve performance should be limited, otherwise it would just becomes a machine vs machine game. Using technology to prepare the move, checking if the move is legal and manually manipulating the state of the game to plan a move I think is about the extent of assistance we should allow. Using technology to assist beyond that (such as highlighting threatened pieces or potential blunders) would cause the game to not reflect the natural ability of the human player. I suppose a bot developer could argue that even this level of assistance has enhanced the natural ability of the human player compared to playing with a physical board. I would have to agree, but to keep things fair do we also want go to the extent of requiring the bot to use a camera to look at the board and physically move the pieces and press the clock
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Nombril
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Re: Using tools for improving a match game
« Reply #9 on: Oct 16th, 2010, 4:27pm » |
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I was wondering - is using material evaluator formulas (by hand or using the page Janzert has made available online) considered considered an allowable tool for use while playing, or something that is off limits? This is probably only applicable to a postal game.
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Hirocon
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Re: Using tools for improving a match game
« Reply #10 on: Oct 16th, 2010, 5:01pm » |
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I frequently use the planning window in interactive games. Of course, I frequently find myself under time pressure, so maybe the planning window isn't actually helping me.
Another thing I'm guilty of is using the material evaluators to decide if I should accept and/or initiate a trade sequence.
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Sconibulus
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Re: Using tools for improving a match game
« Reply #11 on: Oct 16th, 2010, 5:14pm » |
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I've never looked at material evaluators to decide things, but I have used expert mode in the middle of the game. The plan window seems to take more time to load and such than it's worth.
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rbarreira
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Re: Using tools for improving a match game
« Reply #12 on: Oct 16th, 2010, 5:52pm » |
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The World Championship rules state:
Quote:| Players are forbidden from using advice or suggestions from others or programs while playing the games. |
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I'd say a material evaluator definitely counts as using advice from a program, and if this rule is good enough for the world championship it's probably also good enough for other games...
The above might not make much sense for postal games of course, since on those you would have the time to calculate the evaluation yourself anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if some people disagree though, since it's a sort of a slippery slope...
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chessandgo
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Re: Using tools for improving a match game
« Reply #13 on: Oct 17th, 2010, 3:53am » |
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I sometimes use the expert mode in interactive games too, and it probably hurts my play too I used to use it a lot at some point, but it felt like I missed even more first move answers than usual.
And I strongly agree with this
on Oct 8th, 2010, 10:09am, omar wrote:| I think in a human vs human game the most important thing is that both players have the same tools available to them |
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so it's cool that the standard game client does as much as is technically possible and allowed, making sure that everyone plays with the same tools.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 17th, 2010, 3:55am by chessandgo » |
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Nombril
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Re: Using tools for improving a match game
« Reply #14 on: Oct 17th, 2010, 9:53am » |
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on Oct 8th, 2010, 10:09am, omar wrote:In human vs machine games I think how much technology a human can use to improve performance should be limited, otherwise it would just becomes a machine vs machine game. Using technology to prepare the move, checking if the move is legal ...
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Does the game engine warn a bot that it has submitted an illegal move, and allow them to put in a new one? With the illegal moves sometimes submitted by bots, I was wondering if they just didn't 'know' how to find and submit a second move, or weren't given that "tool" that humans are given? (Of course, this doesn't help if the clock is running out anyway...)
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