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Topic: When would you resign? (Read 5000 times) |
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Trick
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Re: When would you resign?
« Reply #1 on: Feb 22nd, 2013, 3:04pm » |
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I was told not to resign when I first came here last week. 
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browni3141
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Re: When would you resign?
« Reply #2 on: Feb 22nd, 2013, 7:36pm » |
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In general I resign when I don't want to play anymore, usually due to the fact that the position is nearly absolutely hopeless.
In that game I would resign after 40s almost for sure, possibly slightly earlier if it were not an event game. It's just ridiculous to me to keep playing in such a position. Maybe I'd capture the horse out of spite, and then resign 
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hyperpape
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Re: When would you resign?
« Reply #3 on: Feb 22nd, 2013, 7:50pm » |
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on Feb 22nd, 2013, 3:04pm, Trick wrote:| I was told not to resign when I first came here last week. |
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You should rarely resign as a beginner. The lessons are too valuable. I'm polling decent (better than me  players).
In general, Arimaa has a lot of traps to it, so unless you're really good, winning a won game is tough.
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| « Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2013, 7:51pm by hyperpape » |
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chessandgo
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Re: When would you resign?
« Reply #4 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 6:51am » |
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Yeah, browni gave me crap in the chatroom for not resgining. However, as a recovered chess player, I feel pretty good about not resigning. Even for a chess player, I used to resign ridiculously early. Don't tempt me into falling back into my old ways 
If your grief is that the game lasted too long, I'll put half the blame on Boo for not going for a goal attack earlier, and shoulder the second half.
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hyperpape
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Re: When would you resign?
« Reply #5 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 8:47am » |
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Interesting. I am not a chess player, but had thought that the norms of chess would favor resigning in such a position.
I thought about saying something like "don't take this personally, chessandgo." I wasn't watching the game, and I'm not annoyed.
I think a lot of Arimaa players do take the approach of never resigning.
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robinz
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Re: When would you resign?
« Reply #6 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 9:55am » |
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I resign when I know the game is lost - to me this is normal in all "serious" abstract strategy games. While I know it is discouraged here, I'm not really sure why - I think it's supposedly for the sake of the spectators, but I doubt they enjoy seeing a foregone conclusion being wrapped up.
But then, these days I only play autopostal games of Arimaa, and in this context I think the argument for resigning is much easier to make. Who wants to sit through 2 or 3 more weeks of pointless moves while your opponent finishes you off? I have had at least one opponent deliberately push my rabbit onto the goal line when in a lost position, which I thought was a cute way of resigning, and I have done the same thing myself since.
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Fritzlein
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Re: When would you resign?
« Reply #7 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 10:39am » |
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on Feb 22nd, 2013, 1:51pm, hyperpape wrote:
I would probably resign on move 40, if I didn't get demoralized and resign sooner, but I thoroughly admire chessandgo for fighting to the death. I wish I were more like him. He has the heart of a champion, and that may be as much responsible for his winning four Arimaa World Championships as his objective skill at the game. Indeed, he might second my guess that I am his equal in strategy and tactics, but he has bested me in tournament results because he has the better attitude, which makes him the better fighter. Mostly games are won and lost by knowledge and skill, but in the close ones, psychology can be the deciding factor.
on Feb 22nd, 2013, 7:36pm, browni3141 wrote:| In general I resign when I don't want to play anymore |
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I'm sure the primary guiding principle will always be quitting when you don't feel like continuing. In addition to the principle of "quitting when you don't feel like continuing", however, there needs to be some level of respect for one's opponent. This is a tricky business, because opponents don't all feel the same.
One opponent might feel that you are expressing confidence in their ability to convert a win if you don't make them play it out. They might be flattered. In my youth I felt that way about chess. Once I suggested to my opponent that he resign in an absolutely hopeless position, and his coach cussed me out for it after the game. From this I learned that it is dangerous to try to impose my ideas about resignation on someone else.
On the other hand, your opponent might be enjoying the game for the sake of the game, and be miffed that being behind is all it takes to make you quit. Once in the Arimaa gameroom my opponent resigned when I got the upper hand, and then immediately challenged me to another game. That made me think, "You aren't in this for the joy of struggle; you only enjoy it when you are winning." So I let them find someone else to play and experience the joy of winning.
I'm definitely not trying to say consideration for your opponent should override your own feelings. Yes, at some point a game can get so lopsided it no longer feels like a struggle. It doesn't feel like real Arimaa to be fighting on when you have too little to fight with. Also I agree with robinz that the longer the time control, the fewer the benefits and the greater the personal sacrifice (both time and effort) in continuing when you don't want to.
I just wanted to point out that it is respectful, when considering resignation, to not only think of what you personally are getting out of playing on, but also to consider your opponent's feelings. Some time you might be in a position where you are playing on out of respect rather than pure enjoyment, and then it can be useful to remember the reasons people have given for playing on as emotional tips rather than as mandates. Dwell on the possibility of coming from behind and the probability of learning something by fighting to the end, not as fetters imposed on you, but as ways to enjoy doing something you had already decided to do for another reason. And maybe, just maybe, you can feel happy that you are behaving like chessandgo, the greatest Arimaa champion of all time.
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| « Last Edit: Feb 23rd, 2013, 10:55am by Fritzlein » |
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Boo
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Re: When would you resign?
« Reply #8 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 12:52pm » |
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You should never resign event games. The opponent might disconnect having goal in 1.
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robinz
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Re: When would you resign?
« Reply #9 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 12:59pm » |
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on Feb 23rd, 2013, 12:52pm, Boo wrote:
You should never resign event games. The opponent might disconnect having goal in 1. |
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I'm sorry - but why would you ever want to win in this way? Even in a world championship game, there is hardly big money involved - why would you accept a "win" reached by pure luck when you had a lost position.
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Boo
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Re: When would you resign?
« Reply #10 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 2:00pm » |
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Quote:| I'm sorry - but why would you ever want to win in this way? Even in a world championship game, there is hardly big money involved - why would you accept a "win" reached by pure luck when you had a lost position. |
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Have you ever played friendly a chess blitz game, and had a completely lost position and get a win because opponent runs out of time and you have just one pawn remaining which was going to be captured the next turn? No? It is hard to explain then. Why do people keep playing in deadly lost positions, even it is a friendly game? Maybe they have fun hoping for a miracle? And they are happy when they see a miracle happen.
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Hippo
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Re: When would you resign?
« Reply #11 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 3:22pm » |
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Have you seen clyring x Nombril game where at 59g Rd7 was goal at 2? And the game really ended at 60 ...
Yes, I was happy at WC2011 winning against Harren to his disconnection, but I was offering him my resignation ... .
Boo won on rabbits disconnection when rabbits had goal in 2 on the board ...
Resigning in event games and espacially WC is a bad habbit, bad connection is the part of the game  .
Resigning in causal games ... I would ask the opponent if he don't mind me resigning ...
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browni3141
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Re: When would you resign?
« Reply #12 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 3:35pm » |
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on Feb 23rd, 2013, 10:39am, Fritzlein wrote:
I just wanted to point out that it is respectful, when considering resignation, to not only think of what you personally are getting out of playing on, but also to consider your opponent's feelings. Some time you might be in a position where you are playing on out of respect rather than pure enjoyment, and then it can be useful to remember the reasons people have given for playing on as emotional tips rather than as mandates. Dwell on the possibility of coming from behind and the probability of learning something by fighting to the end, not as fetters imposed on you, but as ways to enjoy doing something you had already decided to do for another reason. And maybe, just maybe, you can feel happy that you are behaving like chessandgo, the greatest Arimaa champion of all time. |
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But in my eyes I do play to the very end. There are some positions that will simply not be lost by a competent player, ignoring possibilities that that player not be able to continue playing. If I win because my opponent was abducted by aliens (unkind enough to provide him with internet access), then I have not won because of the strength of my moves, and I don't really deserve to win in my opinion. When there is absolutely no reasonable (somewhat subjective, I know) hope that you can win, the only reasons I can think of to continue playing are hoping that your opponent will time-out, which I think is in a way worse than losing in a long time control game, hoping that your opponent makes a completely brain dead move that not even a novice would make, which is not respecting your opponent's strength, or playing on just because of the pressure from the community to do so. I do not respect or admire anybody that plays on for these reasons. I'm sorry for being so harsh, but this is how I feel. Someone feel free to bring their own reason as to why they continue playing, and I may change my mind, but it's unlikely.
The last sentence I have a problem with. Think of all the chess and Arimaa world champions you know of. Right off the top of my head there is one of each that I would not be happy to behave like.
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Have you ever played friendly a chess blitz game, and had a completely lost position and get a win because opponent runs out of time and you have just one pawn remaining which was going to be captured the next turn? No? It is hard to explain then. Why do people keep playing in deadly lost positions, even it is a friendly game? Maybe they have fun hoping for a miracle? And they are happy when they see a miracle happen.
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I'm not sure I've had that situation exactly, but I'm sure I've probably won bullet games on time where I was down to my last piece and losing. Bullet/blitz is completely different. The clock is a part of the game, and winning on time is much easier to justify. Few would want Arimaa World Championship games to be won on time because one player couldn't continue playing. Optimally, ALL games would be decided without the clock being a significant factor. How would you feel if you were in the final game with chessandgo or whomever, and he was winning, you without hope of winning on the board, and your opponent timed-out, therefore making you world champion? Would you feel good about that? Would you consider yourself the legitimate world champion? I wouldn't.
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chessandgo
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Re: When would you resign?
« Reply #13 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 5:23pm » |
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browni's post made me realize that, were it not for hanzack, I would be the worst behaved arimaa champ ever. Thank you hanzack.
Oh, and thank you Fritz. Although you are, as always, way (way) too kind with me
In a clearly won/lost position, I switch to "win in fewest move possible" mode. I think it's good training, especially in a tournament game. There is always a different kind of pressure to a WC game. We don't get to play world champ games often, so we might as well play the win-in-fewest-moves game. Even more than goal-attack training, having more goal-attack-in-high-pressure-environment experience is very valuable.
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robinz
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Re: When would you resign?
« Reply #14 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 6:08pm » |
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on Feb 23rd, 2013, 2:00pm, Boo wrote:
Have you ever played friendly a chess blitz game, and had a completely lost position and get a win because opponent runs out of time and you have just one pawn remaining which was going to be captured the next turn? No? It is hard to explain then. Why do people keep playing in deadly lost positions, even it is a friendly game? Maybe they have fun hoping for a miracle? And they are happy when they see a miracle happen.
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Yes I have, although not for a very long time ago now (I haven't played any chess for more or less 10 years). Blitz games are different, as you both know that the possibility of a sudden loss on time is a reality, even in the most completely won position. And, to return to an Arimaa World Championship game, I think it is fine to play on if you think it possible that your opponent will lose on time, even in a won position.
It wasn't this possibility that I was arguing against, it was playing on in a totally lost position, presumably when one's opponent has plenty of time, purely because they might disconnect and gift us an win that is nothing to do with either how well we played in the game or how well we managed our time.
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