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Topic: Move 12 (Read 9726 times) |
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mdk
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #45 on: Aug 28th, 2007, 5:22pm » |
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on Aug 28th, 2007, 2:16pm, Fritzlein wrote:Nice summary JDB. If we can capture a rabbit in f6 without immediately having to give up ours in c3, we are ahead. However, it seems that even in Gold's best lines, we can return the c3 rabbit for an equal position and no risk.
I have updated the analysis tree with everyone's suggestions, plus a few new lines, plus at least a little analysis of each of the moves. I have ordered the moves and branches approximately best to worst, according to minimax on the tree and my guesstimate of the nodes. I think we are a tiny bit ahead ahead with either the double pull or 99of9's move, and I'm not sure which I prefer. We need to look more at the current top variation to see if Gold has a refutation.
Gold does seem to have an outright refutation for safetying our rabbit with 12b ed4n ed5w rb6e ha6e. Between the similar moves 12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n dd8s and 12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6n, the former clearly has the better fourth step, so we needn't pay too much attention to the latter. In contrast, it is an interesting choice between the similar moves 12b ed4w ec4n Hc3n md6e and 12b ed4w ec4n Hc3n dd8s. Advancing the dog for the fourth step gives us the possibility to play a very sharp horse flip in one of the main lines.
The analysis tree:
[edit]...
12b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n (pull rabbit twice)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e rb5s (pull rabbit twice, blocking off c4)
. . 13b ha6s ha5s md6w ed4s
. . . 14w Ec4n Ec5w mc4s Rc1e
. . . . 14b ed3n ed4w mc5n mc6w
. . . . . 15w Db3s Hc3w Hg3n Hg4n
. . . . . . 15b hh5n Rh4n hh6w Rh5n
. . . . . . . 16w Hg5w Rh6n mb6w Eb5n (unclear)
. . . . . . 15b ec4e ed4e ee4e ef4e
. . . . . . . 16w Eb5e Ec5e Ed5e Ee5n (unclear)
. . . . 14b rb4e ha4s Db3n ha3e
. . . . . 15w rc4e Db4e Cc2s Md2w
. . . . . . 15b hb3w ha3n Ra2n ha4n
. . . . . . . 16w Dc4w rd4w Hc3w rc4s (unclear)
. . . . 14b rb4e mc5n mc6w ha4s
. . . . . 15w Db3s Hc3w rc4s Hg3n
. . . . . . 16b hh5w Ra4n ha3n Ra2n
. . . . . . . 16w Eb5w mb6s mb5e Ea5e (unclear)
. . . 14w Db3s Hc3w Hb3w rb4s
. . . . 14b hh5n Rh4n hh6w Rh5n
. . . . . 15w rb3e Ha3e Ec4n Ec5e (only rabbit save)
. . . . . . 15b ha4s mc6w dd8s rg7e (Silver +=)
. . 13b edd4s md6w mc6w ha6s
. . . 14w Db3s Hc3w Hb3w rb4s
. . . . 14b hh5n Rh3n hh6w Ra5n
. . . . . 15w rb3e Ha3e Ec4n Ec5w (likely rabbit trade =?)
. . 13b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4s (each Silver horse pulls a rabbit)
. . . 14w Eb5e Ec5e md6e Ed5n (counter-attack)
. . . . 14b cc7w cb7s md6e dd8s
. . . . . 15w Hc3n Hc4n Cc2w Md2w (Gold's attack is better)
. . . . 14b Db3s ha3e rb8s rb7s (very sharp but favors Gold?)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s rb5s Ec5w (flip rabbit)
. . 13b hh5n Rh4n ed4w rb4w (we win race unless Gold complicates)
. . . 14w Eb5e Ec5e md6e Ed5n (complicating?)
. . . . 14b ha6e me6e Rh5w hh6n (he's in more trouble than us)
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regarding the line
12b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n (pull rabbit twice)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e rb5s (pull rabbit twice, blocking off c4)
. . 13b edd4s md6w mc6w ha6s
. . . 14w Db3s Hc3w Hb3w rb4s
i would continue
. . . . 14b ha5s hh5n Rh4n dd8s
and i think we are better. this seems similar to me to the lines that fritz and i were discussing where silver advanced the horse twice on 13b and only moved the camel once. i think we are better here for the same reasons we are in the other lines. i'm curious to here what fritz and others think. i do not, however, think that this line will lead to a simple rabbit trade where the position is left about equal.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 28th, 2007, 7:42pm by mdk » |
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99of9
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #46 on: Aug 28th, 2007, 5:31pm » |
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Quote:| 12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6n (occupy c4, pull rabbit, retreat horse) |
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I don't have the board in front of me, but I just realized I misread the original suggestion of this move. I thought it meant advance the a-file horse. Which I quite liked actually. So there's a new option:
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6s
Again I don't have time, but let me know if your refutations still apply.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #47 on: Aug 28th, 2007, 8:08pm » |
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on Aug 28th, 2007, 5:22pm, mdk wrote:
regarding the line
12b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n (pull rabbit twice)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e rb5s (pull rabbit twice, blocking off c4)
. . 13b edd4s md6w mc6w ha6s
. . . 14w Db3s Hc3w Hb3w rb4s
. . . . 14b ha5s hh5n Rh4n dd8s |
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Wow, that 14b really shuts down Gold's ability to force a rabbit trade. I think these lines are teaching me that even in a "race" I am far too eager to make racing moves instead of positional moves. Not only was I too eager to pull the rabbit on 14b, but I was too eager to pull the rabbit on 14w.
How would you continue for Silver if Gold preemptively freezes the horse and camel?
12b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n (pull rabbit twice)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e rb5s (pull rabbit twice, blocking off c4)
. . 13b edd4s md6w mc6w ha6s
. . . 14w Db3s Hc3w Ec4n Ec5w
With the silver camel frozen, Gold is threatening to advance his g3-horse to g6. Also, more subtly, Gold is threatening 15w rb4e Hb3n rc4e Hb4e, with camel flip to follow.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #48 on: Aug 28th, 2007, 9:02pm » |
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on Aug 28th, 2007, 5:31pm, 99of9 wrote:12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6s
Again I don't have time, but let me know if your refutations still apply. |
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Revisiting the line, I'm not sure my "refutation" applies even to the horse retreat, never mind the horse advance. This is why we need people double-checking any lines I give!
Anyway, on second inspection I'd give a different line, but I still think Gold is better after the horse retreat.
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6n (occupy c4, pull rabbit, retreat horse)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s Db3s Hc3w
. . 13b hh4n Rh3n hh5n Rh4n
. . . 14w Ec5e Ed5w md6s Hb3n
. . . . 14b ec4e md5n hh6w Rh5n
. . . . . 15w Hb4w rb5s Db2n Ec5e
The horse advance is trickier to meet, and it foils my main line. For one thing, the horse could dart in and get a second rabbit pull, although I'm not sure that's so good:
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6s (occupy c4, pull rabbit, advance horse)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s Db3s Hc3w
. . 13b ha5s ha4s ha3n Ra2n
. . . 14w rb5s Ec5w Eb5e Ec5e
But at the end of the first line I gave the horse can definitely dive in to good effect:
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6s (occupy c4, pull rabbit, advance horse)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s Db3s Hc3w
. . 13b hh4n Rh3n hh5n Rh4n
. . . 14w Ec5e Ed5w md6s Hb3n
. . . . 14b ec4e md5n hh6w Rh5n
. . . . . 15w Hb4w rb5s Db2n Ec5e
. . . . . . 15b ha5e rb4e hb5s ed4s
so Gold needs a new plan. Maybe
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6s (occupy c4, pull rabbit, advance horse)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s Db3s Hc3w
. . 13b hh4n Rh3n hh5n Rh4n
. . . 14w Hb3n Db2n Hb4w rb5s
But Silver is at worst equal there, and probably a bit ahead.
In short, after a cursory glance, the horse advance looks fine.
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mdk
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #49 on: Aug 28th, 2007, 9:06pm » |
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on Aug 28th, 2007, 8:08pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Wow, that 14b really shuts down Gold's ability to force a rabbit trade. I think these lines are teaching me that even in a "race" I am far too eager to make racing moves instead of positional moves. Not only was I too eager to pull the rabbit on 14b, but I was too eager to pull the rabbit on 14w.
How would you continue for Silver if Gold preemptively freezes the horse and camel?
12b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n (pull rabbit twice)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e rb5s (pull rabbit twice, blocking off c4)
. . 13b edd4s md6w mc6w ha6s
. . . 14w Db3s Hc3w Ec4n Ec5w
With the silver camel frozen, Gold is threatening to advance his g3-horse to g6. Also, more subtly, Gold is threatening 15w rb4e Hb3n rc4e Hb4e, with camel flip to follow. |
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I'm glad to hear that you are learning as much as the rest of us from this game Fritz. I guess this just proves what a great idea this game was.
Ok i have a couple of ideas. First:
. . . . 14b cc7w dd8s dd7w xxxx.
This allows the camel to avoid being flipped and also allows it to quickly cross, avoiding any possibility of the g3 horse advancing, the two things you mentioned fritz.
I'm not sure what would be the best way to use the fourth step yet. any ideas?
The other is:
. . . . 14b ed3n Md2n ed4w Md3n.
This is certainly different than the other moves we have been looking at in this line but i believe that with this move we can take advantage of the position of the gold phant.
As usual I'm looking foward to hearing what everyone thinks.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #50 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 1:54pm » |
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I find I don't have time to weigh in on this. I think I want to see a response to mdk and then I'm going to start the vote. The top two moves are close and I'd like to see mdk's suggestion commented.
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mdk
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #51 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 2:38pm » |
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on Aug 28th, 2007, 9:02pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Revisiting the line, I'm not sure my "refutation" applies even to the horse retreat, never mind the horse advance. This is why we need people double-checking any lines I give!
Anyway, on second inspection I'd give a different line, but I still think Gold is better after the horse retreat.
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6n (occupy c4, pull rabbit, retreat horse)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s Db3s Hc3w
. . 13b hh4n Rh3n hh5n Rh4n
. . . 14w Ec5e Ed5w md6s Hb3n
. . . . 14b ec4e md5n hh6w Rh5n
. . . . . 15w Hb4w rb5s Db2n Ec5e
The horse advance is trickier to meet, and it foils my main line. For one thing, the horse could dart in and get a second rabbit pull, although I'm not sure that's so good:
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6s (occupy c4, pull rabbit, advance horse)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s Db3s Hc3w
. . 13b ha5s ha4s ha3n Ra2n
. . . 14w rb5s Ec5w Eb5e Ec5e
But at the end of the first line I gave the horse can definitely dive in to good effect:
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6s (occupy c4, pull rabbit, advance horse)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s Db3s Hc3w
. . 13b hh4n Rh3n hh5n Rh4n
. . . 14w Ec5e Ed5w md6s Hb3n
. . . . 14b ec4e md5n hh6w Rh5n
. . . . . 15w Hb4w rb5s Db2n Ec5e
. . . . . . 15b ha5e rb4e hb5s ed4s
so Gold needs a new plan. Maybe
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6s (occupy c4, pull rabbit, advance horse)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s Db3s Hc3w
. . 13b hh4n Rh3n hh5n Rh4n
. . . 14w Hb3n Db2n Hb4w rb5s
But Silver is at worst equal there, and probably a bit ahead.
In short, after a cursory glance, the horse advance looks fine.
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Fritz... did you consider any other moves on 13w for gold?
For example:
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6s (occupy c4, pull rabbit, advance horse)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s rb5s Eb5w
. . 13b hh4n Rh3n hh5n Rh4n
. . . 14w Eb5e Ec5e Ed5e md6s
and suddenly our position doesn't seem so favorable as our camel is threatened and gold is threatening an EH attack. So how should we continue on 13b as clearly the move i suggest here is bad for us?
Also, I, like Ron, would like to hear some comments on my suggestion.
[edit]
actually
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6s (occupy c4, pull rabbit, advance horse)
. 13w Eb5e Ec5e Ed5e md6s
may be a better line for gold so id like to know how we would respond to both potential moves.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2007, 3:18pm by mdk » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #52 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 4:46pm » |
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on Aug 29th, 2007, 1:54pm, RonWeasley wrote:| I find I don't have time to weigh in on this. I think I want to see a response to mdk and then I'm going to start the vote. The top two moves are close and I'd like to see mdk's suggestion commented. |
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I'll comment on mdk's line if I have time tonight, but if I don't, I think we can trust his analysis, or vote on our own instincts. We should be less worried that no one has responded to a sub-variation of a heavily analyzed move than that nobody has responded to the top line of my analysis tree:
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n dd8s (occupy c4, pull rabbit, advance dog)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s Db3s Hc3w
. . 13b ha4n Ra3n ha5n Ra4n
. . . 14w Ec5e Ed5e md4s Hg3n
. . . . 14b ha6e Ra5n rb5e md5n (Silver seems better)
Is everyone just going to take my word that we are better off if we play 99of9's suggestion?
On the one hand, it is better to extend an active discussion than to extend a discussion where nothing is being said, but even so, we don't collectively have time to examine everything, and we ultimately will have to vote with some questions unanswered.
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mdk
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #53 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 5:09pm » |
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on Aug 29th, 2007, 4:46pm, Fritzlein wrote:
I'll comment on mdk's line if I have time tonight, but if I don't, I think we can trust his analysis, or vote on our own instincts. We should be less worried that no one has responded to a sub-variation of a heavily analyzed move than that nobody has responded to the top line of my analysis tree:
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n dd8s (occupy c4, pull rabbit, advance dog)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s Db3s Hc3w
. . 13b ha4n Ra3n ha5n Ra4n
. . . 14w Ec5e Ed5e md4s Hg3n
. . . . 14b ha6e Ra5n rb5e md5n (Silver seems better)
Is everyone just going to take my word that we are better off if we play 99of9's suggestion?
On the one hand, it is better to extend an active discussion than to extend a discussion where nothing is being said, but even so, we don't collectively have time to examine everything, and we ultimately will have to vote with some questions unanswered. |
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Ok ill question your line Fritz... your notation must be wrong as this line isn't even possible!!!!!
i'll add some analysis in a bit but i thought i should throw this out there
[edit]
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n dd8s (occupy c4, pull rabbit, advance dog)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s Db3s Hc3w
. . 13b hh4n Rh3n hh5n Rh4n
. . . 14w Ec5e Ed5e md4s Hg3n (i believe this is what you intended)
. . . . 14b ha6e Ra5n rb5e md5n (this move isn't legal)
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| « Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2007, 5:26pm by mdk » |
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99of9
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #54 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 5:11pm » |
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on Aug 23rd, 2007, 6:14pm, Fritzlein wrote:This seems idiot simple.
Is this one of those rare moves on which a snap vote is appropriate? |
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Yep, I think you're right Fritz, let's vote  . Gee I love that you're bold enough to risk statements like that.
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mdk
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #55 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 5:23pm » |
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12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n dd8s (occupy c4, pull rabbit, advance dog)
. 13w Eb5e Ec5e Ed5e md6s
this is a very similar position to
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6n
. 13w Eb5e Ec5e Ed5e md6s
perhaps there is some refutation to both of these lines, but no one has offered one yet and until someone does I do not feel comfortable playing either of these moves.
I think as a general note we need to be more aware of the potential for chessandgo to attack our camel. Collectively we have been so focused on the rabbit pulling race that we have been ignoring larger threats that either side can potentially make.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2007, 5:36pm by mdk » |
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mdk
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #56 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 5:54pm » |
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also i don't have time now but could someone put together an updated analysis tree?
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mdk
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #57 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 5:59pm » |
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on Aug 28th, 2007, 2:16pm, Fritzlein wrote:Nice summary JDB. If we can capture a rabbit in f6 without immediately having to give up ours in c3, we are ahead. However, it seems that even in Gold's best lines, we can return the c3 rabbit for an equal position and no risk.
I have updated the analysis tree with everyone's suggestions, plus a few new lines, plus at least a little analysis of each of the moves. I have ordered the moves and branches approximately best to worst, according to minimax on the tree and my guesstimate of the nodes. I think we are a tiny bit ahead ahead with either the double pull or 99of9's move, and I'm not sure which I prefer. We need to look more at the current top variation to see if Gold has a refutation.
Gold does seem to have an outright refutation for safetying our rabbit with 12b ed4n ed5w rb6e ha6e. Between the similar moves 12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n dd8s and 12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n ha6n, the former clearly has the better fourth step, so we needn't pay too much attention to the latter. In contrast, it is an interesting choice between the similar moves 12b ed4w ec4n Hc3n md6e and 12b ed4w ec4n Hc3n dd8s. Advancing the dog for the fourth step gives us the possibility to play a very sharp horse flip in one of the main lines.
The analysis tree:
12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n dd8s (occupy c4, pull rabbit, advance dog)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s Db3s Hc3w
. . 13b ha4n Ra3n ha5n Ra4n
. . . 14w Ec5e Ed5e md4s Hg3n
. . . . 14b ha6e Ra5n rb5e md5n (Silver seems better)
. . 13b ha6e rb5w ha4n Ra3n
. . . 14w Ec5e Ed5e md4s Hg3n
. . . . 14b ha5e Ra4n ec4e md5n
. . . . . 15w Ee5e Ef5w hg5w Hg4n
. . . . . . 15b md6e me6e hf5s hf4e (unclear)
. 13w Eb5e rb6s rb5s Ec5w (flip rabbit)
. . 13b rb4w hh4n Rh3n ha6e
...[edit]
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i don't know if this has been edited elsewhere or changed but this part of the analysis tree is riddled with unplayable moves
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| « Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2007, 5:59pm by mdk » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #58 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 10:13pm » |
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on Aug 28th, 2007, 9:06pm, mdk wrote:| I'm glad to hear that you are learning as much as the rest of us from this game Fritz. |
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Oh, yes, I am learning a ton. Indeed, the fact that I think I know something is often the biggest obstacle. For example, when I try to apply my intuitions from games with pure dual-lone-elephant attacks to this game with horses charging forward as well, it seems I usually get the wrong answer.
In the line
12b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n (pull rabbit twice)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e rb5s (pull rabbit twice, blocking off c4)
. . 13b edd4s md6w mc6w ha6s
. . . 14w Db3s Hc3w Ec4n Ec5w
. . . . 14b cc7w dd8s dd7w xxxx
I would look first at 15w rb4e Hb3n rc4e Hb4e. The camel is unfrozen, true, but it doesn't really have a better place to be. If it heads back to d6, then the gold elephant can push it to e6 and invite dueling EH attacks. The critical line is probably 15b rd4e ed3n Hc4n ed4w, but after 16w Hc5e Hd5e re4s He5s Gold looks fine.
In the line
12b hh3n Rh2n hh4n Rh3n (pull rabbit twice)
. 13w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e rb5s (pull rabbit twice, blocking off c4)
. . 13b edd4s md6w mc6w ha6s
. . . 14w Db3s Hc3w Ec4n Ec5w
. . . . 14b ed3n Md2n ed4w Md3n.
The gold camel is in danger, but I think this is compensated by its greater ability to access the east. In some lines it could come into play that we can threaten to take a horse hostage with our camel. 15w De2n De3n Md4s De4s, and Gold has very active pieces. One point is that now if Gold can frame the silver rabbit, Gold can later pull it to d2, forking and winning it, so just racing and capturing the h-rabbit is less likely to produce an advantage for Silver. My best guess at how Silver could play for advantage is to attack the exposed camel and dog on d3 and e3, but the timing is very tricky because Gold pieces are threatened as well. For example Silver could err with 15b ec4e ed4e Md3n dd8s 16w Hb3w rb4s rb3e Ha3s 16b Md4n ee4w Md5n ed4n 17w Eb5e mb6s mb5s Ec5w and Silver has lost a camel and a rabbit for a camel.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 12
« Reply #59 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 10:38pm » |
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This isn't the type of position I understand very well, but I will venture a summary of the opposing merits of the double rabbit pull and occupying c4.
If Silver pulls the rabbit twice, then chessandgo can pull in response, blocking us from c4, and forcing our elephant to defend from d3 if we want to play for advantage. This is not a bad square for our elephant, but to make it potent it seems we need to threaten some sort of action with our horse and/or camel on the same wing. All of mdk's proposed advances allow some sort of counter and complication, to wit:
13b ed4s ha6s ha5s ha4s Charging three with the horse allows our camel to be pushed east in an invitation to dueling EH attacks.
13b ed4s ha6s ha5s md6w Trading one horse step for moving our camel west allows the camel to be pulled south, which sort of forces the silver elephant back to c4, releasing the gold camel that was stuck on d2.
13b edd4s md6w mc6w ha6s Trading two horse steps for moving our camel west two allows Gold to freeze both at once with his elephant.
These lines all got more complex than simple racing rabbit pulls, and I have trouble evaluating them. Also, there may be yet other good tries for 13b. All in all, however, I fail to find a way for Silver to force the dream scenario outlined by JDB, where we delay capture of our exposed rabbit while capturing Gold's exposed rabbit for a clear advantage. Rather it seems Silver's edge is more subtle, and requires that superior piece play to realize.
In contrast, 12b ed4w hh3n Rh2n dd8s is less ambitious and less wild. Placing our elephant on c4 is purely an attempt to temporarily delay capture of our exposed rabbit, not a threat to mount a rescue mission that Gold must guard against if our elephant is on d3. If our elephant on c4 is eventually pinned to our rabbit on c3, we will surely lose the rabbit when it is dragged to d3 and forked.
However, the delay should be long enough to capture chessandgo's rabbit, and perhaps get some play while he is taking the time to finish off ours. If he doesn't want to accept this slight disadvantage, then he is the one who is forced to seek complications, perhaps to his disadvantage.
As you may guess, I favor the calmer move, not because it is necessarily objectively better, but because it doesn't require us to charge forward in order to play for advantage. This is just a stylistic preference, and those who don't mind mixing it up by advancing pieces behind our exposed rabbit may like the greater tension inherent in pulling twice and eventually putting our elephant on d3.
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