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Topic: Move 21 (Read 6160 times) |
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #30 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 1:39pm » |
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I am slowly beginning to panic about our position. Pulling the dog with the horse also looks too slow. Possibly chessandgo doesn't need his elephant to defend the dog, because he has time to bring a horse around:
21b ha5s ha4e hb4w Dc4w
. 22w Ec5s Rf1n Hg3n Hg4n
. . 22b Db4n ha4e Db5n hb4n
. . . 23w Hg5w Hf5w He5w Hd5n (+=)
Why didn't I see troubles looming earlier? Since I don't like either of the front-runners, I'm going to look at some less popular alternatives.
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #31 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 1:43pm » |
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on Jan 23rd, 2008, 12:13pm, The_Jeh wrote:| I'm now becoming interested in Arimaa_master's original 21b ha5s ha4e Dc4e hb4e. |
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What did you have in mind after the already-proposed refutation?
21b ha5s ha4e Dc4e hb4e
. 22w hc4w Ec5s Dd4e De4e (+=)
I don't see a good follow-up, but I may be missing something.
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #32 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 2:14pm » |
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In light of my worries about already-proposed moves, I took a look at something else that hadn't been suggested, namely pushing the dog to b4 with our camel. It's all about saving time. After brief examination, I don't think chessandgo can afford to push our camel east twice. Apparently he also can't afford to push our camel back into the trap. Therefore he would likely push our camel east one time, which lets it loop back around and restart the dance. I wouldn't suggest this if we had another move that looked really strong, but as it stands, we may be best off plunging back into the maneuvers of the previous half-dozen moves.
21b Dc4w mc3n ha5s dd7s
. 22w mc4e Ec5s rb3e Db4s
. . 22b md4n md5w dd6w mc5w (?)
. 22w mc4e Ec5s rb3e Ha3e
. . 22b md4n md5w dd6s mc5w (?)
. 22w mc4s Ec5s Rf1n Hg3n
. . 22b Db4n ha4e Db5n hb4n (-+)
. 22w mc4e Ec5s md4e Ec4e
. . 22b ed3w ec3e Cc2n Cc3x hg6s (-+)
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #33 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 2:35pm » |
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on Jan 18th, 2008, 4:11pm, 99of9 wrote:Dd3w ed4s ha5s ****
it leaves us with a vague threat on his camel, and the sentinel c2 position (though after my game with mistre, perhaps this will result in our camel hostaged) |
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Perhaps we could avoid giving up the camel hostage, but we would have to be so worried about it that we couldn't get anything else done. Also, his horses would become fearless. I don't know what our plan would be after the following line:
21b ed3n Dd2n Cc2e mc3s
. 22w Dc4s rb3n Dc3w Ec5s
. . 22b Dd3w ed4s ha5s dd7s
. . . 23w Rc1e Rf1n Hg3n Hg4n (+=)
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The_Jeh
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Arimaa player #634
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #34 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 2:49pm » |
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on Jan 23rd, 2008, 1:43pm, Fritzlein wrote:
What did you have in mind after the already-proposed refutation?
21b ha5s ha4e Dc4e hb4e
. 22w hc4w Ec5s Dd4e De4e (+=)
I don't see a good follow-up, but I may be missing something. |
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I had forgotten about that refutation. All my attempts to respond so far either turn out bad or get extremely sharp. I'm afraid you're right about what we should do. No one said playing c&g would be easy.
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #35 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 3:10pm » |
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What would Bomb have us do?
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Soter
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Arimaa player #2381
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #36 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 3:12pm » |
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Quote:| Part of the trouble is that our elephant is currently on its best square on d3. If we use it to contain gold's dog, my superficially favorite move, we cede an excellent square. |
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But is this square ( and appropriate complementary squares on the board ) ALWAYS the best place for a phant? I'm not a first-rate player for sure, and I possess very limited knowledge about peculiarities of Arimaa strategy, but it seems to me that there must be some exceptions to the rule...
Quote:I will create an analysis tree from all current suggestions today, but first let me throw another option into the mix. The time may have come at last for us to threaten chessandgo's advanced rabbit with 21b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rh8s. The fourth step is rh8s insteaed of rg7e so that his camel can't make four steps to g5, freezing our horse. Chesssandgo's elephant can't defend f6 without losing material in the west. If either his horse or camel defend g6, it may create tactical opportunities for us. The rabbit pull is at least worth serious consideration.
[EDIT]
Oh, I see now that Soter beat me to it.
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Haven't analysed much but equal trade is IMHO all we can hope for if c&g attacks our trap in return. I really would like to be wrong.
I wish I could help you, but got little time. I'll be more active in February.
P.S. One small suggestion: maybe we should "evangelize" a bit and ask players to join the cause? The more eyes scanning the board the better - especially when uncertanity rules and position is not clear.
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RonWeasley
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Harry's friend (Arimaa player #441)
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #37 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 3:30pm » |
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I don't see a refutation of the rabbit pull. Can someone repeat it please? If not, then I feel better about not finding one myself and we can vote for it.
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mdk
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Arimaa player #2309
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #38 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 3:48pm » |
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on Jan 23rd, 2008, 3:30pm, RonWeasley wrote:| I don't see a refutation of the rabbit pull. Can someone repeat it please? If not, then I feel better about not finding one myself and we can vote for it. |
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I think Fritz is worried that at the very best he can find is a line where we are about equal. Which means there may be some better move that deviates from the line he provided where the best result leaves us behind. I'm not sure that he has found an outright refutation. I hope I am expressing things correctly Fritz. Please correct me if I am not.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 23rd, 2008, 3:48pm by mdk » |
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mdk
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #39 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 4:03pm » |
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Also no refutation has been offered to
21b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rh8s
22w Hg3n Hg4w Hf4n Rf1n
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #40 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 4:07pm » |
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Right, mdk. After
21b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rh8s
. 22w Me3n Me4e Mf4n Rf1n
I think we are equal, and will probably end up trading MR for MR. Maybe someone can find better for us, but I can't. Also I haven't yet looked at 22w Rf1n Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w. That latter move would probably force us to play Dc4w mc3n ha5s xxxx, which is my current favorite for this move.
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Posts: 5928
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #41 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 4:30pm » |
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on Jan 23rd, 2008, 3:10pm, The_Jeh wrote:| What would Bomb have us do? |
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depth 10: ha5n ha6e ed3n mc3e +0.27
depth 11: ha5s ha4e Dc4e hb4e +0.65
depth 12: ha5s ha4e rg7e dd7s +1.06
depth 13: ha5s ha4e ed3n ed4s +0.60
depth 14: rg7e ed3n mc3e Cc2n +0.61
depth 15: rg7e ed3n mc3e Cc2n +0.08
I'll let it run overnight and update this post with the results, but I'm not impressed so far.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 23rd, 2008, 6:24pm by Fritzlein » |
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #42 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 4:39pm » |
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on Jan 23rd, 2008, 3:30pm, RonWeasley wrote:| I don't see a refutation of the rabbit pull. |
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Hmm, my refutation was 22w Me3n Me4e Mf4n Rf1n, but now I seem to have refuted my refutation with 22b ha5s ha4e ed3n mc3e. In fact, it seems that 22b is rather difficult to meet for _any_ move that saves the rabbit.
21b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rh8s
. 22w Me3n Me4e Mf4n Rf1n
. . 22b ha5s ha4e ed3n mc3e
. . . 23w Mf5e Mg5w hg6s Rh6w
. . . . 23b rb3e hb4s ed4e ee4e
. . . . . 24w Ec5e Ed5s md3e Ed4s
. . . . . . 24b rh7s rh6s Rg6e hg5n (-+)
Somebody double-check me here, but the rabbit pull has gone way up in my estimation. I'll double-check some of mdk's other suggested moves for Gold after the rabbit pull.
[EDIT]
My idea for 22b can be avoided if gold charges a camel straight up the middle, but then Gold has other problems. I'm beginning to think that if we pull the h-rabbit, Gold can't afford to use his camel to save it, he would have to try with the horse if anything.
21b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rh8s
. 22w Rf1n Me3n Me4n Me5n
. . 22b ed3n ed4e ee4n mc3e
. . . 23w Ec5e Ed5s md3e Ed4s
. . . . 23b Me6e Mf6x ee5n ee6w ed6s
. . . . . 24w me3e mf3x Ed3e Dc4s Ee3w
. . . . . . 24b ed5s ha5s ha4e hb4e (=+)
. . . . . 24w me3e mf3x Ed3e rb3e rc3x Ha3e
. . . . . . 24b ed5s Dc4n ed4w dd7s (=+)
. . . 23w Ec5e Ed5s rb3n Ha3e
. . . . 23b Me6e Mf6x ee5n ha5e rb4w
. . . . . 24w md3w mc3x Ed4s Ed3n Dc4s
. . . . . . 24b hg6s Rh6w Rg6w Rf6x hg5n (=+)
. . 22b ed3n mc3e ha5s ha4e
. . . 23w Me6w Md6w Mc6w cc7s cc6x (+-)
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| « Last Edit: Jan 23rd, 2008, 5:21pm by Fritzlein » |
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Posts: 5928
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #43 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 5:07pm » |
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on Jan 22nd, 2008, 5:16pm, UruramTururam wrote:Second glance thoughts about swarming - I can see two possibilities:
21b: dd7s ha5s ha4e ce7w (planning to advance the dog) |
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I am afraid that if chessandgo gets his dog safely to the east, we will not be able to generate any threats while he has time to improve his position.
21b dd7s ha5s ha4e ce7w
. 22w Dc4e Ec5s Rf1n Hg3n (+=)
Quote: 21b: dd7s ha5s ha4e hg6e (planning to catch the wabbit)
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This has the same time-losing possibility as above, and additionally offers a tempting target square for his horse.
21b dd7s ha5s ha4e hg6e
. 22w Rf1n Hg3n Hg4n Hg5n
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Posts: 5928
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #44 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 6:22pm » |
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If we pull the rabbit and he defends with his horse, I get into some pretty crazy lines, but the main line remains equality after trading HR for HR. Obviously there is a ton I am not seeing, but I have to guess that it is as likely for one side as the other to have a killer move, because I kept changing my mind about who was winning.
21b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rh8s
. 22w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w Rf1n
. . 22b ed3n mc3e ha5s ha4e
. . . 23w rb3e Ha3e Me3e Mf3e
. . . . 23b md3e rc3x me3n me4e ed4n
. . . . . 24w Dc4s Dc3e Ec5s Ce2n
. . . . . . 24b Hf5n Hf6x mf4n hg6w Rh6w
. . . . . . . 25w Ec4n hb4e hc4s hc3x Ec5s
. . . . . . . . 25b hf6w Rg6w Rf6x mf5n he6w (=)
. . . . . 24w Mg3n Mg4n hg6w Mg5n
. . . . . . 24b hf6w ed5e Hf5n ee5e
. . . . . . . 25w Ec5e Ed5e he6w Ee5n
. . . . . . . . 25b mf4w me4w Dc4n md4w
. . . . . . . . . 26w Ee6s Ee5w Dc5w Hf6w
. . . . . . . . . . 26b Db5n hb4n mc4n mc5n (=+)
. . . . . . 24b ed5e Hf5e ee5e mf4e
. . . . . . . 25w Dc4s Ec5e Ed5e Ee5n
. . . . . . . . 25b mg4s mg3s Rf2n Rf3x mg2w (unclear)
. . . . 23b ed4e ee4e Hf5n Hf6x ef4n
. . . . . 24w Ec5e Ed5s md3e rc3x Ed4s
. . . . . . 24b Dc4n hb4e Dc5n Dc6x hc4n
. . . . . . . 25w Ed3w me3w Ec3n md3w mc3x (+=)
. . . 23w rb3e Ha3e Hf5w He5w
. . . . 23b rb8s rb7s dd7s ra8s (=+)
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