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   Author  Topic: Move 39  (Read 3537 times)
warren
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Re: Move 39
« Reply #15 on: Sep 7th, 2008, 11:17am »
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What about  
39b ef4e eg4n Hg3n dg2e? The idea is to put our elephant in a better position after it pulls his horse north next turn. For example:
 
39b ef4e eg4n Hg3n dg2e
40w Ec4w dc5s dc4s dc3x Eb4e
40b eg5w Hg4n rc8w cc7n
41w ?? ?? ?? ??
41b ef5n Hg5w ef6w Hf5n Hf6x
 
The above line seems to leave us up a cat, so I think he'd have to respond by doing something other than capturing our dog. Perhaps 40w Re3n Re4e Hg4s Da3n or 40w Rd4e Re4e Ec4e Ed4e?
 
Update: if he sent his elephant to d3 on 40w after killing our dog, he could then move to take our other dog hostage on 41w. I trust that an extra cat and rabbit is plenty of compensation for having a hostage dog?
« Last Edit: Sep 7th, 2008, 11:38am by warren » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 39
« Reply #16 on: Sep 7th, 2008, 1:58pm »
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on Sep 6th, 2008, 7:19am, warren wrote:
Does anyone support a move other than
39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e (mistre)
or
39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2n (F)
?

After a tiny bit more analysis, I think both of these are stronger than the other suggested moves.  For my suggestion we get a rabbit for our dog, and then chessandgo has to lose more material, although there are a few ways to lose only a rabbit, e.g.
 
39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2n
40g Ec4s dc5s Ec3e dc4s dc3x
40s ef4s ef3n Re3e Rf3x ce7s
41g Ed3e Rg1w Rf1n Da3e
41s ef4s Hg4w Hf4n ef3n
42g Rd4e Re4n Hf5e Hg5e
42s ce6w Re5n Re6e Rf6x cd6e
 
Two rabbits is plenty of material compensation for the dog, and our position is seems strong as well.  On the other hand, after mistre's move 39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e, I don't see how chessandgo can do better than lose a horse for a dog, which I think means it is objectively stronger than my suggestion.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 39
« Reply #17 on: Sep 7th, 2008, 2:04pm »
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on Sep 7th, 2008, 11:17am, warren wrote:
What about  
39b ef4e eg4n Hg3n dg2e? The idea is to put our elephant in a better position after it pulls his horse north next turn.

Doesn't that give him the option of declining the H for D trade?  For example
39s ef4e eg4n Hg3n dg2e
40g Rd4e Re4e Hg4s Da3e
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99of9
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Re: Move 39
« Reply #18 on: Sep 7th, 2008, 2:20pm »
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deeper from gnobot
 
   15    9517.1      77.3    2195  c5-c6 f4-e4 e4-f4 e3-e4 g2-f2 g3-g2 f2-e2 g2-f2 e7-e6 c6-b6 e4-e5 f4-e4 a3-b3 h3-g3 h4-h3  
 
   16   24653.9     138.4    1314  d5-e5 c5-d5 d5-d6 d4-d5 g3-f3 f3-f2 c4-c5 h1-h2 e7-e6 f4-e4 e4-f4 e3-e4 a3-b3 b1-a1 h3-g3 h4-h3  
« Last Edit: Sep 7th, 2008, 8:13pm by 99of9 » IP Logged
warren
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Re: Move 39
« Reply #19 on: Sep 7th, 2008, 5:10pm »
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on Sep 7th, 2008, 1:58pm, Fritzlein wrote:
On the other hand, after mistre's move 39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e, I don't see how chessandgo can do better than lose a horse for a dog, which I think means it is objectively stronger than my suggestion.

Doesn't Chessango get a bit more compensation for his horse than just a dog? For example he might take our south-east dog hostage, capture our c7 cat or capture one of our western rabbits. Even so, mistre's 39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e still seems like our best option.
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warren
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Re: Move 39
« Reply #20 on: Sep 7th, 2008, 5:14pm »
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on Sep 7th, 2008, 2:04pm, Fritzlein wrote:

Doesn't that give him the option of declining the H for D trade?  For example
39s ef4e eg4n Hg3n dg2e
40g Rd4e Re4e Hg4s Da3e

Yeah, I got carried away optimizing what happened after he took the dog and forgot that he might do something else. My 39b ef4e eg4n Hg3n dg2e is therefore not as good as mistre's 39b ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 39
« Reply #21 on: Sep 7th, 2008, 6:32pm »
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on Sep 7th, 2008, 5:10pm, warren wrote:

Doesn't Chessango get a bit more compensation for his horse than just a dog? For example he might take our south-east dog hostage, capture our c7 cat or capture one of our western rabbits.

Oh, good call.  I totally don't mind him taking our dog hostage with his elephant, because hostage values decline on such a depleted board, but I got caught up in the idea that his elephant had to come to the southeast.  If he flips our dog in place, and operates in the west as you suggest, then the race actually looks very dicey for us.  The advantage of dg2n instead of dg2e is that our threats in the east and center are so strong that chessandgo's elephant can't play in the west.  Therefore (although I reserve the right to flip-flop again), I am supporting 39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2n rather than 39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e at the moment.
 
This move decision turns out to be trickier than I thought, since my current favorite move involves a temporary material sacrifice.  Someone else needs to confirm that 39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2n doesn't lose us material, because if it does, we need a closer look at some other alternatives.
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 39
« Reply #22 on: Sep 7th, 2008, 7:15pm »
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Another move that should be taken seriously is ?g Da3n Da4n Da5n Da6e, although I think this is a reasonably easy threat to meet.
 
Incidentally, I can't seem to find a way for him to gain material. Perhaps 41g Ed3e Da3n Da4n Da5n is his best try?
« Last Edit: Sep 7th, 2008, 7:25pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
mistre
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Re: Move 39
« Reply #23 on: Sep 8th, 2008, 9:26am »
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It appears that we are down to two alternatives:
 
39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2n  
and
39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2e
 
I guess we are in agreement that any move to save our dog is too weak as it keeps Chessandgo with too strong of a position around c6 with his Horse keeping our Dog Hostage.
 
My biggest problem with x x x dg2n is that Chessandgo can come back with his E and take our other dog if we proceed to take his horse.  I can't find a way to save it.  If on the other hand, we only take his R in f3, we would lose D for R and have a tenuous H hostage.  Is this the intent with this move? To not take the Horse immediately?
 
For x x x dg2e, it is true that he can ignore the horse capture in the east and focus on the west.  But the best that I found for him is to get an R out of it.  So in essence we just traded D-R for H and are still up C.  However, I did not look long term on this nor did I look at any race positions - is that a threat here?
 
I would also revise my original 40s to:
 
40s Hg4n ef4e ce7s rb5w
 
the 4th step to move the rabbit is stronger and moving the cat two steps is unnecessary anyways.
 
« Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2008, 9:27am by mistre » IP Logged

Fritzlein
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Re: Move 39
« Reply #24 on: Sep 8th, 2008, 10:06am »
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on Sep 8th, 2008, 9:26am, mistre wrote:
My biggest problem with x x x dg2n is that Chessandgo can come back with his E and take our other dog if we proceed to take his horse.  I can't find a way to save it.  If on the other hand, we only take his R in f3, we would lose D for R and have a tenuous H hostage.  Is this the intent with this move? To not take the Horse immediately?

That's right, take the rabbit immediately, so we are temporarily down D for R.  Next move we fork the horse. Our threats are so strong we should gain at least R additionally while he tries to save the H, as in the line I gave above.  I think.  It needs checking.
 
If the choice comes down to
 
(A) trading D+R for H and elephants apart, or
(B) trading D for R+R and elephants together,
 
then (B) is safer for us.  Safer isn't necessarily better, I just haven't checked out that we win the race in the unsafe one.
« Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2008, 10:17am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

RonWeasley
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Re: Move 39
« Reply #25 on: Sep 8th, 2008, 11:16am »
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Please check and advise.  I think we vote for which of these two we want.  Probably begin voting Tuesday.
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mistre
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Re: Move 39
« Reply #26 on: Sep 9th, 2008, 5:28pm »
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I finally got a chance to look at Fritz's line and I think I prefer it to the more uncertain line of x x x dg2e.
 
So I will give a voice vote for:
39s ef4e eg4w Hg3n dg2n
 
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 39
« Reply #27 on: Sep 11th, 2008, 5:36pm »
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Hi, folks! I've been away for a long time... I wish I were here when that exciting camel and horse trade-off happened! Smiley
« Last Edit: Sep 11th, 2008, 8:36pm by NIC1138 » IP Logged
RonWeasley
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Re: Move 39
« Reply #28 on: Sep 12th, 2008, 3:55am »
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The dog goes north.  8-2.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 39
« Reply #29 on: Sep 12th, 2008, 5:38am »
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on Sep 11th, 2008, 5:36pm, NIC1138 wrote:
Hi, folks! I've been away for a long time... I wish I were here when that exciting camel and horse trade-off happened! Smiley

Welcome back! I think discussion has died down as people feel secure in our advantage, but there's still enough tension for things to quickly get exciting.  Somehow a solid material advantage never seems enough to ensure a boring endgame win.  Anyway, it's great to have another voice in the choir.
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