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Title: Move 6 Post by 99of9 on Jun 27th, 2007, 9:17pm Any predictions? I'm just setting up the topic so I can get notifications when someone posts Jean's move. |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by arimaa_master on Jun 28th, 2007, 2:50am on 06/27/07 at 21:17:08, 99of9 wrote:
I guess 6w Ed6s Mc5s Ed5w Mc4s would be good reply (sorry not to mention this reply in previous discussion - but I was short of time and very busy) and then I have no idea for our 6b so far. |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by RonWeasley on Jun 28th, 2007, 7:30am I like arimaa_master's move in that it blocks our e from the center. It's realistic to plan against it. However I think it represents a very even position. I don't put value on our horse hostage, so I don't want to move our e more to the side, but we might want to organize things so our camel can get to this horse eventually. Still I would avoid committing our camel to either side at this point. |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by Fritzlein on Jun 28th, 2007, 8:42am I also like arimaa_master's suggested move for chessandgo. Let me draw attention to my ongoing postal tournament game against Adanac. Our position after chessandgo plays arimaa_master's move 6w would be very like my position was after Adanac's move 4b. In my game against Adanac, I clearly lost the opening. I emerged with my camel holding a nice horse hostage, and a dog frame to boot, but lost two rabbits in the process. The two rabbits Adanac won were worth considerably more than my hostage/frame combo, and I am quite lucky that Adanac let me regroup and improve my position in the middlegame. We definitely need to handle the opening of the Mob game better than I handled it in that game. Do not think badly of our position here just because I bungled it against Adanac. If chessandgo plays arimaa_master's move (rather than some sort of swarming) it will only clarify in my mind that we are winning. For starters, chessandgo would be a couple of steps further from an effective attack on our other home trap than Adanac was. More importantly, however, since I blew it against Adanac, a better path for persecuting the horse hostage has occurred to me. Ron has mentioned part of it already: we shouldn't immediately switch sides with our camel. The fact is that, if the opposing camel goes to the other wing, we can threaten a horse frame instead of camel-holding-horse. It is a subtle point that the attacker in the situation can foil any attempts at a horse frame by keeping the camel local. When you try to We have to stay flexible enough to make this choice: if chessandgo's camel stays on the same wing where we have the horse hostage, our objective is to pass the horse hostage off to our camel. If, instead, chessandgo switches his camel to the other wing, we need to be prepared to threaten a horse frame. More details later; now I must get ready for work. |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by The_Jeh on Jun 28th, 2007, 2:43pm Chessandgo has played 6w Ed6s Mc5s Ed5w Mc4e. |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by Fritzlein on Jun 28th, 2007, 10:55pm Thanks for noticing and posting chessandgo's move, John. That maximizes our time to discuss and decide. Chessandgo's choice leaves his camel two steps closer to attacking the f6 trap than arimaa_master's move would have. We might still have time to threaten a horse frame in c6, but in the circumstance I think we have to look first at attacking the exposed camel. 6b eb5s eb4e Md4n ec4e leaves us in a terrible position after 7w Md5n Md6w hb6s Mc6w. 6b eb5s eb4e Md4e ec4e is better, but still ultimately loses us tempo after 7w Ec5e Ed5e Me4s Ha5n, when we have nothing better to do than run our elephant back to take the horse hostage again, in a worse position than we are now. 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w, on the other hand, may actually gain us time by bringing our camel to d7 on a move when it can't be flipped. Possible responses include 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w 7w Ec5e Ed5n Hb5w Ha5n 7b cc7s md7w cc6s hb6s and now his horse must run away empty handed or be caught by our camel. The are some tactical lines, but I think we have plenty of play. Alternatively 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w 7w Ec5e Md4s Ed5n Hb5w 7b ec4n ec5w eb5e Ha5e and he can't afford to flip our camel, similar to the position I voted for on move 4b. As I said then, I think his best option from this situation is to run away with his horse to fight another day, because if he lingers trying to get a rabbit pull, we'll be able to secure his horse with our camel. 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w 7w Dd2n Md4e Me4e Mf4s 7b md7s md6w xxxx xxxx again appears to force his horse to flee with nothing. Perhaps someone will come up with a better move 7w for chessandgo, but for the moment pulling his horse, freezing his camel, and sliding our camel to d7 looks quite solid to me. |
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Title: Re: Move 6a Post by arimaa_master on Jun 29th, 2007, 3:31am I took a fresh look without reading comments and it is amazing that I totally matched with moves and explanations with Fritzlein: on 06/28/07 at 22:55:02, Fritzlein wrote:
His final suggestion on 06/28/07 at 22:55:02, Fritzlein wrote:
seems to be fine: in line: 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w 7w Ec5e Ed5n Hb5w Ha5n 7b cc7s md7w cc6s hb6s I really admire this 7b - perfect I wonder if this 7b could be used in the second line too (originally: 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w 7w Ec5e Md4s Ed5n Hb5w 7b ec4n ec5w eb5e Ha5e ) Ok, and now maybe I have a slightly better move for Chessandgo: 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w 7w Ec5e Ed5n md7e Ed6n simply prevents our camel to cross to the desired side - but there are pretty wild continuations and I am not sure who will be better then - although I believe that we I add another suggestion for our 6b (my original one from the very first fresh look :)) so: !!! 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e Hb5s !!! This double horse pull leaves us with open possibilities: . we threaten to push Gold's camel to d6 . preventing the horse from immediate pull of our rabbit and I believe that our position after 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e Hb5s is already slightly better :) Now take me as I am - eat all my moves and donīt let me even think that I could be right :) I am looking forward to be smashed again :-D |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by RonWeasley on Jun 29th, 2007, 7:20am I looked at replies where C&G puts the camel on c6. Defending by moving our e to d6 looks dangerous, but defending by moving our e to b5 and m to d6 looks to give us the M hostage. So either Fritzlein's or arimaa_master's moves work out good for me. I think a single horse pull is sufficient, so I favor Fritzlein's move. After eb5s eb4e, we don't actually have to pull the horse at all because of our threat to the camel. It seems the value in pulling the horse comes from taking it out of rabbit pulling range on future moves. If we had something better to do on our other two steps, we could leave the H on a5. But I don't see anything better, so pulling the horse and developing the camel is fine with me. I don't want to use the other two steps to reposition dogs or cats because that would just make them more targetable. This may be an easy move where we can get back some reserve. I want to schedule the vote to begin Tuesday morning and end Wednesday afternoon. If the mobsters agree, I could begin the voting as early as Monday morning with a Tuesday afternoon end. |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by 99of9 on Jun 29th, 2007, 7:53am Fritz, how would you respond to: 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w 7w Ec5e Md4s Hb5w Ha5n Now, here's my first impulse: 6b cc7e cd7s me7w md7w How would you all respond to that? Obviously the intent is to forcibly get his horse in trouble. However if he counterattacks too aggressively with his camel, or tries to get our cat, our elephant could run (leaving at most a horse free to pull a rabbit), and get his camel in trouble. |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by Fritzlein on Jun 29th, 2007, 9:04am Let me throw out another possibility: 6b eb5s eb4e Db3n md7w Intuitively our threat to the dog is great than chessandgo's threat to pull our a-rabbit, i.e. we can permit him to pull our rabbit if we are getting his dog into trouble at the same time. Without looking at it carefully at all, this is my new favorite. on 06/29/07 at 07:53:38, 99of9 wrote:
My knee-jerk reaction (not analyzed) is camel to g5 for chessandgo. The threat seems too strong to ignore, but our elephant takes a long time to cross due to his elephant in the way. I have to go to work, but the weekend starts soon, and I'll get more concrete with my analysis then. |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by Fritzlein on Jun 29th, 2007, 7:14pm on 06/29/07 at 07:20:16, RonWeasley wrote:
I am not sure this is an easy move, given that I have already changed my mind once. However, I support a quick time frame, since the discussion got going quickly and will span a weekend. Then our reserve will be available for worser emergencies. |
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Title: Re: Move 6a Post by Fritzlein on Jun 29th, 2007, 7:44pm on 06/29/07 at 03:31:57, arimaa_master wrote:
I'm not sure. We aren't threatening the camel, since we don't hold it hostage in that line, so he could conceivably retreat his horse and try for a lone elephant attack, for example: 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w 7w Ec5e Md4s Ed5n Hb5w 7b cc7s md7w cc6s hb6s 8w Ha5s Ed6n mc7s Ed7w But now that I look at it, we should be all right in that position. One key is that he can't use 8w to attack our cat. I guess our "loose" defense on 7b is more useful than I thought. I will look at it in other lines, as you suggest. Quote:
I don't think he can afford to hang his camel out to to dry like that, simply to prevent our camel from crossing. After 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w 7w Ec5e Ed5n md7e Ed6n 7b Md4n ec4e Md5n ed4n suddenly Gold is in very bad shape. Material loss within a few moves is probably inevitable. So I don't count this as a refutation of my original idea for 6b. Quote:
My intuition was that stepping our camel to d7 is really essential if we want to scare away the gold horse. It seems like pulling away the horse is a less-urgent task, because getting it further away from our rabbit also gets it further away from a valuable frame or hostage situation. On the other hand, I don't see how Gold can easily take advantage. The most obvious move 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e Hb5s 7w Hb4n Hb5w Ec5e Ed5n doesn't work for Gold because it is repetition! Meanwhile we are fine after something less aggressive like 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e Hb5s 7w Hb4w Ec5e Md4s Ed5n that doesn't threaten an immediate rabbit pull. So I guess I rate this 6b as leading to an equal position for us. |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by Fritzlein on Jun 29th, 2007, 8:07pm on 06/29/07 at 07:20:16, RonWeasley wrote:
Ah, thanks for considering a camel rush to c6. I totally overlooked that possibility. I think you found our best defense on 7b, but actually getting that camel as a hostage could be tricky. What line of play were you foreseeing? After 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w 7w Dd2n Md4n Md5n Md6w 7b md7s ec4w Hb5w eb4n 8w Db3w Da3n Ha5n Da4n I don't see how we make progress. We aren't in any danger at the moment, but I don't see a good path to rearranging our pieces. What do folks suggest? It may be that the camel advance on 7w is actually strong! |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by Fritzlein on Jun 29th, 2007, 11:10pm on 06/29/07 at 07:53:38, 99of9 wrote:
I think we can easily forestall the rabbit pull if he doesn't try to prevent our camel from crossing. 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w 7w Ec5e Md4s Hb5w Ha5n 7b md7s dd8s md6w 8w Ha6n Ha7s ra8s Ha6s 8b ec4n hb6s mc6w cb6w and I think we are winning. Of course, he could instead run away with his horse on 8w, which brings it more or less back to even. Quote:
Hehe, that looks suspiciously like the move I played against Adanac. Clearly it was my first impulse as well, but now I shy away given the way he schooled me. 6b cc7e cd7s me7w md7w 7w Md4w Me4w Mf4w Mg4n 7b eb5s eb4e ec4w ed4e 8w Hg3e Mg5s Mg4s Ec5e His 7w isn't his only option, but if he plays it we are definitely forced to cross with our elephant immediately. Where do we stand after 8w? I guess there is no impending catastrophe, but Gold is still threatening to pull our a8-rabbit as well as threatening our exposed cat. I think I'd prefer to be playing Gold there. Yet even if this line works out OK for us, I'm suspicious the chessandgo has plenty of time to start a safer attack against us, with his horse leading the camel. After our 6b, I count that we need ten steps to get the hostage horse passed to our camel, plus five or six to get our elephant across to gain control on the other side. Chessandgo would be able to attack very deliberately, and if his horse was out in front, his camel wouldn't have to run away when our elephant switched sides. He could instead move his elephant to d6, retreat his a-file horse, and have the mirror image in the east of the attack he just gave up in the west, except probably with a time gain. That's just my strategic guess; my one line certainly doesn't justify it. |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by Fritzlein on Jun 30th, 2007, 11:18am On a second look, I still like 6b eb5s eb4e Db3n me7w It seems to give us a secondary threat in some lines, a threat greater than chessandgo's threat to pull our a-rabbit. A dog hostage is much nicer than a horse hostage, because ultimately it can be passed off to either of our horses to hold. It doesn't require our camel to be on a certain wing. Also a dog is bigger than a cat or a rabbit, so we don't have to shut down his minor threats to come out ahead. For example 6b eb5s eb4e Db3n me7w 7w Ec5e Md4s Ed5n Ha5n 7b cc7s md7w cc6s hb6s Leaves us in much better shape than previous similar lines. Indeed, my biggest worry about this line is Ron's idea of the camel charge, transposing after 6b eb5s eb4e Db3n me7w 7w Dd2n Md4n Md5n Md6w 7b Db4s ec4w eb4n md7s 8w Db3w Da3n Ha5n Da4n |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by The_Jeh on Jun 30th, 2007, 2:22pm on 06/30/07 at 11:18:41, Fritzlein wrote:
A possible response is 8w Ha6e Ed6w cc5e Ec6s. Is this readily defendable? on 06/30/07 at 11:18:41, Fritzlein wrote:
Well, if we advance the g6 horse, what piece besides his elephant can go to arrest it? His camel cannot head in a southerly or easterly direction. And if he moves the elephant, his camel can say good-bye. This line might be a tempo gain for us (maybe... perhaps). |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by Fritzlein on Jul 1st, 2007, 10:36am on 06/30/07 at 14:22:47, The_Jeh wrote:
6b eb5s eb4e Db3n me7w 7w Ec5e Md4s Ed5n Ha5n 7b cc7s md7w cc6s hb6s 8w Ha6e Ed6w cc5e Ec6s 8b rb7w mc7w mc7e Hb6n appears favorable to us. Quote:
After 6b eb5s eb4e Db3n me7w 7w Dd2n Md4n Md5n Md6w 7b Db4s ec4w eb4n md7s 8w Db3w Da3n Ha5n Da4n it's true that our horse in the east would have a good deal of freedom, but it seems his horse in the east would be equally powerful. Our camel would be more mobile than his camel, but our elephant is further from the center, and therefore every bit as immobile as his elephant. Maybe 6b eb5s eb4e Db3n me7w 7w Dd2n Md4n Md5n Md6w 7b Db4s ec4w md7s dd8s is better, with the idea of putting our elephant on b6, and eventually pushing the camel to d6. Pushing the camel into the middle could also be our plan after 6b eb5s eb4e Db3n me7w 7w Dd2n Md4n Md5n Md6w 7b Db4s ec4w eb4n md7s 8w Db3w Da3n Ha5n Da4n 8b rb7w hb6n eb5n xxxx although I would certainly worry about being swarmed in this line. |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by RonWeasley on Jul 2nd, 2007, 8:33am Quote:
8b cc7e rb7e hb6n eb5n frames the camel. We can get ours free. C&G may try to blockade our e, but he'll have to give up the camel to free his own E. Looks OK to me. |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by RonWeasley on Jul 3rd, 2007, 8:01am When I started the election, I didn't receive an e-mail notice. So I resent the notices. This time I got mine. If you got two notices, sorry for the flame and you can still only vote once. |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by Fritzlein on Jul 3rd, 2007, 12:03pm I only got one notice, and Yahoo! put it in my spam folder. |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by NIC1138 on Jul 3rd, 2007, 2:26pm on 07/03/07 at 12:03:23, Fritzlein wrote:
I got two, and gmail put neither in my spam box... Somebody working for Yahoo must be responsible! ::) ;D |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by RonWeasley on Jul 4th, 2007, 7:57am With 10 votes cast, I stopped the election. Winner by a landslide is eb5s eb4e Db3n md7w. I'd show the preference matrix, but I don't know the spell that does the formatting. Tabium Fritzlein? |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by Fritzlein on Jul 4th, 2007, 10:04am Excellent, it is good to get back 28 hours of reserve, especially on a move when there was broad agreement. Our final choice wasn't immediately obvious, but there may be trickier and more critical moves yet to come. on 07/04/07 at 07:57:44, RonWeasley wrote:
The tags I use are "font=courier" and "/font". I haven't figured out how to make tabs work for me, so I just use spaces. However, more than five spaces together will get collapsed, so I put a period for every fifth character. . . . . . . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 1. eb5s eb4e Db3n me7w (freeze M, drag D) . - 7 8 10 2. eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w (freeze M, drag H once) 2 - 8 10 3. eb5s Ha5e eb4e Hb5s (freeze M, drag H twice) 2 1 - 7 4. cc7e cd7s me7m md7w (m to c7) . . . 0 0 3 - |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by The_Jeh on Jul 4th, 2007, 4:42pm I am glad we gained reserve time back. I hope, though, that you will in future again set a definite end time for your elections, after which you have complete authority to move. If you move as soon as you get ten votes, it becomes a race to vote before the quota is filled, and a few people are unfairly disenfranchised. It doesn't matter if one move has a landslide advantage - it's the principle of the thing. A legal and specific end time to the election eliminates any controversy. I'm sure you already have this covered. |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by Janzert on Jul 4th, 2007, 8:09pm As long as there is a minimum length set to vote (probably 24-48 hours at least) I think it should be fine. Just think of that as the definite end then a time extension if a certain minimum of players haven't voted in that period. Janzert |
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Title: Re: Move 6 Post by RonWeasley on Jul 5th, 2007, 8:01am Yes, I like that better. On the next vote, I will set two time limits. The earlier one if we already have 10 votes and the later one otherwise. This one would have been: voting ends Wednesday morning if there are 10 or more votes, Wednesday afternoon otherwise. |
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