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        Team Games >> 2007 One vs TheMob >> Move 11
        
(Message started by: NIC1138 on Aug 15th, 2007, 9:35pm)
Title: Move 11
Post by NIC1138 on Aug 15th, 2007, 9:35pm
Chessnadgo played 11w Eb5e Hc4s Md3s Ec5w. Retreated horse and camel.
Title: Re: Move 11
Post by NIC1138 on Aug 15th, 2007, 9:42pm
Here is one move suggestion... 11b ed4w ec4w Hc3n md6e. The idea is to threaten the horse. I like moving the camel to threaten the other horse, but other idea would be to set up a horse frame, with 11b ed4w ec4w Hc3n dd8s perhaps.
Title: Re: Move 11
Post by Janzert on Aug 15th, 2007, 9:43pm

11b ed4w ec4w Hc3n xxxx ?

Or does that leave the e to decentralized?

Janzert
Title: Re: Move 11
Post by mdk on Aug 15th, 2007, 10:27pm
How about 11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n?
Title: Re: Move 11
Post by UruramTururam on Aug 16th, 2007, 2:05am
I am afraid that moving the elephant two steps right makes it less mobile than it should be.

I'd suggest: 11b ed4w ec4n Hc3n md6e
  • Still threatening the horse
  • Limiting movement possibilities of the golden elephant
  • Switching our camel to the left wing
    		•
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by arimaa_master on Aug 16th, 2007, 4:33am

    on 08/16/07 at 02:05:36, UruramTururam wrote:
    I am afraid that moving the elephant two steps right makes it less mobile than it should be.

    I'd suggest: 11b ed4w ec4n Hc3n md6e
  • Still threatening the horse
  • Limiting movement possibilities of the golden elephant
  • Switching our camel to the left wing



    • Very good suggestion - I didn´t even consider this move after looking about two minutes at the position, now is clearly my number 1.


    Now my preferences are:


    I)   11b ed4w ec4n Hc3n md6e

    II)  11b ed4w ec4w Hc3n md6e

    III) 11b ed4w ec4w Hc3n dd8s (new last step)

    IV)  11b hb6w rb7w cc7w md6n (completely new)
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by Fritzlein on Aug 16th, 2007, 8:48am
    Wow, it's great to see the suggestions and discussion get started so quickly.  It fits my schedule to begin the voting at GMT 01:00 Tuesday, August 21 and end voting at GMT 11:00 Wednesday, August 22.  That will gain back 12 hours of reserve for the Mob.

    General thoughts about the position: by retreating on his last couple of moves, chessandgo has given up any credible EMH or EH attack, so the game has reverted to a dual-lone-elephant opening.  His advantage in a DLE is being closer to rabbit pull.  Our advantage is that his dog on b3 and horse on c3 are misplaced.

    I like the idea behind 11b ed4w ec4w Hc3n dd8s, because I want to threaten his horse, but 11w Eb5e Ec5e Ed5w md6s seems to leave us in trouble.

    The idea from 11b ed4w ec4n Hc3n xxxx of leaving our elephant more centralized is strategically sound, but I'm tactically afraid of 11w Eb5w hb6s hb5s Ea5e.  Trading our well-placed horse for chessandgo's misplaced horse seems to convert our small advantage into a small disadvantage, because after a horse trade his currently misplaced dog would suddenly be in perfect position.  Alternatively 11w hb6e Eb5n Eb6s rb7s seems to leave us no way to exploit the horse we pulled.  

    My suggestion along the lines NIC and Janzert were thinking, but with a different 4th step:

    11b ed4w ec4w Hc3n md6n

    When we were trying to stop the EH attack it made sense to activate our camel.  Now that there is no EH attack, our advanced camel is mostly a target for his lone elephant, so we retreat it.  Meanwhile our other three steps threaten to exploit his poorly placed dog and horse.

    I haven't worked out a lot of lines, but intuitively we are winning.  Our patience seems to be paying off.

    Summarizing the game so far from my perspective:
    1) We threatened to take a small lead in the DLE race, thus provoking chessandgo into a premature EH attack
    2) Our threats to chessandgo's exposed pieces forced his elephant out of its preferred spot between our traps.
    3) Chessandgo tried to retain H & M activity without conceding any disadvantage, but with his elephant decentralized and camel exposed, he couldn't find a good attacking continuation.  Our well-placed defensive camel subtly repelled his advances.
    4) After chessandgo's retreat the DLE race has been restored, but with chessandgo's horse and dog catywumpus, giving us a small but clear advantage.

    I expect the blood-and-guts style players are disappointed with the "boring" play so far, but it tickles me pink to accumulate advantages so small that, when the other player finally realizes he's at a disadvantage, he can't think of any mistake he made or any move on which he went wrong.  That's when you know you didn't out-calculate your opponent, you just made better choices positionally.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by The_Jeh on Aug 16th, 2007, 2:18pm

    on 08/16/07 at 08:48:36, Fritzlein wrote:
    My suggestion along the lines NIC and Janzert were thinking, but with a different 4th step:
    11b ed4w ec4w Hc3n md6n


    Possible responses:
    12w Eb5e hb6s Hc4s xxxx (Db3s?)

    12w Eb5w hb6s hb5e Ea5e [Chessandgo's horse is moved to the east side on the following move, and it's generally not strong to have both horses on the same side.]

    12w Eb5e Hc4s Ec5s Db3s [Leads to a rabbit pull for us at cost of a decentralized elephant.]

    And after these moves there are more lines to examine. I think this move keeps an advantage for us, but we must be careful so that the game doesn't equalize.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by Fritzlein on Aug 16th, 2007, 4:29pm

    on 08/15/07 at 22:27:00, mdk wrote:
    How about 11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n?

    This is a somewhat sharp suggestion; compared to other lines it needs more calculation and less strategic judgment.  Can chessandgo afford to ignore the threat and pull a rabbit?  What if he flips our horse? What if he pulls our horse with two steps and retreats his dog with the other two?  I'd like to see you lobby for this move by giving some variations.  If you can refute chessandgo's racing responses, then this move could gain tempo by forcing him to defend.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by 99of9 on Aug 16th, 2007, 4:54pm
    ed4w ec4w hb6w rb7w

    Once again I want to get a rabbit pull happening and prevent him from doing the same.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by mdk on Aug 16th, 2007, 6:13pm

    on 08/16/07 at 16:29:31, Fritzlein wrote:
    This is a somewhat sharp suggestion; compared to other lines it needs more calculation and less strategic judgment.  Can chessandgo afford to ignore the threat and pull a rabbit?  What if he flips our horse? What if he pulls our horse with two steps and retreats his dog with the other two?  I'd like to see you lobby for this move by giving some variations.  If you can refute chessandgo's racing responses, then this move could gain tempo by forcing him to defend.


    If I properly remember the analysis i did prior to suggesting this move chessandgo cannot pull the rabbit although i would have to spend some time in order to go through the possible lines of play. I'll try and work on this when I get back from visiting Princeton late Friday evening as I probably won't have a chance before then.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by jdb on Aug 16th, 2007, 7:41pm

    on 08/15/07 at 22:27:00, mdk wrote:
    How about 11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n?


    A) Pull the rabbit
    12w hb6e Eb5n Eb6s rb7s
    13b De3n ed3e De4n ee3n

    I dont think gold can safely pull the rabbit.

    B) Flip the dog
    12w Eb5e hb6s hb5s Ec5w
    13b De3n ed3e De4n ee3n

    This looks good for silver too.

    C) Retreat the dog and also do something else
    12w Md2e De3e Db3s Hc3w

    To me this looks OK for gold, but maybe there is still some possibilty for silver?
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by Fritzlein on Aug 16th, 2007, 10:15pm
    JDB mentioned to me in chat that he was looking at 11b hg6e hh6s hh5s hh4s, so I thought I would throw it into the mix for discussion here.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by Fritzlein on Aug 17th, 2007, 8:19am

    on 08/16/07 at 16:54:28, 99of9 wrote:
    ed4w ec4w hb6w rb7w

    Once again I want to get a rabbit pull happening and prevent him from doing the same.

    Are you worried that he might pull our camel instead of engaging the race to pull a rabbit first?  My instinct is that if he goes after a piece rather than a rabbit, ultimately our elephant will be forced to defend that rather than pulling something of its own, but maybe it works out tactically in our favor in this case.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by 99of9 on Aug 17th, 2007, 8:47am
    No, I'm not really worried.  In the worst case we have to use our elephant, in the best case we don't.  It's not a major problem if we do, but I don't see it coming soon:

    11b ed4w ec4w hb6w rb7w
    12w Eb5e Ec5e Ed5w md6s
    12b dd8s dd7s md5e me5n
    13w Ec5e Ed5e Ee5w me6s
    13b ce7s me5e mf5n dd6n
    14w Ed5e Ee5e Ef5w mf6s
    14b hg6s mf5n mf6e hg5e

    One thing we have up our sleeve is that we are threatening the dog, so he can't settle for attacking our cat at any stage, because he doesn't want a cD trade.

    I'm happy to try to answer variations if you are worried about this.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by Fritzlein on Aug 17th, 2007, 11:25am

    on 08/17/07 at 08:47:48, 99of9 wrote:
    I'm happy to try to answer variations if you are worried about this.

    Yeah, let's play variations. Sometimes looking too far ahead is futile, since surely one player or the other will deviate before then, but in a tactical line like this it is nice to get a flavor for the possibilities.


    Quote:
    One thing we have up our sleeve is that we are threatening the dog, so he can't settle for attacking our cat at any stage, because he doesn't want a cD trade.

    But he will likely get a chance to attack some piece (perhaps the cat) in three steps while retreating his dog with one step.  In your line


    Quote:
    11b ed4w ec4w hb6w rb7w
    12w Eb5e Ec5e Ed5w md6s
    12b dd8s dd7s md5e me5n
    13w Ec5e Ed5e Ee5w me6s
    13b ce7s me5e mf5n dd6n

    14w Ed5n ce6s Ed6e Db3s

    Now his cat push should be worth more than our rabbit pull.  All we can do to retain the initiative is pull the gold horse, getting us back to the class of position we had before chessandgo retreated, except now our camel is cut off from the action and our cat is exposed.  I'm guessing that with our elephant forced to abandon the rabbit pull to take a not-very-threatening horse hostage, it will ultimately be chessandgo who gets the first rabbit pull in the ensuing wrestling.

    If we agree Gold is better in the final position, we need to find a way for Silver to deviate earlier.  If you think Silver is ahead at the end, some powerful continuation for Silver might convince me, but also it could simply be a strategic judgment that more lines won't easily clarify, and we'll all just have to vote our instincts.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by mdk on Aug 17th, 2007, 11:57pm
    regarding 11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n


    on 08/16/07 at 19:41:06, jdb wrote:
    A) Pull the rabbit
    12w hb6e Eb5n Eb6s rb7s
    13b De3n ed3e De4n ee3n

    I dont think gold can safely pull the rabbit.

    B) Flip the dog
    12w Eb5e hb6s hb5s Ec5w
    13b De3n ed3e De4n ee3n

    This looks good for silver too.

    C) Retreat the dog and also do something else
    12w Md2e De3e Db3s Hc3w

    To me this looks OK for gold, but maybe there is still some possibilty for silver?


    I had the same analysis for parts A and B. As for part C I was thinking of something along the lines of 12b ed3e hg6s hg5s hg4w
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by Fritzlein on Aug 18th, 2007, 12:20pm

    on 08/17/07 at 23:57:42, mdk wrote:
    [edited...]
    11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n
    12w Md2e De3e Db3s Hc3w
    12b ed3e hg6s hg5s hg4w

    If he flips our horse on 13w, we have to abandon the EH attack, right?  Although our position may still be OK.


    on 08/16/07 at 19:41:06, jdb wrote:
    C) Retreat the dog and also do something else
    12w Md2e De3e Db3s Hc3w

    To me this looks OK for gold, but maybe there is still some possibilty for silver?

    Alternatively the "something else" could be pulling our horse two squares with 12w Md2e De3e Ec5e hc6s.  Is mdk's EH attack also OK after that?
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by Fritzlein on Aug 18th, 2007, 12:35pm
    The ballot so far:

    11b hg6e hh6s hh5s hh4s (eastern horse charge)
    11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n (pull central dog)
    11b ed4w ec4w hb6w rb7w (shift EHR west)
    11b hb6w rb7w cc7w md6n (shift HRC west, retreat M)
    11b ed4w ec4w Hc3n md6n (pull horse, retreat camel)
    11b ed4w ec4w Hc3n dd8s (pull horse, advance dog)
    11b ed4w ec4w Hc3n md6e (pull horse, camel east)
    11b ed4w ec4n Hc3n md6e (pull horse, E north, M east)

    Reactions, rankings, responses, variations, analysis, comments, corrections, and additions welcome.  This may be a more divided vote than some recent ones, so extra discussion is all the more important.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by mdk on Aug 18th, 2007, 12:58pm

    on 08/18/07 at 12:20:14, Fritzlein wrote:
    .
    [edited...]
    11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n
    12w Md2e De3e Db3s Hc3w
    12b ed3e hg6s hg5s hg4w  

    If he flips our horse on 13w, we have to abandon the EH attack, right?  Although our position may still be OK.


    I was thinking for 13b hf4e Df3n ee3w xxxx. Perhaps either 13b hf4e Df3n ee3w md6e  or 13b hf4e Df3n ee3w rb7w


    on 08/18/07 at 12:20:14, Fritzlein wrote:
    .

    Alternatively the "something else" could be pulling our horse two squares with 12w Md2e De3e Ec5e hc6s.  Is mdk's EH attack also OK after that?


    Well in this case one possibility is 12b rb7s hb5s Db3w hb4s. Or maybe 12b rb7s hb5s Db3s hb4s.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by UruramTururam on Aug 18th, 2007, 4:00pm
    After reading all the analyzes here I really think we should get some benefits from golden E positioned quite far from the center. Positioning our own e on c5 forces gold to go around it.

    And any move that includes ed4w ec3w Hc3n can be countered with a move containing Eb5e Hc4s Ec5s leaving our elephant decentralized.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by mdk on Aug 18th, 2007, 5:53pm

    on 08/18/07 at 12:35:29, Fritzlein wrote:
    The ballot so far:
    ...
    11b hb6w rb7w cc7w md6n (shift HRC west, retreat M)
    ...

    Reactions, rankings, responses, variations, analysis, comments, corrections, and additions welcome.  This may be a more divided vote than some recent ones, so extra discussion is all the more important.


    This move worries me. How do we respond to 12w Eb5n cb7e Eb6n Rh2w? Also I can't find an adequate response to 12w Eb5n Db3n Hc3n  Hc4n.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by Fritzlein on Aug 18th, 2007, 9:35pm

    on 08/18/07 at 16:00:16, UruramTururam wrote:
    And any move that includes ed4w ec3w Hc3n can be countered with a move containing Eb5e Hc4s Ec5s leaving our elephant decentralized.

    After these two moves, I'd like to flip his dog from b3 to b5.  Of course it depends on the fourth step of each of us on the move before, but in some cases threatening the dog could compensate for the decentralized position of our elephant, especially if chessandgo himself has no immediate threats on the part of the board our elephant can't reach.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by Fritzlein on Aug 19th, 2007, 9:38am

    on 08/18/07 at 12:58:30, mdk wrote:
    [edit...]
    11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n  
    12w Md2e De3e Eb5e hb6s

    Well in this case one possibility is 12b rb7s hb5s Db3w hb4s. Or maybe 12b rb7s hb5s Db3s hb4s.

    Hmmm... that line is quite committal, voluntarily advancing a rabbit as well as the horse.  My general experience is that when an EH attack is defended, the most it produces is a rabbit pull, so advancing a rabbit in order to get EH rolling is investing a lot of your future gains.  Unless you are angling for a swarming attack?  After

    11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n  
    12w Md2e De3e Eb5e hb6s
    12b rb7s hb5s Db3s hb4s
    13w Ec5w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e

    How do you feel about our prospects?  Are you thinking maybe EHMR swarm?
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by mdk on Aug 19th, 2007, 4:40pm

    on 08/19/07 at 09:38:10, Fritzlein wrote:
    Hmmm... that line is quite committal, voluntarily advancing a rabbit as well as the horse.  My general experience is that when an EH attack is defended, the most it produces is a rabbit pull, so advancing a rabbit in order to get EH rolling is investing a lot of your future gains.  Unless you are angling for a swarming attack?  After

    11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n  
    12w Md2e De3e Eb5e hb6s
    12b rb7s hb5s Db3s hb4s
    13w Ec5w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e

    How do you feel about our prospects?  Are you thinking maybe EHMR swarm?


    Well this was basically along the lines of what I was thinking although I  realize that such a continuation is unlikely to be popular among the mob.

    However, after looking at the position again I think I have found a continuation which is less committal and improves our position. Consider the position after

    11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n  
    12w Md2e De3e Eb5e hb6s
    12b hg6e hh6s hh5s hh4s

    This is similar to the position after simply playing 11b hg6e hh6s hh5s hh4s  as we are guaranteed a rabbit pull but chessandgo's phant is no longer in a position where it can respond on the next turn by pulling a rabbit.

    further analysis, comments, and continued concerns about my 11b are all appreciated and i will do my best to respond.  
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by 99of9 on Aug 19th, 2007, 5:18pm
    Sorry I haven't had time to reply.  I hadn't thought of Fritz's suggested reply to my line, and haven't had a chance to look for counters.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by Fritzlein on Aug 21st, 2007, 8:25am
    Uh oh.  We're twelve hours into the voting, and only three Mob members have voted.  One of them is me.  Let's not follow up an active discussion with low turnout at the polls.  You have 24 hours left (until 8/22 13:00 GMT) to do your civic duty.  (Or should I say rather, your disorderly, riotous duty?)
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by RonWeasley on Aug 21st, 2007, 11:15am
    Votes came in slowly for the last few moves too.  This vote looks harder than the others, so it may be even slower.

    I ended up wanting to get our m out of range from the E if we pulled the horse.  Otherwise I kind of liked jdb's eastern camel charge.  I think it could pull a rabbit before it has to come back.  Gold's exposed D makes defending against our h just a bit harder.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by Fritzlein on Aug 21st, 2007, 12:55pm

    on 08/21/07 at 11:15:27, RonWeasley wrote:
    Votes came in slowly for the last few moves too.  This vote looks harder than the others, so it may be even slower.

    Up to seven votes now.  I hadn't considered that in the first 12 hours of voting most folks in this hemisphere were asleep.

    I agree with you that the horse charge, albeit counter-intuitive, actually seems to work pretty well in this circumstance.  If that more had gotten more analysis, I might even have promoted it to first, but I chickened out under time pressure.  The power of this weird-looking move is a reminder to me not to play by my gut, but rather keep an open mind, since each position is a unique confluence of factors.

    I'm glad you're back in town, Ron, so you can resume coordination of this unruly bunch.  Then I'll have more time to try to survive chessandgo's crushing swarm in my postal tournament game.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by Fritzlein on Aug 21st, 2007, 8:43pm
    Oh, fiddlesticks.  I just closed the voting and moved on behalf of the Mob, and then realized that it had only been 24 hours, not 36 hours as promised.  :-[

    If I had merely closed the voting and not actually made the move, it would seem reasonable to delay and re-vote.  Unfortunately, now that I have actually played the move it would seem outlandish to ask chessandgo for a takeback.  I fear the Mob will just have to abide by my mistake.  :-[ :-[

    On the brighter side, Ron is back now, so the Mob will henceforth again have a coordinator who is not a doofus.

    Also on the bright side, eleven Mobsters voted on this move, up from nine last move.  Hopefully few or none of the remaining eligible six were actually going to vote in the next twelve hours.

    For better or for worse, this raucous crowd decided on the wildest-looking of the eight choices, by a slim margin over my favored play-it-safe approach.  We haven't published any analysis for the horse charge, so it is totally a shot in the dark, but the Mob wanted it that way, so all I can say is

    BANZAI!!!
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by Fritzlein on Aug 21st, 2007, 8:57pm
    For the record:

       .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    1.  2.  3.  4.  5.  6.  7.  8.
    1. hg6e hh6s hh5s hh4s (eastern horse charge)   .     -   7   6   9   7   8  10  10
    2. ed4w ec4w Hc3n md6n (pull horse, retreat camel)    3   -   6   7   7   6   9   9
    3. ed4w ec4n Hc3n md6e (pull horse, E north, M east)  5   5   -   6   7   5  10  11
    4. ed4w ec4w Hc3n md6e (pull horse, camel east) .     1   3   5   -   5   6   9   8
    5. ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n (pull central dog)  .    .     3   3   4   4   -   6   8   9
    6. ed4w ec4w Hc3n dd8s (pull horse, advance dog).     1   4   5   3   4   -   9   8
    7. ed4w ec4w hb6w rb7w (shift EHR west)    .    .     0   1   1   1   2   1   -   5
    8. hb6w rb7w cc7w md6n (shift HRC west, retreat M)    0   1   0   1   1   1   4   -
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by 99of9 on Aug 21st, 2007, 9:07pm

    on 08/21/07 at 20:43:16, Fritzlein wrote:
    Hopefully few or none of the remaining eligible six were actually going to vote in the next twelve hours.

    There's about a 70% chance I would have voted in 8 hours time (I've voted every previous time), but I still haven't done any proper analysis, so the group decision may be better without me!
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by 99of9 on Aug 21st, 2007, 9:12pm

    on 08/21/07 at 20:43:16, Fritzlein wrote:
    For better or for worse, this raucous crowd decided on the wildest-looking of the eight choices, by a slim margin over my favored play-it-safe approach.

    7-3 isn't that slim?  I guess it's unlikely we would have had 4 more voters all coming in on the other side.
    Title: Re: Move 11
    Post by Fritzlein on Aug 21st, 2007, 9:30pm
    Sorry I cut you off 99of9.  :-[ :-[ :-[

    7-3 isn't that slim, but if two more folks had voted for option #3 ahead of the actual top two, then it could have won outright (unless it was passed by #4 in the mean time).  What's more, if two more ballots had come in with relative preferences

    #3, #2, #1

    and

    #2, #3, #1

    it would have created a circular preference, which could have come out any which way among the top three.  (I don't fully grasp the tiebreak method.)  If you thought the horse charge was terrible, and you were going to put it at the bottom of your ballot, then only one voter in addition to you could have altered the outcome.  Only if you tell me that you would have put #3 somewhere below #1 on your ballot will I be able to sleep at night.


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