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        Team Games >> 2007 One vs TheMob >> Move 23
        
(Message started by: Soter on Feb 5th, 2008, 2:17pm)
Title: Move 23
Post by Soter on Feb 5th, 2008, 2:17pm
Ok, here is Fritzlein's tree:



22b hg6w Rh6w hf6w Rg6w Rf6x
.    23w Mg5w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5n
.    .    23b ha5s ha4e df7s rf8s
.    .    .    24w Mf5w df6s df5s Me5e
.    .    .    .    24b ed3e mc3e rb3e hb4s
.    .    .    24w Mf5e df6s Dc4e Ec5s
.    .    .    .    24b ra8s ra7s ra6s ra5s
.    .    .    .    .    25w df5s Mg5w df4s df3x Mf5s
.    .    .    .    .    .    25b ed3e ee3n Mf4s Mf3x ee4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    26w hb4n Ec4w Eb4e rb3n mc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4n ef5e Hg6w Hf6x eg5n
.    .    .    .    .    25w df5s Mg5w Rf1n Ce2n
.    .    .    .    .    .    25b Ce3s ed3e mc3e Cc2n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    26w Cc3s rb3e Ha3e Rf2e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    26b ee3n he6w hd6s df4e
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by The_Jeh on Feb 5th, 2008, 2:49pm
Chessandgo's move is exactly predicted. He has chosen 23w Mg5w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5n.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by UruramTururam on Feb 5th, 2008, 3:27pm
Yes, he had that answer prepared...

Now what?

Perhaps:
23b: ed3e ec3w Ce2n dd7s
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by RonWeasley on Feb 5th, 2008, 7:24pm
Fritzlein's continuation 23b ha5s ha4e df7s rf8s looks very playable.  Notice the false protection threat against the C on c2.  This will probably force play along the lines in Fritzlein's tree.  I would expect the bottom branches to be played.  It gets very sharp, so look closely.  I still haven't decided if it's good, but I don't think it's bad.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by 99of9 on Feb 7th, 2008, 3:40am

on 02/05/08 at 15:27:19, UruramTururam wrote:
Perhaps:
23b: ed3e ec3w Ce2n dd7s


I don't think this sets up enough of a threat (he has a 1 step defence of the cat).

At the same time, it doesn't prepare us to escape being tied down defending the c3 trap.

If we aren't active enough, he will soon take over our f6 trap.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by arimaa_master on Feb 7th, 2008, 3:57am
I fully support Fritzlein´s move 23b ha5s ha4e df7s rf8s.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by 99of9 on Feb 7th, 2008, 4:00am
I quite like

23b  ha5s ha4e Dc4e hb4e

Anyone got a good refutation?
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by jdb on Feb 7th, 2008, 5:52am

on 02/07/08 at 04:00:59, 99of9 wrote:
I quite like

23b  ha5s ha4e Dc4e hb4e

Anyone got a good refutation?


How about:
24w Mf5n he6s Mf6w Rf1n

There are alot of tactics, but I think gold at least gets his rabbit back.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by 99of9 on Feb 7th, 2008, 6:41am
23b  ha5s ha4e Dc4e hb4e
. . . . 24w Mf5n he6s Mf6w Rf1n
. . . . . . . . 24b ed3e ee3n he5e mc3e

Now we have a threat on the cat, we are using his dog to protect our camel against his elephant, and we have are almost in position to pounce on his MH attack with our elephant.  Getting a rabbit from us will be the least of his concerns!
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by RonWeasley on Feb 7th, 2008, 7:36am

on 02/07/08 at 06:41:27, 99of9 wrote:
23b  ha5s ha4e Dc4e hb4e
. . . . 24w Mf5n he6s Mf6w Rf1n
. . . . . . . . 24b ed3e ee3n he5e mc3e


. . . . 25w hc4s Ec5s rb3n Ha3e framing our horse to our camel with the E nearby.  This appears to lead to a MH for mhr exchange that I don't like.

Or else gold takes our cat in a sharp continuation that looks only even at best.

Instead, how about 24b De4e ee3n mc3e Cc2n Cc3x?  This sets up a very sharp exchange race on c3 and f6 where we may be able to maintain our advantage.  Not sure.
[Edit] Looking more at this 24b, gold can just take the dog on f7, put a rabbit on c2, and remain up by a dog.  So I can't find a good 24b for us.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by jdb on Feb 7th, 2008, 8:53am

on 02/07/08 at 07:36:52, RonWeasley wrote:
. . . . 25w hc4s Ec5s rb3n Ha3e framing our horse to our camel with the E nearby.  This appears to lead to a MH for mhr exchange that I don't like.

Or else gold takes our cat in a sharp continuation that looks only even at best.

Instead, how about 24b De4e ee3n mc3e Cc2n Cc3x?  This sets up a very sharp exchange race on c3 and f6 where we may be able to maintain our advantage.  Not sure.
[Edit] Looking more at this 24b, gold can just take the dog on f7, put a rabbit on c2, and remain up by a dog.  So I can't find a good 24b for us.


24b ed3e Dd2n Cc2e mc3s

The horse frame is not so deadly now, but alot of pieces could leave the board quickly. With the camel behind the trap, a capturing race should (?) favour us due to the advanced rabbit.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Soter on Feb 7th, 2008, 9:44am
Some rather raw ideas:


1.Hypothetical sharp line ( assuming that Gold goes with 24w Mf5n he6s Mf6w Rf1n after 23b ha5s ha4e Dc4e hb4e ):

24b ed3e ee3n mc3e he5e
25w Me6w Ec5n Ec6s cc7s cc6x
25b md3w hc4w mc3e Cc2n Cc3x
26w dd7w Md6n dc7s dc6x Md7w
26b md3e Dd2n Dd3w Dc3x me3w

Now C&G must switch to goal defense ( though the whole thing is rather complicated, with dozens dangerous deviations).

2. What if:

23b ha5s ha4e Dc4e hb4e
24w Mf5n he6w Mf6w Rf1n

In this case our horse cannot reach f5 - only our elephant can do it. he6w (instead of he6s) will hurt Silver much more imho :-/.

3. Now a different kettle of fish: 24w Rh1 Rh2n Rh3n Rh4n ( or some similar move involning flank rabbit offensive ) - do you consider this answer viable for Gold and worth preparing for?

4. My proposals ( not examined very deeply yet, but maybe we can grow sth out of it )

23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
23b ed3n ed4e Dc4e mc3e
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Soter on Feb 7th, 2008, 10:28am

Quote:
Instead, how about 24b De4e ee3n mc3e Cc2n Cc3x?


Ron, you mean Dd4e ed3n..., right?
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 9th, 2008, 4:28pm
Hey, they have free WiFi in airports now.  I love technology!


on 02/07/08 at 04:00:59, 99of9 wrote:
I quite like

23b  ha5s ha4e Dc4e hb4e

Anyone got a good refutation?

Chessandgo doesn't need to enter a wild, sharp line.  He can use two steps to push our horse back to b4 with his elephant.  In fact, those are the same two steps he needed to defend c3 in my line, so we are just two steps short.  Maybe my last two steps aren't the best, but it seems a waste to use them pushing the dog.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by RonWeasley on Feb 11th, 2008, 8:10am
Not much discussion.  Let's vote tomorrow (Tuesday).
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Janzert on Feb 11th, 2008, 12:34pm
Just for fun, after 23b ha5s ha4e df7s rf8s OpFor likes at a depth of 11 steps

pv Dc4e Ec5s Mf5w df6s b ed3e mc3e Cc2n hb4n w Rb2e Ce2s rb3s Cc3w

then switches to

pv Ha3n rb3w Rb2n Rb1n b Dc4e mc3n Dd4e mc4e w Ec5w Mf5w df6s Rf1n

during the 12 step search, but I didn't let it finish 12 steps deep.

Janzert
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 11th, 2008, 11:46pm
Well, I returned from vacation to find the pressure was on at work (poor Omar) and therefore decided to turn in early and get a good night's sleep to better survive the week.  As I was drifting off, however, I thought of the insanely sharp move 23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e, and all hope of sleep vanished.  That move would give us a direct threat to capture chessandgo's camel in f3, a threat to frame his horse in f6, and strategic threats such as occupying b3 with our horse or swinging our camel through f3 up to g5.  Of course any line as wild as this hinges on tactics rather than strategy, but I couldn't find a refutation in my head in bed, so here I am analyzing with the game client.


23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
.    24w Rf1n Ce2n rb3e Ha3e
.    .    24b Ce3s md3e rc3x me3e mf3e
.    .    .    25w Ce2n Hb3n Hb4n Hb5n
.    .    .    .    25b mg3n mg4n Hg6e mg5n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ec5e Ed5e he6e Ee5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b Mf5w ef4n dd7s rb8s =+
.    .    24b ef4e eg4n Hg6w eg5n
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5n he6s Ed6e
.    .    .    .    25b ha5s ha4e Dc4n hb4e
.    .    .    .    .    26w he5s Mf5w Me5w Dc5w (?)
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5s Ed4n md3n rc3x
.    .    .    .    25b eg6s eg5s Mf5e Hf6x dd7s -/+
.    24w Rf1n Ce2n Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e rb3e hb4s =+
.    24w Dc4w Rf1n Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5e hb5e hc5s dd7s
.    .    .    25w md3e Ed4s Ha3n rb3w
.    .    .    .    25b ef4s ef3n Rf2n Rf3x hc4n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3w me3w Ec3n md3w mc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4w Mf5s Mf4s Mf3x ee4e =+
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3n me3w Hg6s Mf5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4n hc5w hb5w Db4n -+
.    .    .    25w Ed4e Ee4n he6e Ee5n
.    .    .    .    25b md3e me3e mf3w Rf2n Rf3x -+
.    24w Rf1n Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e hb4e dd7s
.    .    .    25w rb3n Dc3w md3e Ed4s
.    .    .    .    25b ef4s ef3n Rf2n Rf3x hc4n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3w me3w Ec3n md3w mc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4w Mf5s Mf4s Mf3x ee4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Ec4e hc5s hc4s hc3x Ed4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b ef4n ef5n ef6s Hg6w Hf6x
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Db3e rb4s Dc3e rb3e rc3x =+


At the moment we have an extra rabbit, but chessandgo has counterplay.  These lines seems to end with us having an extra rabbit for no counterplay, or some other solid positional advantage that isn't compensated.  In other words it seems to improve our position.

Given the super-sharp tactics, I once again consulted Bomb, and once again got garbage suggestions.  It is becoming amply clear that Bomb sucks at tactics at postal speeds.  (If Bomb can't help in a position like this, when will it be able to help?)  We need some human eyes to look over these lines.  At the moment this is my new favorite move, but one oversight in my analysis could totally wreck it.

Sorry I didn't see this earlier, but given that I have seen it, I think we need to delay the vote and dip into reserve a bit to verify it.  If this move works, it should be well worth spending a few days of reserve.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by 99of9 on Feb 12th, 2008, 5:21am
I agree with the delay.  I haven't found a clear refutation so far.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by RonWeasley on Feb 12th, 2008, 7:12am
The best reply I could find was the last one on the tree.  That line looks rather forced.  I don't see much opportunity for counterplay and it ends with silver to move with gold weak on the west side.  We would be looking for an e-d attack.

So I like this new move.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Soter on Feb 12th, 2008, 9:31am
Hey to all! I'm glad that my proposal met with approval  :).

( EDIT:Whoops!  :o I was mistaken - Fritz, you beat me to it; you mentioned this move in "move 22 thread" ).

It looks like i'm going to have a decent amount of free time till end of February - so two more eyes to scan the board. Now I'll try to check some lines, especially from Karl's tree and post something later.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by jdb on Feb 12th, 2008, 10:16am

on 02/11/08 at 23:46:13, Fritzlein wrote:

23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
.    24w Rf1n Ce2n rb3e Ha3e
.    .    24b Ce3s md3e rc3x me3e mf3e
.    .    .    25w Ce2n Hb3n Hb4n Hb5n
.    .    .    .    25b mg3n mg4n Hg6e mg5n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ec5e Ed5e he6e Ee5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b Mf5w ef4n dd7s rb8s =+
.    .    24b ef4e eg4n Hg6w eg5n
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5n he6s Ed6e
.    .    .    .    25b ha5s ha4e Dc4n hb4e
.    .    .    .    .    26w he5s Mf5w Me5w Dc5w (?)
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5s Ed4n md3n rc3x
.    .    .    .    25b eg6s eg5s Mf5e Hf6x dd7s -/+
.    24w Rf1n Ce2n Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e rb3e hb4s =+
.    24w Dc4w Rf1n Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5e hb5e hc5s dd7s
.    .    .    25w md3e Ed4s Ha3n rb3w
.    .    .    .    25b ef4s ef3n Rf2n Rf3x hc4n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3w me3w Ec3n md3w mc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4w Mf5s Mf4s Mf3x ee4e =+
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3n me3w Hg6s Mf5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4n hc5w hb5w Db4n -+
.    .    .    25w Ed4e Ee4n he6e Ee5n
.    .    .    .    25b md3e me3e mf3w Rf2n Rf3x -+
.    24w Rf1n Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e hb4e dd7s
.    .    .    25w rb3n Dc3w md3e Ed4s
.    .    .    .    25b ef4s ef3n Rf2n Rf3x hc4n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3w me3w Ec3n md3w mc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4w Mf5s Mf4s Mf3x ee4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Ec4e hc5s hc4s hc3x Ed4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b ef4n ef5n ef6s Hg6w Hf6x
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Db3e rb4s Dc3e rb3e rc3x =+


In the final line:
23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
24w Rf1n Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s
24b ha5s ha4e hb4e dd7s
25w rb3n Dc3w hc4s Ed3w

Framing the horse. If silver also frames a horse, gold retreats the camel, likely ending up with a camel hostage after the horse exchange.

So lets say silver tries to get the camel out of danger,

25b md3e hc3x me3e mf3e Rf2n Rf3x

For this to turn out reasonable, silver needs to at least capture the horse. Can silver force a horse capture or not?
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 12th, 2008, 10:23am

on 02/07/08 at 09:44:21, Soter wrote:
4. My proposals ( not examined very deeply yet, but maybe we can grow sth out of it )

23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e

Sorry, Soter, I didn't read your post carefully enough.  I thought you were giving moves in a deeper line, not in the present position.  And I can't claim to have thought of the move first in the move 22 thread, because that was a very different position.  In future I will try not to ignore any of your proposals, especially when your suggestions are better than mine!  ::)
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 12th, 2008, 10:28am

on 02/12/08 at 10:16:48, jdb wrote:
In the final line:
23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
24w Rf1n Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s
24b ha5s ha4e hb4e dd7s
25w rb3n Dc3w hc4s Ed3w

Nice find.  What if we move our dog to c4 on 24b instead?  Does that limit our losses enough?  Does it open a new possibility for him?
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by UruramTururam on Feb 12th, 2008, 12:19pm
The analysis by Fritzlein looks promising.
I think we can give it a chance...  ;)
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Soter on Feb 12th, 2008, 12:28pm
Continuation of jdb's line:


25b ef4e eg4n hg6w eg5n                     ( gold H framed )
26w Ec4e Ed4w md3n hc3x                    ( silver H dead )
26b eg6s eg5s Mf5e Hf6x                       ( gold H dead )
27w Ec4n md4w mc4s mc3x Ec5s           ( silver M dead )
27b Mg5w eg4n Mf5n  Mf6x eg5w          ( gold M dead )


...and 28w sees silver rabbit dead as well, nullifying our so hard-won material advantage. Fritz's "send dog to c4" idea ( you mean 24b dd7s dd6w dc6s dc5s, right? )holds water IMO. The number of possible deviations, however, makes my head spin. Most importantly, is it possible that Gold may withdraw his M, sacrificing his H and still find some way to finish off our pieces near c3 (?!) Maybe I am overreacting, but we all know Jean's ingenuity.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by The_Jeh on Feb 12th, 2008, 1:01pm

on 02/12/08 at 12:28:27, Soter wrote:
 Most importantly, is it possible that Gold may withdraw his M, sacrificing his H and still find some way to finish off our pieces near c3 (?!) Maybe I am overreacting, but we all know Jean's ingenuity.


What follows, for example, after

23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Md5s

This puts the pressure on c3, as it makes it more difficult for our ha5 to come to the rescue of our camel. It also looks like we cannot go after the lone horse on g5 without losing our camel via 25w Dc4w Md4w Ec5e Ed5s or 25w Ec5e Dc4n Md4w Ed5s, but I'm probably missing something.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Soter on Feb 12th, 2008, 2:20pm

Quote:
What follows, for example, after  

23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
24b Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Md5s

This puts the pressure on c3, as it makes it more difficult for our ha5 to come to the rescue of our camel. It also looks like we cannot go after the lone horse on g5 without losing our camel via 25w Dc4w Md4w Ec5e Ed5s or 25w Ec5e Dc4n Md4w Ed5s, but I'm probably missing something.


John,
Some responses to your 24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Md5s came to my mind ( not that they satisfy me  :-/ ):

1. 24b ef4n ef5s Hg5w xxxx

2. 24b ef4n ef5w Hg5w xxxx ( step #4 : dd7s/ha5s/something else? )

3. 24b he6e hf6e ef4w xxxx ( Gold H won't mess up with our rabbits that way )

All of them do not provide sufficient protection for our M though. If you aren't missing anything then my proposed move 23 is probably a dud. I'm going to have a second look tomorrow as I'm a bit sleepy now.

P.S. What if your 24w features gold M going north instead of south (Md5n)?
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 12th, 2008, 3:52pm

on 02/12/08 at 13:01:22, The_Jeh wrote:
What follows, for example, after

23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Md5s

What about moving our camel to threaten his horse?
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by The_Jeh on Feb 12th, 2008, 4:22pm
I think he will probably then push our camel onto f6, creating a strong threat against our b3 rabbit.

On the other hand, a good reply for us might be 25b ef4w Md4n ee4w ha5s, so maybe this move is all right.  But 26w Ef5w Md5w Ee5w Ed5n re-complicates things a bit, as does 26w Ef5w mf6s Md5n Rf1n so I would like to know your opinions on continuation from here, or whether another 25w, 25b, or 26w is better. When I go forward in time, everything seems to turn out good for us. I have not examined variations like 25w Ec5e Ed5e he6e/he6w Ee5n, which could be viable.

Soter, I had considered your Md5n variation of 24w in the past, but stopped looking at it for some reason I have forgotten. I'll have to look at it again. I think it was that it results in gold losing control of his camel for inadequate compensation.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by jdb on Feb 12th, 2008, 6:34pm

on 02/12/08 at 13:01:22, The_Jeh wrote:
What follows, for example, after

23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Md5s


24b md3e me3e mf3e mg3n
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by jdb on Feb 12th, 2008, 6:50pm
In the final line using the dog instead of the horse:

23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
24w Rf1n Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s
24b dd7s dd6w dc6s dc5s
25w rb3n Dc3w hc4s Ed3w
25b md3e dc3x me3e mf3e Rf2n Rf3x

At this moment its 2R for a d and the b4 r is circling the drain.


26w Hg6s Mf5w Ec4n Ec5e    (Gold could have something better here...)
26b mg3n Hg5n mg4n ef4n

Silver ends up down a dog for a rabbit, but has a horse held hostage (or framed) by the camel. Now if I only knew who was winning...
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 13th, 2008, 1:25pm

on 02/12/08 at 18:50:50, jdb wrote:
In the final line using the dog instead of the horse:

23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
24w Rf1n Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s
24b dd7s dd6w dc6s dc5s
25w rb3n Dc3w hc4s Ed3w
25b md3e dc3x me3e mf3e Rf2n Rf3x
26w Hg6s Mf5w Ec4n Ec5e
26b mg3n Hg5n mg4n ef4n


This is indeed very unclear.  We are not down material: in fact we have two rabbits for our dog, which I rate as material equality.  I don't think that Gold has time to capture our b4 rabbit due to the framed or hostage horse.  However it is not clear to me who has the positional advantage.  A couple of lines:


27w Me5s Ed5e he6w Ee5n
.    27b Hg6e mg5n ef5s ha5e
.    .    28w Dd2n Dd3n Me4s Ce2e
.    .    .    28b ef4w df7s df6s rb4w
.    .    .    .    29w ra4e Ha3n Rg1n Rg2n
.    .    .    .    .    29b rb4e hb5s Db3e hb4s  (?)
.    .    .    28b ef4w Dd4w ee4w rb4w
.    .    .    .    29w Ee6s Ee5e ra4e Ha3n
.    .    .    .    .    29b Dc4n ed4w Dc5n Dc6x hb5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    30w Ef5e Eg5w mg6s Hh6w (?)
27w Ed5n he6e Ed6e Me5s
.    27b ef5s hf6s Hg6w mg5n
.    .    28w Ce2n Me4n hf5e Me5e
.    .    .    28b Mf5w ef4n Me5w ef5w
.    .    .    .    29w Hf6s Ee6w Md5s Ed6e
.    .    .    .    .    29b ee5s Ce3e Cf3x ee4s rh7s =+
.    .    28w Dd2n Dd3n Me4s Ce2e
.    .    .    28b ef4w Me3w ee4s rh7s =+
27w he6e Me5n Ed5e Ce2e
.    27b ce7w ha5e rb4w hb5s
.    .    28w Db3e Dc3e Ha3e ra4s
.    .    .    28b Hg6e mg5n ef5s ef4w +=
.    .    28w Me6w cd7n Md6n Ee5n
.    .    .    28b cc7w Hg6e mg5n ef5w =+
27w he6e Me5n Ed5e Ha3n
.    27b Hg6e mg5n ef5s ef4w
.    .    28w Me6w Md6n cc7s cc6x Md7w
.    .    .    28b ee4w ed4n ed5n ed6n
.    .    .    .    29w Ee5w Ed5n rb4e Ha4e
.    .    .    .    .    29b rc8e Mc7n ed7w hf6w =+
.    .    28w Db3e rb4s Dc3e rb3e rc3x
.    .    .    28b rf8w cc7e ee4w ed4n
.    .    .    .    29w Ee5e Ef5e Eg5w mg6s
.    .    .    .    .    29b ed5e rg7s mg5e rg6s
.    .    .    .    .    .    30w Ha4e Hb4n Hb5n Dd3n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    30b ee5w ed5n ha5e hb5e =+


I can't think of this line as a refutation of Soter's move, because we come out ahead in many lines, but it doesn't clearly give us an advantage like I first thought, and in many lines I'm still note sure who is winning at the end.

I've spent too long analyzing at this depth since the game probably won't go in this direction.  I'll try now for some analysis closer to the root.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 13th, 2008, 3:12pm

on 02/12/08 at 16:22:35, The_Jeh wrote:
I think he will probably then push our camel onto f6, creating a strong threat against our b3 rabbit.

On the other hand, a good reply for us might be 25b ef4w Md4n ee4w ha5s, so maybe this move is all right.  But 26w Ef5w Md5w Ee5w Ed5n re-complicates things a bit, as does 26w Ef5w mf6s Md5n Rf1n so I would like to know your opinions on continuation from here, or whether another 25w, 25b, or 26w is better. When I go forward in time, everything seems to turn out good for us. I have not examined variations like 25w Ec5e Ed5e he6e/he6w Ee5n, which could be viable.


Nice analysis.  It's hard to ever get closure on these wild positions, but going forward just one more move in your lines it seems we stand somewhat better, i.e. your 24w is not a refutation of Soter's move.


23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
.    24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Md5s
.    .    24b md3e me3n me4n me5e
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5e mf5n Ee5e
.    .    .    .    25b ef4w Md4n ee4w ha5s
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ef5w Md5w Ee5w Ed5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ed4n Mc5n ed5w mf6e =+
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ef5w mf6s Md5n Rf1n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ed4n Md6w Mc6x ed5n ha4e -+
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5e he6e Ee5n
.    .    .    .    25b Hg5n mf5e hf6s ef4w =+
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5e he6w Ee5n
.    .    .    .    25b Hg5n mf5e Hg6e mg5n =+
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 13th, 2008, 3:24pm
Well, rats.  It looks like I can't get around JDB's refutation of Soter's move by defending with a dog, because the dog isn't strong enough:


23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
.    24w Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s Rf1n
.    .    24b dd7s dd6w dc6s dc5s
.    .    .    25w Ha3n Ha4e rb3w Dc3w
.    .    .    .    25b ef4e eg4n Hg6w eg5n
.    .    .    .    .    26w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e +=
.    .    .    .    25b ha5e hb5e dc4s hc5s
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ce2n Dd2e md3s Ed4s
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4e eg4n Hg6w eg5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Ed3n Ed4s hc4e dc3x Rg1n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b eg6s eg5s Mf5e Hf6x rh7s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Ed3w md2n Ec3n md3w mc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b Mg5w eg4n Mf5n Mf6x eg5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29w Ec4n hd4w hc4s hc3x Ec5s +=


But we can't defend with the horse instead of the dog on 24b, because losing the horse is too costly.  So suddenly I'm leaning against Soter's move 23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e because 24w Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s Rf1n appears to refute it.  Let me look again at my original 23b from last week and other proposals.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 13th, 2008, 3:29pm

on 02/07/08 at 04:00:59, 99of9 wrote:
I quite like

23b  ha5s ha4e Dc4e hb4e

Anyone got a good refutation?


How would you continue after 24w hc4w Ec5s Ce2n Rf1n?  I'm not sure what would be a good plan from that position that we shouldn't start doing on 23b instead...
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by The_Jeh on Feb 13th, 2008, 3:38pm
If we use Soter's move, could a possible 24b be 24b ha5s ha4e Mf5n ef4n? This is the only way I see of defending c3 without putting a piece on c4. Chessandgo won't trade, because we'll have his horse, too. Or is this easily refuted, too?
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 13th, 2008, 3:50pm

on 02/11/08 at 12:34:54, Janzert wrote:
Just for fun, after 23b ha5s ha4e df7s rf8s OpFor likes at a depth of 11 steps

pv Dc4e Ec5s Mf5w df6s b ed3e mc3e Cc2n hb4n w Rb2e Ce2s rb3s Cc3w

then switches to

pv Ha3n rb3w Rb2n Rb1n b Dc4e mc3n Dd4e mc4e w Ec5w Mf5w df6s Rf1n

during the 12 step search, but I didn't let it finish 12 steps deep.

Janzert


I hadn't considered the first possiblity, because I assumed that the Gold camel would prefer to stay out to the center and out of trouble, but I find it difficult to refute.  After

23b ha5s ha4e df7s rf8s
24w Dc4e Ec5s Mf5w df6s
24b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e

we seem to be holding our own, but it is unclear, and I change my mind who is winning each time I play it out.

The second possibility is also very interesting.  A couple of weeks ago I had played some lines where chessandgo lets our rabbit to a3 and our camel out to b3, and I concluded that in general our camel is very hard to take hostage from that setup, and in fact we have a good chance for the camel to escape up the b-file pushing something in front of it to eventually threaten in c6.

However, if Gold combines rabbit pull with rabbit advances, it makes it harder for our camel to get out, and the advanced horse/rabbit/dog for Gold are starting to get populous enough to defend each other.  I like a move on the lines of

23b ha5s ha4e df7s rf8s
24w Ha3n rb3w Rb2n Rb1n
24b hb4n Rb3n mc3w ed3n

But this is very tricky because our camel can sometimes get blockaded on b3.  I haven't played many positions like this, so I have trouble evaluating it.  I'll have to chalk it up as another "unclear" line after my suggested 23b.  Is every line from this position unclear?  I have to give OpFor some credit, though, as its lines seem more to the point than Bomb's.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 13th, 2008, 4:42pm

on 02/13/08 at 15:38:58, The_Jeh wrote:
If we use Soter's move, could a possible 24b be 24b ha5s ha4e Mf5n ef4n? This is the only way I see of defending c3 without putting a piece on c4. Chessandgo won't trade, because we'll have his horse, too. Or is this easily refuted, too?

That's trivial to refute.  Or, well, it took me four tries to "refute" it and then the best I could do for Gold was equality.  So I guess you have rehabilitated Soter's move in my mind up to equality or a tiny advantage for us, since there was only the one critical line beating it.


23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
.    24w Dc4s Ec5s Ec4e Rf1n
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e Mf5n ef4n
.    .    .    25w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e
.    .    .    .    25b ef5e eg5s Hg6s Mf6x dd7s
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ee3n Ee4e Ef4n Ce2n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b hb4e dd6s dd5s dd4s =+
.    .    .    .    .    26w Dc3e rb3e rc3x Ee3n Ee4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b Hg5w eg4n Hf5n Hf6x eg5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Ed4w Ha3n Ce2n Dd2e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b ef5w ee5s Ce3e ee4s =+
.    .    .    25w md3e Ed4s he6w Mf6w
.    .    .    .    25b ef5w hd6s Me6w ee5n
.    .    .    .    .    26w me3e mf3x Ed3e Dc3e rb3e rc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ee6e ef6w Hg6w Hf6x hb4n -+
.    .    .    .    .    26w me3e mf3x Ed3e Hg6s Hg5s
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b Md6w Mc6x ee6w hb4e hd5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Dc3e rb3e Ha3e Ee3n =


But wait, that last line isn't equality: we can save our rabbit and remain a rabbit ahead.  So maybe Soter's line is actually still to our advantage?  I'm changing my mind so many times I'm getting dizzy!
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by jdb on Feb 14th, 2008, 8:41am
For this line:

23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
.    24w Dc4s Ec5s Ec4e Rf1n
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e Mf5n ef4n

25w Ed4w md3n Dc3e rb3e rc3x
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by The_Jeh on Feb 14th, 2008, 8:58am

on 02/14/08 at 08:41:46, jdb wrote:
For this line:

23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
.    24w Dc4s Ec5s Ec4e Rf1n
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e Mf5n ef4n

25w Ed4w md3n Dc3e rb3e rc3x


25b dd7s dd6s md4e me4n [this makes f6 a nightmare for c&g]
26w he6w Mf6w Ec4n hb4e
26b ef5n ce7n Me6n ef6w

or 26w he6w Mf6w Ec4e Ed4e
26b hd6n ef5n Me6w ef6w

leaves us with a huge advantage, I think.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by RonWeasley on Feb 14th, 2008, 1:11pm

on 02/14/08 at 08:58:42, The_Jeh wrote:
25b dd7s dd6s md4e me4n [this makes f6 a nightmare for c&g]
26w he6w Mf6w Ec4n hb4e
26b ef5n ce7n Me6n ef6w

or 26w he6w Mf6w Ec4e Ed4e
26b hd6n ef5n Me6w ef6w

leaves us with a huge advantage, I think.


Or for 26b we just frame the camel and win it.

So I expect gold to take the .    .    25w md3e Ed4s he6w Mf6w  line.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Soter on Feb 14th, 2008, 3:23pm
Is 24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Hg5e a viable answer to my 23b? We haven't looked at this one I think.



Quote:
23b ha5s ha4e df7s rf8s
24w Ha3n rb3w Rb2n Rb1n
24b hb4n Rb3n mc3w ed3n

But this is very tricky because our camel can sometimes get blockaded on b3.  I haven't played many positions like this, so I have trouble evaluating it.  I'll have to chalk it up as another "unclear" line after my suggested 23b.


Only looked at it for a while, but my first impression is not good: blockade seems very probable.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by The_Jeh on Feb 14th, 2008, 4:13pm

on 02/14/08 at 15:23:25, Soter wrote:
Is 24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Hg5e a viable answer to my 23b? We haven't looked at this one I think.

Only looked at it for a while, but my first impression is not good: blockade seems very probable.


Hmm...
23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
        24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Hg5e
                  24b ef4w ee4w Md5e ed4n
                          25w Hh5w Hg5w he6w/e Me5n
                                     25b ed5e ce7n Me6n ee5n =+
                          25w Hh5w Hg5w Me5s Hf5e
                                     25b ed5e ee5e Me4n ????(ha5s?)-+
                          25w Dc4s Ec5s Ec4e Hh5s
                                     25b Me5e ed5e Mf5n Mf6x ee5e
                                             26w rb3n Dc3w md3w mc3x Ed4s
                                                      26b ef5s ef4e eg4w Hh4w
                                                               27w Rg1n Rg2n Ce2e Hg4e
                                                                          27b he6e hf6e ha5e rb4w -+


My tree is likely off a little (or a lot), but what is certain is that this 23b is very complex (which of itself favors us). I think though, that there is no clear way to refute it, and well into our reserve, it is time to think about voting. If this move does get played, I will be quite curious to see c&g's reaction.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Soter on Feb 14th, 2008, 4:50pm

Quote:
I think though, that there is no clear way to refute it, and it is time to think about voting.


Good point. I spent a lot of time this evening dabbling with different branches of our move trees ( they are huge! that's great) , but ran out of ideas. What do others think? Do we vote tomorrow?
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Soter on Feb 14th, 2008, 5:02pm
Move list ( not sure if complete )

1.   23b  ha5s ha4e df7s rf8s    ( Fritz )
2.   23b  ed3e ec3w Ce2n dd7s (Ururam )
3.   23b  ha5s ha4e Dc4e hb4e ( 99 )
4.   23b  ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e ( Soter )
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by The_Jeh on Feb 14th, 2008, 5:44pm
Here's the master tree for Soter's move. Impressive, isn't it? Notice the exquisite foliage. The opportunity for me to error in compiling this is huge, so if you spot a discrepancy, please make it known.

I am all for voting tomorrow, too.



23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
.    24w Rf1n Ce2n rb3e Ha3e
.    .    24b Ce3s md3e rc3x me3e mf3e
.    .    .    25w Ce2n Hb3n Hb4n Hb5n
.    .    .    .    25b mg3n mg4n Hg6e mg5n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ec5e Ed5e he6e Ee5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b Mf5w ef4n dd7s rb8s =+
.    .    24b ef4e eg4n Hg6w eg5n
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5n he6s Ed6e
.    .    .    .    25b ha5s ha4e Dc4n hb4e
.    .    .    .    .    26w he5s Mf5w Me5w Dc5w (?)
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5s Ed4n md3n rc3x
.    .    .    .    25b eg6s eg5s Mf5e Hf6x dd7s -/+
.    24w Rf1n Ce2n Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e rb3e hb4s =+
.    24w Dc4w Rf1n Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5e hb5e hc5s dd7s
.    .    .    25w md3e Ed4s Ha3n rb3w
.    .    .    .    25b ef4s ef3n Rf2n Rf3x hc4n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3w me3w Ec3n md3w mc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4w Mf5s Mf4s Mf3x ee4e =+
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3n me3w Hg6s Mf5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4n hc5w hb5w Db4n -+
.    .    .    25w Ed4e Ee4n he6e Ee5n
.    .    .    .    25b md3e me3e mf3w Rf2n Rf3x -+
.    24w Rf1n Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e hb4e dd7s
.    .    .    25w rb3n Dc3w md3e Ed4s
.    .    .    .    25b ef4s ef3n Rf2n Rf3x hc4n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3w me3w Ec3n md3w mc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4w Mf5s Mf4s Mf3x ee4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Ec4e hc5s hc4s hc3x Ed4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b ef4n ef5n ef6s Hg6w Hf6x
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Db3e rb4s Dc3e rb3e rc3x =+
.    .    .    25w rb3n Dc3w hc4s Ed3w +=
.    .    24b dd7s dd6w dc6s dc5s  
.    .    .    25w rb3n Dc3w hc4s Ed3w
.    .    .    .    25b md3e dc3x me3e mf3e Rf2n Rf3x
.    .    .    .    .    26w Hg6s Mf5w Ec4n Ec5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b mg3n Hg5n mg4n ef4n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Me5s Ed5e he6w Ee5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b Hg6e mg5n ef5s ha5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Dd2n Dd3n Me4s Ce2e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b ef4w df7s df6s rb4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29w ra4e Ha3n Rg1n Rg2n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29b rb4e hb5s Db3e hb4s  (?)
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b ef4w Dd4w ee4w rb4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29w Ee6s Ee5e ra4e Ha3n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29b Dc4n ed4w Dc5n Dc6x hb5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    30w Ef5e Eg5w mg6s Hh6w (?)
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Ed5n he6e Ed6e Me5s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b ef5s hf6s Hg6w mg5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Ce2n Me4n hf5e Me5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b Mf5w ef4n Me5w ef5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29w Hf6s Ee6w Md5s Ed6e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29b ee5s Ce3e Cf3x ee4s rh7s =+
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Dd2n Dd3n Me4s Ce2e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b ef4w Me3w ee4s rh7s =+
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w he6e Me5n Ed5e Ce2e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b ce7w ha5e rb4w hb5s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Db3e Dc3e Ha3e ra4s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b Hg6e mg5n ef5s ef4w +=
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Me6w cd7n Md6n Ee5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b cc7w Hg6e mg5n ef5w =+
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w he6e Me5n Ed5e Ha3n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b Hg6e mg5n ef5s ef4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Me6w Md6n cc7s cc6x Md7w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b ee4w ed4n ed5n ed6n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29w Ee5w Ed5n rb4e Ha4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29b rc8e Mc7n ed7w hf6w =+
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Db3e rb4s Dc3e rb3e rc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b rf8w cc7e ee4w ed4n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29w Ee5e Ef5e Eg5w mg6s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29b ed5e rg7s mg5e rg6s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    30w Ha4e Hb4n Hb5n Dd3n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    30b ee5w ed5n ha5e hb5e =+
.    .    .    25w Ha3n Ha4e rb3w Dc3w
.    .    .    .    25b ef4e eg4n Hg6w eg5n
.    .    .    .    .    26w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e +=
.    .    .    .    25b ha5e hb5e dc4s hc5s
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ce2n Dd2e md3s Ed4s
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4e eg4n Hg6w eg5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Ed3n Ed4s hc4e dc3x Rg1n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b eg6s eg5s Mf5e Hf6x rh7s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Ed3w md2n Ec3n md3w mc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b Mg5w eg4n Mf5n Mf6x eg5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29w Ec4n hd4w hc4s hc3x Ec5s +=
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e Mf5n ef4n
.    .    .    25w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e
.    .    .    .    25b ef5e eg5s Hg6s Mf6x dd7s
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ee3n Ee4e Ef4n Ce2n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b hb4e dd6s dd5s dd4s =+
.    .    .    .    .    26w Dc3e rb3e rc3x Ee3n Ee4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b Hg5w eg4n Hf5n Hf6x eg5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Ed4w Ha3n Ce2n Dd2e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b ef5w ee5s Ce3e ee4s =+
.    .    .    25w md3e Ed4s he6w Mf6w
.    .    .    .    25b ef5w hd6s Me6w ee5n
.    .    .    .    .    26w me3e mf3x Ed3e Dc3e rb3e rc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ee6e ef6w Hg6w Hf6x hb4n -+
.    .    .    .    .    26w me3e mf3x Ed3e Hg6s Hg5s
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b Md6w Mc6x ee6w hb4e hd5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Dc3e rb3e Ha3e Ee3n =
.    .    .    25w Ed4w md3n Dc3e rb3e rc3x
.    .    .    .    25b dd7s dd6s md4e me4n =+
.    24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Md5s
.    .    24b md3e me3n me4n me5e
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5e mf5n Ee5e
.    .    .    .    25b ef4w Md4n ee4w ha5s
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ef5w Md5w Ee5w Ed5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ed4n Mc5n ed5w mf6e =+
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ef5w mf6s Md5n Rf1n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ed4n Md6w Mc6x ed5n ha4e -+
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5e he6e Ee5n
.    .    .    .    25b Hg5n mf5e hf6s ef4w =+
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5e he6w Ee5n
.    .    .    .    25b Hg5n mf5e Hg6e mg5n =+
.    .    24b md3e me3e mf3e mg3n =+
.    24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Hg5e
.    .    24b ef4w ee4w Md5e ed4n
.    .    .    25w Hh5w Hg5w he6w/e Me5n
.    .    .    .    25b ed5e ce7n Me6n ee5n =+
.    .    .    25w Hh5w Hg5w Me5s Hf5e
.    .    .    .    25b ed5e ee5e Me4n(ha5s?)-+
.    .    .    25w Dc4s Ec5s Ec4e Hh5s
.    .    .    .    26w rb3n Dc3w md3w mc3x Ed4s
.    .    .    .    .    26b ef5s ef4e eg4w Hh4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    27w Rg1n Rg2n Ce2e Hg4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b he6e hf6e ha5e rb4w -+


Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 14th, 2008, 9:29pm
Golly, with a tree like that, I don't think I could bear to vote for anything else and lose all that analysis!  I'm ready to vote for Soter's move any time, unless someone re-refutes it...  :P  
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Soter on Feb 15th, 2008, 7:18am

Quote:
Here's the master tree for Soter's move. Impressive, isn't it?


Wow, theJeh, this is the largest tree in the Mob history . My jaw will hit the floor if chessandgo escapes from this one .


Quote:
Golly, with a tree like that, I don't think I could bear to vote for anything else and lose all that analysis!


Sunk cost fallacy may be dangerous... ;)
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by UruramTururam on Feb 15th, 2008, 8:44am

on 02/14/08 at 21:29:13, Fritzlein wrote:
Golly, with a tree like that, I don't think I could bear to vote for anything else and lose all that analysis!  


I back it.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Soter on Feb 15th, 2008, 11:07am
Voting has begun. Thanks Ron!
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by RonWeasley on Feb 16th, 2008, 10:33am
By a unanimous 10-0 decision: 23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e .   I keep thinking I'm going to move wrong one of these times.

And chessandgo comments that we seem to be moving in a Bomb-like way.  He said that after we took his rabbit.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Soter on Feb 16th, 2008, 12:28pm

Quote:
By a unanimous 10-0 decision: 23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e .


Is it the first unanimous vote in mob history?

Let's hope it won't lead us astray.
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 16th, 2008, 4:13pm
For the record

   .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .  1.  2.  3.  4.  5.
1. ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e (e->f4, m->d3)  .    .   -  10  10  10  10
2. ha5s ha4e df7s rf8s (h->b4, d->f6, r->f7)    0   -   5   7   7
3. ha5s ha4e Dc4e hb4e (push D)   .    .    .   0   4   -   4   4
4. ed3e ec3w Ce2n dd7s (pull C, d->d6) .    .   0   2   2   -   2
5. ed3n ed4e Dc4e mc3e (pull D, m->d3) .    .   0   2   2   2   -
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 16th, 2008, 4:28pm

on 02/16/08 at 10:33:09, RonWeasley wrote:
And chessandgo comments that we seem to be moving in a Bomb-like way.  He said that after we took his rabbit.

We play like Bomb?  What an insult!  Bomb is at best mediocre at postal speeds.  I vote that we tell chessandgo he plays a lot like Gnobot.   ;D
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by arimaa_master on Feb 16th, 2008, 5:01pm

on 02/16/08 at 16:28:16, Fritzlein wrote:
We play like Bomb?  What an insult!  Bomb is at best mediocre at postal speeds.  I vote that we tell chessandgo he plays a lot like Gnobot.   ;D


Yeah I agree  ;D
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by 99of9 on Feb 16th, 2008, 10:26pm
Perhaps we should wait until he sacrifices all his pieces to blockade our elephant. :-)
Title: Re: Move 23
Post by chessandgo on Dec 30th, 2010, 10:25am

on 02/14/08 at 17:44:03, The_Jeh wrote:
Here's the master tree for Soter's move. Impressive, isn't it? Notice the exquisite foliage. The opportunity for me to error in compiling this is huge, so if you spot a discrepancy, please make it known.

I am all for voting tomorrow, too.



23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
.    24w Rf1n Ce2n rb3e Ha3e
.    .    24b Ce3s md3e rc3x me3e mf3e
.    .    .    25w Ce2n Hb3n Hb4n Hb5n
.    .    .    .    25b mg3n mg4n Hg6e mg5n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ec5e Ed5e he6e Ee5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b Mf5w ef4n dd7s rb8s =+
.    .    24b ef4e eg4n Hg6w eg5n
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5n he6s Ed6e
.    .    .    .    25b ha5s ha4e Dc4n hb4e
.    .    .    .    .    26w he5s Mf5w Me5w Dc5w (?)
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5s Ed4n md3n rc3x
.    .    .    .    25b eg6s eg5s Mf5e Hf6x dd7s -/+
.    24w Rf1n Ce2n Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e rb3e hb4s =+
.    24w Dc4w Rf1n Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5e hb5e hc5s dd7s
.    .    .    25w md3e Ed4s Ha3n rb3w
.    .    .    .    25b ef4s ef3n Rf2n Rf3x hc4n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3w me3w Ec3n md3w mc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4w Mf5s Mf4s Mf3x ee4e =+
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3n me3w Hg6s Mf5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4n hc5w hb5w Db4n -+
.    .    .    25w Ed4e Ee4n he6e Ee5n
.    .    .    .    25b md3e me3e mf3w Rf2n Rf3x -+
.    24w Rf1n Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e hb4e dd7s
.    .    .    25w rb3n Dc3w md3e Ed4s
.    .    .    .    25b ef4s ef3n Rf2n Rf3x hc4n
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ed3w me3w Ec3n md3w mc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4w Mf5s Mf4s Mf3x ee4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Ec4e hc5s hc4s hc3x Ed4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b ef4n ef5n ef6s Hg6w Hf6x
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Db3e rb4s Dc3e rb3e rc3x =+
.    .    .    25w rb3n Dc3w hc4s Ed3w +=
.    .    24b dd7s dd6w dc6s dc5s  
.    .    .    25w rb3n Dc3w hc4s Ed3w
.    .    .    .    25b md3e dc3x me3e mf3e Rf2n Rf3x
.    .    .    .    .    26w Hg6s Mf5w Ec4n Ec5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b mg3n Hg5n mg4n ef4n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Me5s Ed5e he6w Ee5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b Hg6e mg5n ef5s ha5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Dd2n Dd3n Me4s Ce2e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b ef4w df7s df6s rb4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29w ra4e Ha3n Rg1n Rg2n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29b rb4e hb5s Db3e hb4s  (?)
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b ef4w Dd4w ee4w rb4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29w Ee6s Ee5e ra4e Ha3n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29b Dc4n ed4w Dc5n Dc6x hb5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    30w Ef5e Eg5w mg6s Hh6w (?)
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Ed5n he6e Ed6e Me5s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b ef5s hf6s Hg6w mg5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Ce2n Me4n hf5e Me5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b Mf5w ef4n Me5w ef5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29w Hf6s Ee6w Md5s Ed6e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29b ee5s Ce3e Cf3x ee4s rh7s =+
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Dd2n Dd3n Me4s Ce2e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b ef4w Me3w ee4s rh7s =+
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w he6e Me5n Ed5e Ce2e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b ce7w ha5e rb4w hb5s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Db3e Dc3e Ha3e ra4s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b Hg6e mg5n ef5s ef4w +=
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Me6w cd7n Md6n Ee5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b cc7w Hg6e mg5n ef5w =+
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w he6e Me5n Ed5e Ha3n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b Hg6e mg5n ef5s ef4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Me6w Md6n cc7s cc6x Md7w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b ee4w ed4n ed5n ed6n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29w Ee5w Ed5n rb4e Ha4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29b rc8e Mc7n ed7w hf6w =+
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Db3e rb4s Dc3e rb3e rc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b rf8w cc7e ee4w ed4n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29w Ee5e Ef5e Eg5w mg6s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29b ed5e rg7s mg5e rg6s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    30w Ha4e Hb4n Hb5n Dd3n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    30b ee5w ed5n ha5e hb5e =+
.    .    .    25w Ha3n Ha4e rb3w Dc3w
.    .    .    .    25b ef4e eg4n Hg6w eg5n
.    .    .    .    .    26w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e +=
.    .    .    .    25b ha5e hb5e dc4s hc5s
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ce2n Dd2e md3s Ed4s
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4e eg4n Hg6w eg5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Ed3n Ed4s hc4e dc3x Rg1n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b eg6s eg5s Mf5e Hf6x rh7s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Ed3w md2n Ec3n md3w mc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b Mg5w eg4n Mf5n Mf6x eg5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29w Ec4n hd4w hc4s hc3x Ec5s +=
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e Mf5n ef4n
.    .    .    25w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e
.    .    .    .    25b ef5e eg5s Hg6s Mf6x dd7s
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ee3n Ee4e Ef4n Ce2n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b hb4e dd6s dd5s dd4s =+
.    .    .    .    .    26w Dc3e rb3e rc3x Ee3n Ee4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b Hg5w eg4n Hf5n Hf6x eg5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Ed4w Ha3n Ce2n Dd2e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b ef5w ee5s Ce3e ee4s =+
.    .    .    25w md3e Ed4s he6w Mf6w
.    .    .    .    25b ef5w hd6s Me6w ee5n
.    .    .    .    .    26w me3e mf3x Ed3e Dc3e rb3e rc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ee6e ef6w Hg6w Hf6x hb4n -+
.    .    .    .    .    26w me3e mf3x Ed3e Hg6s Hg5s
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b Md6w Mc6x ee6w hb4e hd5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Dc3e rb3e Ha3e Ee3n =
.    .    .    25w Ed4w md3n Dc3e rb3e rc3x
.    .    .    .    25b dd7s dd6s md4e me4n =+
.    24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Md5s
.    .    24b md3e me3n me4n me5e
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5e mf5n Ee5e
.    .    .    .    25b ef4w Md4n ee4w ha5s
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ef5w Md5w Ee5w Ed5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ed4n Mc5n ed5w mf6e =+
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ef5w mf6s Md5n Rf1n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ed4n Md6w Mc6x ed5n ha4e -+
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5e he6e Ee5n
.    .    .    .    25b Hg5n mf5e hf6s ef4w =+
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5e he6w Ee5n
.    .    .    .    25b Hg5n mf5e Hg6e mg5n =+
.    .    24b md3e me3e mf3e mg3n =+
.    24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Hg5e
.    .    24b ef4w ee4w Md5e ed4n
.    .    .    25w Hh5w Hg5w he6w/e Me5n
.    .    .    .    25b ed5e ce7n Me6n ee5n =+
.    .    .    25w Hh5w Hg5w Me5s Hf5e
.    .    .    .    25b ed5e ee5e Me4n(ha5s?)-+
.    .    .    25w Dc4s Ec5s Ec4e Hh5s
.    .    .    .    26w rb3n Dc3w md3w mc3x Ed4s
.    .    .    .    .    26b ef5s ef4e eg4w Hh4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    27w Rg1n Rg2n Ce2e Hg4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b he6e hf6e ha5e rb4w -+



W.
O.
W.

The cool thing with my book chapter on this Mob game is that whenever I can't find a refutation, I just have to look into the Mob's forum to find it. The bad thing, obviously, is that everyone who reads my chapter is going to say: "your analysis is so superficial c&g, half of your proposal have been refuted way before you even considered them!" :)


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