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Title: Move 24 Post by mdk on Feb 17th, 2008, 1:05pm Chessandgo plays 24w Ec5e Ed5s Hg6s Mf5w |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 17th, 2008, 1:42pm It's a non-tree move, and a brilliant one at that. This is getting a bit frustrating. The best I can do at the moment is 24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w, or maybe 24b he6e hf6e ef4n xxxx. The latter probably has more potential. Any other ideas? |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by mdk on Feb 17th, 2008, 1:50pm on 02/17/08 at 13:42:17, The_Jeh wrote:
Well another possibility is 24b ef4n he6e hf6e xxxx (moving the horse on a5 perhaps). 24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w looks simpler at the moment and I think if we get a simple trade of pieces we may end up slightly positionally ahead because of the extra time it will take gold to capture the rabbit. I guess we need to look at some lines. [edit] looks like The Jeh just beet me to suggesting 24b ef4n he6e hf6e xxxx |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 17th, 2008, 2:58pm Mdk and I have made a small tree for the 24b ef4n he6e hf6e xxxx move. We've modified it to include the fourth step of ha5e. Please try to point out deviations that profit gold. 24b he6e hf6e ef4n ha5e . 25w Ed4n Me5s Ed5s Ce2e(or Rf1n) . . 25b ef5s Me4n ef4w hb5e . . . 26w Hg5w Me5w Hf5e Hg5s . . . . 26b ee4n Md5n ee5w xxxx =+ . . . 26w Hg5w Me5w Hf5e Ha3n . . . . 26b ee4n Md5n ee5w dd7n . . . . . 27w Ha4n Ha5n Ha6e Hg5w . . . . . . 27b Md6n ed5n xxxx xxxx =+ |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 17th, 2008, 3:45pm Aaargh, how come I missed this one! >:( Now it looks so obvious! I'm gonna make a deeper analysis tomorrow - now I think the perfect response should accomplish ( or at least try to accomplish ) three objectives: 1. Threatening to capture Gold M and H at the same time - so Silver E -> f5 , 2. Closing escape routes for Gold M ( slightly harder...), 3. Threatening Gold D ( c4 ). Maybe something like ef4n ha5e hb5e xxxx ??? |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 17th, 2008, 7:56pm With this more realistic tree, I'm beginning to favor the other move, 24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w, more. 24b he6e hf6e ef4n ha5e . 25w Ed4n Me5s Ed5s Ce2e(or Rf1n) . . 25b ef5s Me4n ef4w hb5e . . . 26w Hg5w Me5w Hf5e Hg5s . . . . 26b ee4n Md5n ee5w xxxx =+ . . . 26w Hg5w Me5w Hf5e Ha3n . . . . 26b ee4n Md5n ee5w dd7n . . . . . 27w Ha4n Ha5n Ha6e Hg5w . . . . . . 27b Md6n ed5n xxxx xxxx =+ . . . 26w Hg5w Me5w hc5n Md5w += . . 25b ef5s Me4n ef4w hb5s . . . 26w Hg5w Me5w Md5w Mc5w += . . 25b ef5s Me4n ef4w . . . 26w Hg5w Me5n . . . . 26b ee4n hf5n ee5e =+ . . . 26w Hg5w Me5w . . . . 26b ee4n Md5n ee5w . . . . . 27w Ha3n Ha4n Ha5n Ha6e += |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 17th, 2008, 8:33pm Here's a proto-tree of the 24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w idea. 24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w . 25w Hg5n Dc4n Rf1n xxxx . . 25b Ha5e Dc5n Dc6x hb5e hc5w . . . 26w Ha3n Ha4e Hb4e Hc4n . . . . 26b ee5w Hc5n Hc6x ed5w hb5n . . . . . 27w ce7n Me6n Me7s df7w hf6x . . . . . . 27b ec5e ed5e Me6w ee5n =+ . . . . . 27w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e . . . . . . 27b ec5e ed5e Me6w ee5n =+ . . . . . 27w Me6s Me5e Mf5s hf6s . . . . . . 27b ec5e ed5e ff5e ee5e =+ . . . . . 27w Me6s Me5e Mf5e Hg6e . . . . . . 27b ec5e ed5e ee5e hf6e -+ . 25w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e . . 25b hf6e Me6e Mf6x ee5n ee6s -+ The evaluation of that last line depends on whether you think HD is better than M. I assumed it was. I promise there are hundreds of gold-favoring lines I'm missing. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by mistre on Feb 17th, 2008, 9:26pm I like Soter's move to threaten the dog. Otherwise we might end up losing our M and R for only a H. A possible sequence: 24b ef4n ha5e hb5e xxxx 25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s (C&G saves his C and threatens our C) 25b ef5w Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ee5e (We take his H) 26w Ee3n md3e me3e mf3x Ee4s (C&G takes our C) 26b hc5n Dc4n hc6w Dc5n Dc6x (We take his D) 27w rb3e rc3x Ha3e Ce2e md4s (C&G takes our R and regroups) So we could trade M-R for H-D. Overall, we would be up H-D to his M. Does anyone see another scenario in which we can do better than this trade? The other options seem to lead to a straight Camel Trade and the loss of our advanced rabbit as well or other complicating positions. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 17th, 2008, 9:34pm on 02/17/08 at 21:26:08, mistre wrote:
Upon analysis, Soter's move looks like it could be good. What about 25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s? It looks like gold could equalize. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by UruramTururam on Feb 18th, 2008, 4:30am Hmm, the situation looks interesting. C&G needs full 4 moves to trap anything... I'd consider: 24b ef4n dd7s xxx xxx Where xxx is moving the horse. So either 24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5s or 24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5e <- but this one seems weaker to me |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by mistre on Feb 18th, 2008, 9:02am on 02/17/08 at 21:34:03, The_Jeh wrote:
If C&G selects that 25w, things look at lot less certain. We could take his H, and then he takes our M, but then we can immediately threaten his M. From there it looks unclear whether or not we can take his M without losing any further material. Or we reply with something like 25b ef5s Hg5w he6s hc5s, whereby we threaten the horse, save our camel, and bolster our trap defense on c3 with our horse. After that, I have no idea how it would play out! I still like Soter's move because it causes C&G to take an extra step to save the dog which he could have applied to better use somewhere else. I still don't know what our 4th step would be for 24b would be - nothing seems apparent. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by mistre on Feb 18th, 2008, 9:05am on 02/18/08 at 04:30:47, UruramTururam wrote:
UruramTururam, What is the purpose of dd7s? I don't see any benefit to this move, but maybe I am missing something???? |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 18th, 2008, 9:19am Hello to mobsters and lurkers alike, Got a bunch of ideas - feel free to comment, correct and take inspiration. Sorry if this is a bit messy. The Jeh, 24b ef4n he6e hf6e ha5e 25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s What's the best course of action? or 24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w 25w Ed4n Ed5n Hg5n Rf1n How should we react to a double-trap attack? 25b ee5e Me6s ha5e hb5e ? Another one: 24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w 25w Ha3n Ha4e Hb4n Hb5n - very freakish, but maybe Gold may hope for something? Quote:
Maybe answer with 25b ef5w ee5e Me4n xxxx ( xxxx = hc5s, for instance, but not sure ). But Jean may counter that with 26w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s or 26w Ce2n Dd2e Ce3n Me5w. The former is more dangerous then the latter IMO, but camel trade stays within reach. I had another 25b ( after your proposed 25w ): 25b ef5s Hg5w ce7s ce6s in my mind for a while but this is crap. Mistre ( you've joined? great! :)) Alternative 26w md3w Ee3w Dc4w Md4w frames our camel and puts our rabbit on "pinning duty". If we continue with 26b ef5w ee5w hd5e xxxx (ed5w/ed5s), Jean will trap our camel by pulling the rabbit and withdraw his camel and dog. Materially we are HR for M - slightly behind at worst, equal at best. Alternative 26b ( after he kills our camel on 26w ): what if we push Jean's dog with our horse ( 2 steps ) and then attack Gold camel with phant ( another 2 steps )? Something like 26b xxxx (Dc4s/Dc4w) hc5s ef5s ef4w ? Quote:
UruramTururam, I too thought about something similar and I agree with your evaluation of hb5e variant ( Gold M and Silver H may get too close ). The problem is, we must check whether The_Jeh's refutation of my move does invalidate your proposals as well - I hope it doesn't but tricky lines are rife and I haven' examined much yet. I also "discovered" 24b ef4n dd7s dd6s ha5e, but the idea of clogging the centre to gain the upper hand seems dubious. Looks like my knowledge of what doesn't work is slowly growing :/. I also briefly examined 24b ef4n he6e hf6e ha5s but this is rather flawed: Gold camel may escape when c4 dog invades the centre - 25w Dc4n Dc5e Me5s Ce2e. Dog is awkwardly positioned after this move though, but OTOH Jean may come up with a better answer, so I don't really know... then A. 25b ef5w Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ee5e ( Gold H dead, phant returns to f5 ) B. 25b ef5n Hg5w ef6w Hf5n hf6x ( Gold H dead, phant goes to e6 ) don't know which of them is better. Maybe both are equally bad - they permit: 26w md3w Ed4s rb3n mc3x Ha3e 26b ee6w ed6w ec6s ec5s ( our R framed and our E pinned on the next move. Not great. ) however 26b ee6w ed6w ec6s ha4s makes framing imposible and leaves Silver with some chances to win material in future. Bottom line: I'm gonna examine The_Jeh's refutation further as I am still very skeptical about my proposed move. The position is much more complex than I thought. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by jdb on Feb 18th, 2008, 9:39am Quote:
24b ha5e hb5e ef4n ce7n 24w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s 25b ef5s Hg6w Hf5n Hf6x ef4n 26w rb3n Dc3w md3w mc3x Ed4s 26b ef5s Me4n ef4w hc5w 27w Ed3n Ed4n Me5e Mf5e 27b ee4e ef4n hb5n he6s |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 18th, 2008, 9:58am Quote:
Interesting line, JDB. What do you think of another possible 27b ee4e ef4n rb4w hb5n? |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 18th, 2008, 10:00am on 02/18/08 at 09:19:25, Soter wrote:
25b ef5w ee5s Md4n ee4w Yes, he can defend by putting a horse beside the trap, but it would allow our camel to escape. on 02/18/08 at 09:19:25, Soter wrote:
It works for me. I think it might be equality. on 02/18/08 at 09:19:25, Soter wrote:
No. 25b hf6e Me6e Mf6x ee5n ee6w =+ |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 18th, 2008, 11:34am Thanks for insight, The_Jeh. I add yet another line: 24b ef4n he6e Me5n ef5w 25w Ed4n Ed5n Hg5n Rf1n 25b ha5n ha6e ee5e Me6s 26w Ed6s Me5s Me4s Ed5s 26b hb6s hb5s Dc4n hb4e Not sure about further progress if Jean's advanced H escapes ( I'll have a look tomorrow ). I still find your move very interesing though. Quote:
Good point. I've found 26w Ee3n Ee4n Md5n Ee5w ( though I think it only delays the inevitable ) and a very irritating 26w Hg5w Hf5w Md5s He5s ( this one is tougher but probably refutable. At least I hope so as DR for M is not the best deal ). |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 18th, 2008, 12:11pm Soter, your very last 26w is illegal. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by UruramTururam on Feb 18th, 2008, 1:15pm on 02/18/08 at 09:05:04, mistre wrote:
General support. Secures the right trap and moves another silver piece closer to the action. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 18th, 2008, 2:02pm Quote:
:o Oops, sorry The_Jeh! I didn't mean to confuse you.My mind played a trick on me and turned your ef5w ee5s Md4n ee4w into ef5w ee5w Md4n ee4w. My concentration level is poor today. As I told you in my previous post I like your proposal. I failed to find a decisive refutation; there may be something I miss of course, but IMO your move is of good quality. Tomorrow I'm gonna torture my ef4n ha5e hb5e xxxx and check whether it sinks or swims. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Fritzlein on Feb 18th, 2008, 3:31pm on 02/18/08 at 04:30:47, UruramTururam wrote:
This move has potential because our western horse is threatening to occupy b3 as well as threatening to capture the c4 dog. For example 24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5s 25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s 25b rb3e hb4s ef5s Hg5w However, we must be prepared for chessandgo to drop his dog into c3, blocking both of our threats. In that case our dog on d6 might end up being a tactical liability, e.g. 24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5s 25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s 25b hb4e ef5s Hg5w he6s 26w he5w Me4n Me5n Rf1n and then we can't push his camel to d6 because our dog is in the way. So maybe an alternative would be 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s with the fourth step of ra8s or rg7s. 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s 25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s 25b hb4e ef5s Hg5w he6s and now I am not sure how to continue for Gold. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 18th, 2008, 3:47pm I'm well aware of how confusing it can be to sort out the analysis of previous posts if you are just entering the discussion, so here is the tree of all analysis up to this point. The node evaluations are my own, so if you think I am misrepresenting a certain line, please say so immediately. 24b he6e hf6e ef4n ha5e . 25w Ed4n Me5s Ed5s Rf1n . . 25b ef5s Me4n ef4w hb5e . . . 26w Hg5w Me5w Hf5e Hg5s . . . . 26b ee4n Md5n ee5w xxxx =+ . . . 26w Hg5w Me5w Hf5e Ha3n . . . . 26b ee4n Md5n ee5w dd7n . . . . . 27w Ha4n Ha5n Ha6e Hg5w . . . . . . 27b Md6n ed5n xxxx xxxx =+ . . . 26w Hg5w Me5w hc5n Md5w += . . 25b ef5s Me4n ef4w hb5s . . . 26w Hg5w Me5w Md5w Mc5w += . . 25b ef5s Me4n ef4w . . . 26w Hg5w Me5n . . . . 26b ee4n hf5n ee5e =+ . . . 26w Hg5w Me5w . . . . 26b ee4n Md5n ee5w . . . . . 27w Ha3n Ha4n Ha5n Ha6e += . 25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s . . 25b ef5w ee5s Md4n ee4w . . . 26w Ee3n Ee4n Md5n Ee5w . . . . 26b hb5n md3w Dc4w mc3n -+ 24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w . 25w Hg5n Dc4n Rf1n xxxx . . 25b Ha5e Dc5n Dc6x hb5e hc5w . . . 26w Ha3n Ha4e Hb4e Hc4n . . . . 26b ee5w Hc5n Hc6x ed5w hb5n . . . . . 27w ce7n Me6n Me7s df7w hf6x . . . . . . 27b ec5e ed5e Me6w ee5n =+ . . . . . 27w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e . . . . . . 27b ec5e ed5e Me6w ee5n =+ . . . . . 27w Me6s Me5e Mf5s hf6s . . . . . . 27b ec5e ed5e ff5e ee5e =+ . . . . . 27w Me6s Me5e Mf5e Hg6e . . . . . . 27b ec5e ed5e ee5e hf6e -+ . 25w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e . . 25b hf6e Me6e Mf6x ee5n ee6s -+ . 25w Ed4n Ed5n Hg5n Rf1n . . 25b ee5e Me6s ha5e hb5e =(?) . . 25b ha5n ha6e ee5e Me6s . . . 26w Ed6s Me5s Me4s Ed5s . . . . 26b hb6s hb5s Dc4n hb4e (?) . 25w Ha3n Ha4e Hb4n Hb5n . . 25b hf6e Me6e Mf6x ee5n ee6w =+ 24b ef4n ha5e hb5e ce7n . 25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s . . 25b ef5w Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ee5e . . . 26w Ee3n md3e me3e mf3x Ee4s . . . . 26b hc5n Dc4n hc6w Dc5n Dc6x . . . . . 27w rb3e rc3x Ha3e Ce2e md4s -+ . 25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s . . 25b ef5s Hg6w Hf5n Hf6x ef4n . . . 26w rb3n Dc3w md2w mc3x Ed4s . . . . 26b ef5s Me4n ef4w hc5w . . . . . 27w Edwn Ed4n Me5e Mf5e . . . . . . 27b ee4e ef4n hb5n he6s +- . . . . . . 27b ee4e ef4n rb4w hb5n +- 24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5s . 25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s . . 25b rb3e hb4s ef5s Hg5w = . 25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s . . 25b hb4e ef5s Hg5w he6s . . . 26w he5w Me4n Me5n Rf1n +- 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s (/ra8s) . 25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s . . 25b hb4e ef5s Hg5w he6s -+ 24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5e |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Fritzlein on Feb 18th, 2008, 6:06pm Thanks for compiling that tree, The_Jeh. I am reposting it with a mini-max sort, i.e. percolating your leaf evaluations up to the top, and listing the branches first that the player would actually prefer. That way, for people analyzing, the critical lines to play out are always on top. If you can refute a critical line, it can change our entire assessment of the position, demote some move, and create a new critical line. The only leaf evaluation I changed was to mark the leaf you didn't label as unclear. According to the listed options and your leaf evaluations, we have one choice that favors us, two that are unclear or equal, and three that favor chessandgo. 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s . 25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s . . 25b hb4e ef5s Hg5w he6s -+ 24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w . 25w Ed4n Ed5n Hg5n Rf1n . . 25b ee5e Me6s ha5e hb5e =(?) . . 25b ha5n ha6e ee5e Me6s . . . 26w Ed6s Me5s Me4s Ed5s . . . . 26b hb6s hb5s Dc4n hb4e (?) . 25w Hg5n Dc4n Rf1n xxxx . . 25b Ha5e Dc5n Dc6x hb5e hc5w . . . 26w Ha3n Ha4e Hb4e Hc4n . . . . 26b ee5w Hc5n Hc6x ed5w hb5n . . . . . 27w ce7n Me6n Me7s df7w hf6x . . . . . . 27b ec5e ed5e Me6w ee5n =+ . . . . . 27w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e . . . . . . 27b ec5e ed5e Me6w ee5n =+ . . . . . 27w Me6s Me5e Mf5s hf6s . . . . . . 27b ec5e ed5e ff5e ee5e =+ . . . . . 27w Me6s Me5e Mf5e Hg6e . . . . . . 27b ec5e ed5e ee5e hf6e -+ . 25w Ha3n Ha4e Hb4n Hb5n . . 25b hf6e Me6e Mf6x ee5n ee6w =+ . 25w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e . . 25b hf6e Me6e Mf6x ee5n ee6s -+ 24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5e (?) 24b he6e hf6e ef4n ha5e . 25w Ed4n Me5s Ed5s Rf1n . . 25b ef5s Me4n ef4w hb5e . . . 26w Hg5w Me5w hc5n Md5w += . . . 26w Hg5w Me5w Hf5e Hg5s . . . . 26b ee4n Md5n ee5w xxxx =+ . . . 26w Hg5w Me5w Hf5e Ha3n . . . . 26b ee4n Md5n ee5w dd7n . . . . . 27w Ha4n Ha5n Ha6e Hg5w . . . . . . 27b Md6n ed5n xxxx xxxx =+ . . 25b ef5s Me4n ef4w hb5s . . . 26w Hg5w Me5w Md5w Mc5w += . . 25b ef5s Me4n ef4w . . . 26w Hg5w Me5w . . . . 26b ee4n Md5n ee5w . . . . . 27w Ha3n Ha4n Ha5n Ha6e += . . . 26w Hg5w Me5n . . . . 26b ee4n hf5n ee5e =+ . 25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s . . 25b ef5w ee5s Md4n ee4w . . . 26w Ee3n Ee4n Md5n Ee5w . . . . 26b hb5n md3w Dc4w mc3n -+ 24b ef4n ha5e hb5e ce7n . 25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s . . 25b ef5s Hg6w Hf5n Hf6x ef4n . . . 26w rb3n Dc3w md2w mc3x Ed4s . . . . 26b ef5s Me4n ef4w hc5w . . . . . 27w Edwn Ed4n Me5e Mf5e . . . . . . 27b ee4e ef4n hb5n he6s +- . . . . . . 27b ee4e ef4n rb4w hb5n +- . 25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s . . 25b ef5w Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ee5e . . . 26w Ee3n md3e me3e mf3x Ee4s . . . . 26b hc5n Dc4n hc6w Dc5n Dc6x . . . . . 27w rb3e rc3x Ha3e Ce2e md4s -+ 24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5s . 25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s . . 25b hb4e ef5s Hg5w he6s . . . 26w he5w Me4n Me5n Rf1n +- . 25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s . . 25b rb3e hb4s ef5s Hg5w = |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by arimaa_master on Feb 19th, 2008, 4:23am on 02/18/08 at 18:06:47, Fritzlein wrote:
It seems that C&G is in serious trouble now :) (I was looking for another 25w but all lines I examined so far seem to be even worse (or better for us :)). |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by mistre on Feb 19th, 2008, 8:27am on 02/19/08 at 04:23:13, arimaa_master wrote:
I like those sequence of moves, I alluded to that 25b in my previous post. Just be aware that we have no imminent capture after C&G probably plays: 26w Ce2e he5w Me4n hf5e |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 19th, 2008, 9:12am on 02/19/08 at 08:27:38, mistre wrote:
We've got to be careful that we don't lose MH for M, or H for nothing if chessandgo frames the horse. If his g horse escapes, that could be the unfortunate result. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by jdb on Feb 19th, 2008, 9:37am How about: 24b ef4w he6e hf6e ha5e |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 19th, 2008, 9:51am I found two thingies: 1. 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s 25w Dc4s Ed4w md3n Dc3e looks like the final result is equality (MHR / MHR ). 2. 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s 25w Ed4e Me5w Md5w Mc5w 25b Dc4n hb4e Dc5n Dc6x hc4n 26w Ee4w Mb5s Mb4n rb3n Isn't it a bit shaky for us? Or maybe we should capture his horse first? Quote:
Mistre: ef4n Me5n ee4n xxxx was my initial thought but I'll search for something better. P.S. What's your opinion about replacing rg7s with rb8s/ ra8s/ rh7s in 24b mentioned above? In some lines our E abandons Jean's H and fights in a different theater; after rg7s we have a frozen and vulnerable rabbit. OTOH another trap guardian won't do us harm, so it's hard to say. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 19th, 2008, 10:01am Quote:
Wow, JDB, you're thinking outside the box. Very interesting idea. After looking at it for a while I only found 25w Ed4n Me5n Me6w Ed5w as a semi-plausible answer, but this 25w is not strong. P.S. ef4n he6e hf6e ha5e, right? P.P.S. What about 25w Ed4n Me5e Hg5e Mf5e? |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by jdb on Feb 19th, 2008, 11:30am on 02/19/08 at 10:01:25, Soter wrote:
Elephant west instead of north. I corrected ha5e in the original post. Moving the elephant west makes it harder for gold to retreat his camel. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by mistre on Feb 19th, 2008, 12:31pm After doing some more analysis, I still prefer 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s (or maybe rb8s instead). Soter, in both of your findings, I think we come out better in the end. JDB, your move is definitely outside the box, and I think is has some merit. First glance, I am not sure that it is as strong because it does not put his dog into immediate danger, but more analysis is needed. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 19th, 2008, 1:26pm Quote:
24b ef4w he6e hf6e ha5e - OK. I'll do more examination of this move soon. Sorry for my clumsy spelling - too much beer recently ;). Quote:
Gotta admit I'm in two minds regarding my proposed 24b. It poses a grave threat to chessandgo's dog, that's true, but I'm afraid we miss some critical lines which allow c&g to rescue D and put our H in dire straits. Maybe others will suggest something. I'll try to analyse more and finally make my mind tomorrow. For now, I have yet another suggestion ( fresh and untested ): 24b ef4w ha5e hb5e xxxx ( xxxx = he6e? rg7s? rb8s? something else? ) - a crossbreed between JDB's move and mine. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 19th, 2008, 5:10pm on 02/19/08 at 13:26:14, Soter wrote:
Unfortunatley, I'm going to disprove of this move, and similar moves, on the grounds that it allows c&g to push our horse onto the c6 trap with his camel, thereby granting him enough time to capture our camel without losing equal material. 25w Hg5w Me5w hc5n Md5w leaves us wanting, I think. If chessandgo can push a piece onto c6 with his camel and maintain the freeze on our camel at the same time, I think he has accumulated a major advantage. I have not refuted jdb's move, because it does not put the horse on c5. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 19th, 2008, 5:26pm on 02/19/08 at 12:31:23, mistre wrote:
I prefer rg7s. It makes it harder for f6 to be defended by gold, and it puts a rabbit nearer the thin southeastern area. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 19th, 2008, 5:46pm Quote:
Agreed, The_Jeh. I stand corrected. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Fritzlein on Feb 20th, 2008, 9:48am on 02/19/08 at 09:37:37, jdb wrote:
This move looks very promising, brilliant even, and I changed it to my favorite because I couldn't refute it. Since it was my new critical line, I let Bomb think about it overnight just for kicks. After nine hours Bomb had almost completed a depth of 16 steps (four ply), and its preferred move shocked me: Hg5w Me5w Hf5w Md5w. It seems that the gold camel can get away after all if the gold horse sacrifices itself. For example: 24b ef4w he6e hf6e ha5e 25w Hg5w Me5w Hf5w Md5w 25b He5n ee4n He6e Hf6x ee5n 26w Dc4w Mc5s md3w Ed4s I have to tip my hat to Bomb for this line. This is the first time in the game Bomb has shown me something useful. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 20th, 2008, 11:08am Quote:
Holy cow. This game amazes me. Fritz, do we have anything in our arsenal to be used here? M for HR means equality ( at best ) and MR for HR is simply unacceptable! |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 20th, 2008, 12:08pm So, let's review where we stand. If this is the only unrefuted move: 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s -+ and these are unclear 24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w ? 24b ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5e ? then I think we should exhaustively examine 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s and keep dabbling with the other two in case the first one is disproven. It would be nice to move before getting into the reserve. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Fritzlein on Feb 20th, 2008, 12:13pm I've been beating on 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s a little, since it is the only line at present that looks to be in our favor according to The_Jeh's leaf evaluations. (Sorry I haven't double-checked any other lines yet.) If this critical move can be refuted we need to know at soon as possible because we'll have to scramble to see which other move works best. One side line which shows the importance of our fourth step as rg7s is the following 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s 25w Ed4e Me5w Md5s Ee4s 25b rb3e hb4s ef5s Hg5w 26w Dc4n Md4w Ee3n md3e 26b Hf5n Hf6x ef4n ef5s rc3e 27w Mc4w Dc5s rd3n Dd2n and now the only move I can find to save us from losing both our horse and our camel is 27b rg6s rg5s rg4s ef4s ! This goes to show how the position hangs by a thread. We come out fine in that line, but there are many variations to consider, and I would be more comfortable if we considered a few more of them. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Fritzlein on Feb 20th, 2008, 12:18pm on 02/20/08 at 11:08:43, Soter wrote:
I couldn't find a good line for us after Bomb's move. Obviously, I could be missing something since I missed Bomb's move in the first place, but as it stands I think of jdb's move as having been refuted. It seems to leave us down M for HR, with another rabbit threated: basically I evaluate it as minus a rabbit for us. I would rather play an unclear line we haven't examined much than play a line with a known crushing response. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Fritzlein on Feb 20th, 2008, 1:19pm I belatedly recalled The_Jeh's tactical trick from the previous move's analysis. After 24b ef4n ha5s ha4e rg7s 25w Dc4s Ed4n Me5s Ed5s Our camel is not threatened with immediate capture in f3, so we can spare an extra step to prevent Gold from escaping: 25b ef5s Hg5w he6s rg6s because we come out ahead anyway if he takes the rabbit instead 26w md3e Ed4s Dc3n rb3e rc3x 26b ef4e Me4e Mf4s Mf3x eg4w 27w Ed3w me3w Ec3w md3w mc3x 27b Hf5n Hf6x ef4n he5w hd5w |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Fritzlein on Feb 20th, 2008, 1:27pm on 02/20/08 at 12:08:10, The_Jeh wrote:
I think it is a bit too optimistic to rate this move a large plus. If chessandgo wants he can always liquidate by trading MH for MH, which leaves us with only the slight advantage of our extra rabbit which is threatened. If he goes down this path we are forced to accept this trade. At the end we can save the rabbit, so we are surely winning, but I don't count it as quite a full rabbit advantage. 24b ef4n ha5s ha4e rg7s 25w Ha3n rb3w md3w mc3x Ed4s 25b ef5s Me5e Mf5n Mf6x ef4n 26w Ed3n Dc4s Dc3e Ed4w 26b ef5s Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ef4n 27w Ec4e hb4e hc4s hc3x Ed4w 27b ef5w ee5s ee4s df7s =+ |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 20th, 2008, 1:48pm 24b ef4w he6e hf6s ha5e separates Gold M from Gold H making Gold E the only possible lifeguard for M. But this comes at the cost of exposing our H so I'm very skeptical. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 20th, 2008, 2:13pm on 02/20/08 at 13:27:07, Fritzlein wrote:
I'm sorry, Fritzlein. It seems I've been confusing the symbols. When I wrote -+, I meant a small silver advantage, not a large one, and for =+ I meant a large silver advantage. I know the correct way makes more sense, sorry. At least the signs on my tree are okay (I think). Actually, I would prefer to use the notation =+ for a small advantage and =++ for a large advantage. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 20th, 2008, 2:45pm Quote:
We haven't examined 24b ef4n he6w hd6s ha5e. Kinda weird if you ask me but maybe has some merit. I'm running out of ideas, so from now on I'm gonna examine others' lines. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Fritzlein on Feb 20th, 2008, 2:52pm No problem about confusing the symbols. I didn't exactly explain them, and in any case they are left over from an earlier era of chess. Nowadays folks have been conditioned by chess computers, so they would probably prefer +1.73 for a large gold advantage and -0.34 for a small silver advantage, etc. Maybe we should switch to numbers. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by arimaa_master on Feb 21st, 2008, 5:17am on 02/20/08 at 13:27:07, Fritzlein wrote:
You are right - now I believe that this is the best what can be played from C&G side. So lets explore other two unclear possibilities if we could do even better. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 21st, 2008, 6:23am 24b ef4n ha5e hb5e rg7s 25w Ce2n Dd2e Ce3n Me5w 25b ef5w Md5n ee5w xxxx ( maybe he6s improves this one ?) 26w Ha3n Ha4n Ha5n Ha6e and both camels are frozen, but Jean may capture ours on the next move, and we can't capture his ( or at least the capturing sequence is very convoluted ). Additionally, we can't capture his dog. I wonder whether 26b he6e hf6s hf5s xxxx could help ( absolutely mad line leading to some huge bloody exchanges ). Quote:
Fritzlein, what about deviating after your proposed 26w: 26b rc3e Ce2s me3s me2e or better: 26b rc3e me3e mf3e mg3n? Alternatively, what about deviating earlier, after 25w: 25b ef5w ee5s Md4n ee4w or maybe even: 25b Dc4n hb4e ef5w ee5s? I'm not sure if these have been already refuted - a lot has been written in this thread. P.S. Has anyone found a plausible 25w where something comes to f4 after our E rushes to f5? I ask because it would deprive our phant of free space necessary to pefrorm capturing maneuvres (provided that we go with rg7s ). P.P.S. I'll try to look into The_Jeh's "two unclear moves" ASAP. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 21st, 2008, 1:15pm Quote:
Ok, I dabbled with pieces for a while. 24b ef4n ha5e hb5e dd7s makes c6 zone too crowdy so it's not my favorite. I didn't follow 24b he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w very far, but I can't see any way to squeeze more than equality ( = camel trade and loss of our advanced rabbit ). I looked at 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s for a moment and found an unusual 25w Ed4e md3n Ee4e md4e ( it may be used in other lines as well i think) which threatens Silver camel, makes Gold camel and horse uncapturable by half-blocking our phant (!) while leaving Gold dog at our mercy. Finally, I wasn't able to find a powerful answer for Gold after 24b ef4n he6w hd6s ha5e ( new one ) which uses our e6 horse to block the Gold camel, slightly decrease Gold phant's mobility and indirectly threaten Gold dog. I'm no champion of deep move analysis though, and don't have much time now so plz somebody check the last two mentioned things, ok? P.S. If, as The_Jeh suggests, reserve should be left untouched, then voting time's coming ( it usually last 36 hours ). |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 21st, 2008, 2:17pm on 02/21/08 at 13:15:10, Soter wrote:
I think 25b he6w hd6s Me5n ef5w still leaves us with an advantage. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by arimaa_master on Feb 22nd, 2008, 9:36am on 02/21/08 at 13:15:10, Soter wrote:
your proposed 24b ef4n he6w hd6s ha5e seems to be very good. I didn´t find a way how chessandgo could force a MH trade or to simplify or come near to equalization. So for now it seems to me like a new favorite. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 22nd, 2008, 9:49am on 02/22/08 at 09:36:44, arimaa_master wrote:
24b ef4n he6w hd6s ha5e 25w hd5w Ed4n Me5s Ed5s 25b ef5s Me4n ef4w xxxx and chessandgo threatens to push the horse onto b6, a trick I mentioned before. If 25b ef5s Me4n ef4w hc5e, then 26w Hg5w Me5n Me6e Mf6e. And I can't find any other 25b's that I like. Please double-check this. I don't mean to stir up trouble, but I want to avoid what happened last time. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by mistre on Feb 22nd, 2008, 9:52am on 02/22/08 at 09:36:44, arimaa_master wrote:
In this scenario, I think C&G would just go ahead and take the camel on 25w. The end result looks to be an even camel trade, although we might be able to save our advanced rabbit. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 22nd, 2008, 11:11am Quote:
But you're not stirring up trouble! There's no reason to hide your doubts, The_Jeh. The question is: do we like HDR for MR? - since this is where this move leads us I think ( HDR for M looks impossible or at least very remote )? Quote:
I thought about killing Gold D by double-drag on 25b. Then the only way for chessandgo to save his frozen H without abandoning our M is 26w Rg1n Rg2n Rg3n Hg5e ( after that it's unclear to me ). If he kills our M on 26w, we capture his H ( and unfortunately he kills our R ). I got mixed feelings about the resulting position.OTOH, if on 25w our H is not pushed west ( to c5 ) but north, then Gold D is not in danger and we are weakened ( We may react 25b hb5e hc5w Dc4n hd6s, but too dangerous to our horses ). So 25w hd5n Ed4n Me5s Ed5s seems to refute my last proposal - and even if I'm wrong, this move seems to contain too many surprises. IMO we have neither time nor necessity - we already have ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s - to explore them all. Please tell if you see something in it that I missed ( highly probable ) . I'm waiting for Fritzlein's comments and then I'll be ready to vote. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Fritzlein on Feb 22nd, 2008, 11:11pm on 02/22/08 at 11:11:59, Soter wrote:
Oh, darn, I was just waiting for your comments so that I would know how to vote. :P |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 22nd, 2008, 11:35pm I'm ready to vote. 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s is good enough, in my opinion. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by 99of9 on Feb 22nd, 2008, 11:52pm My internet has slowed down so that I haven't been able to open the board. Can someone post the board config in text? |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 23rd, 2008, 12:18am 1 R R R . . R R . 2 . . . C D C R R 3 . . x . m x r H 4 . . e . E D . . 5 . H . M . . . h 6 . . x h . x . . 7 r r d c d c . . 8 . r r . . r r r h g f e d c b a |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by 99of9 on Feb 23rd, 2008, 12:41am Thanks Jeh. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 23rd, 2008, 4:26am Quote:
Jeez, Fritzlein, if a 2400+ player, a former and future (very likely) World Champion is waiting for directions from an overrated 1900+ fellow who opened the planning window eight or nine times, then the world's surely coming to an end ::) :). I try to do my best for the mob but sometimes the more I analyse the less I'm certain of. Quote:
Gets my #1 too, I think. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by arimaa_master on Feb 24th, 2008, 2:35pm on 02/22/08 at 11:11:59, Soter wrote:
Ok, I agree - no need to take risk of unexpected. I am again (and definitely :)) for 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 24th, 2008, 3:56pm Quote:
As I said - I probably saw only a fraction of possibilities when analysing my proposal. I assumed people would post if they found it gives us better options than 24b ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s no matter what ( I can't contribute now due to tightening schedule :(). When do we vote? |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by The_Jeh on Feb 24th, 2008, 4:30pm Ron said voting would start Monday. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by RonWeasley on Feb 25th, 2008, 11:18am Correction: On two of the move candidates I put the result of ef4n as e->e4 instead of e->f5. I hope this doesn't cause confusion. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Soter on Feb 25th, 2008, 11:25am Quote:
No problem. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by RonWeasley on Feb 26th, 2008, 11:04am TheMob chooses ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s. At this point, you'd think gold will make one of the moves we've anticipated. |
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Title: Re: Move 24 Post by Fritzlein on Feb 26th, 2008, 7:31pm For the record . . . . . . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 1. ef4n ha5e hb5s rg7s (e->f5, r->g6, h->b4) - 6 6 7 7 7 7 8 8 2. ef4n dd7s ha5e hb5s (e->f5, d->d6, h->b4) 2 - 2 3 2 3 3 3 4 3. ef4n ha5e hb5e rg7s (e->e4, r->g6, h->c5) 1 2 - 3 2 4 3 4 4 4. he6e hf6e ef4n ha5e (h->g6, e->f5, h->b5) 1 1 1 - 2 3 2 4 3 5. ef4n he6w hd6s ha5e (e->e4, h->d5, h->b5) 0 2 0 2 - 3 2 3 3 6. he6e ef4n Me5n ef5w (h->f6, push M) . . 1 2 1 2 2 - 3 4 4 7. ha5e hb5e ef4n ce7n (e->f5, c->e8, h->c5) 1 0 1 2 2 2 - 3 3 8. ef4w he6e hf6e ha5e (e->e4, h->g6, h->b5) 0 2 1 1 2 1 2 - 3 9. ef4w he6e hf6s ha5e (e->e4, h->f5, h->b5) 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 2 - |
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