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        Team Games >> 2007 One vs TheMob >> Move 26
        
(Message started by: RonWeasley on Feb 27th, 2008, 8:19am)
Title: Move 26
Post by RonWeasley on Feb 27th, 2008, 8:19am
TheMob is anticipating gold to move E->b3 attacking our horse.  There's no way to save it.  In response silver should take the horse on g5.  I'm soliciting voice votes to play 26b ef5s Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ef4n as soon as silver moves.  The alternative is to leave our e on e6 instead of f5, but I prefer f5.  There's not a big difference since on 27b I think we want e->d4 threatening the dog with designs on some kind of horse hostage.
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by Janzert on Feb 27th, 2008, 9:09am
If I understand what you're are saying correctly, the only moves allowing us to capture the horse on the next turn leaves our e on f5 (our horse is blocking an ending position of e6). But yes, as long as c&g makes the expected move to the horse I agree with an immediate horse capture.

Janzert
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by The_Jeh on Feb 27th, 2008, 10:14am
Given chessandgo's move, 26w Ed3n Dc4s Dc3w Ed4w, I definitely support taking the horse immediately.
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by jdb on Feb 27th, 2008, 10:18am
If we don't take the horse is
26b e->d3 playable?
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by Soter on Feb 27th, 2008, 10:20am
Jean's response: 26w Ed3n Dc4s Dc3w Ed4w

And yes, I want to see the gold horse dead too.
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by Soter on Feb 27th, 2008, 10:26am

Quote:
If we don't take the horse is
26b e->d3 playable?


I'm in a hurry, so I can't analyse it now. Hard to say. I think we could see our horse half-framed ( or maybe abandoned g5 horse could start flipping rabbits?). I don't know at the moment, really.
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by RonWeasley on Feb 27th, 2008, 10:52am
Yes, Janzert, we have a horse on e6.  That makes the choice easier.

If we go e->d3, I think we allow silver to do all kinds of stuff while we defend our b4 horse.  At minimum we lose tempo.  So I'd like to take the g5 horse.  WHO'S WITH ME?!
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by mistre on Feb 27th, 2008, 11:09am

on 02/27/08 at 10:18:07, jdb wrote:
If we don't take the horse is
26b e->d3 playable?


I looked at a few lines and I think this move would do more harm than help. If C&G plays Hg5s rg6s Hg4s rg5s, it could be disastrous for us.

I think taking the horse is the only plausible move.
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 27th, 2008, 12:30pm
I am not ready to vote for the horse capture yet.  I assume chessandgo would capture our horse by pulling through and ending with his elephant on d3.  Then we can only save our rabbit with our elephant on c4, after which he frames our rabbit.  That rabbit would then be fairly close to dead since we are defending it from the wrong side, i.e. from c4 rather than from d3.

I want to look at the alternative of declining the horse trade.  Our advanced rabbit might not be as weak with our horse still there defending, and with our elephant on the correct square of d3.

A third alternative is to accept the horse trade, but only because we don't plan to save our rabbit, and instead plan to attack the weakened f3 trap.

I think we need some time to decide between horse capture and e->d3, although I admit I haven't looked at either line yet.
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 27th, 2008, 12:40pm

on 02/27/08 at 11:09:24, mistre wrote:
I looked at a few lines and I think this move would do more harm than help. If C&G plays Hg5s rg6s Hg4s rg5s, it could be disastrous for us.

And if we respond with h->g5, r->h4?  Or how about h->f4, e-e3?  I haven't played out any lines, but I notice that chessandgo's control of f3 is very shaky, and if he pulls a rabbit our elephant may be able to switch sides with a threat to take his horse and/or threaten goal.

Post some lines: I may be easy to convince when I see what trouble we get in.
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by UruramTururam on Feb 27th, 2008, 12:47pm

on 02/27/08 at 12:40:25, Fritzlein wrote:
And if we respond with h->g5, r->h4?  Or how about h->f4, e-e3?


Yes. Let us not be hasty now. We have only two possibilities to examine (taking the horse and moving e->d3) so considering both of them should not take too long.
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by Soter on Feb 27th, 2008, 3:32pm
I had another ( short ) look and now I'm in two minds. On one hand, after e->d3 I'm afraid that Jean's response will contain steps like Ha4n Ha5n . It would threaten our cat; moreover our E can't easily grab that advanced horse. On the other hand, if we capture Gold horse,  rush to c3 to help our rabbit and rabbit frame emerges, then I am rather skeptical about 1) our potential to unframe and 2) our potential to abandon the frame and push one of Gold pieces closer to our trap at the same time ( VERY sharp move ).


Quote:
I looked at a few lines and I think this move would do more harm than help. If C&G plays Hg5s rg6s Hg4s rg5s, it could be disastrous for us.

Fritzlein's answer to this move look OK to me, but what if Jean flips the rabbit instead of double-pulling?

Quote:
A third alternative is to accept the horse trade, but only because we don't plan
to save our rabbit, and instead plan to attack the weakened f3 trap.

This may be a very promising idea, although ( at least to me ) not trivial to implement.
I'll have a closer look tomorrow .

P.S. What would we do after Jean's Ec4n Ha4n Ha5n Ha6e?
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by The_Jeh on Feb 27th, 2008, 4:03pm
26b ef5s ef4w ee4e ed4s

27w Ec4e hb4e Ha4e Hg5e

Now we've got two options:
1. Allow the horse to be framed
2. Spend four steps to prevent the frame (The only way to do this puts our elephant on b2, a bad location.)

If we opt for #2, then I foresee the devastating

28w Ce2w Rf1w Re1n Ed4s

So unless you can refute my refutation, I would much rather capture the horse now.
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 27th, 2008, 7:35pm
OK, if e->d3, then both the rabbit flip and the horse frame look hard to meet.  I'm ready to vote for capturing the horse, and if nobody else objects, we might as well save some reserve and move without a formal vote.

See, I told you I would be easy to convince.   :D

However, I still think that if he captures our horse while leaving his elephant on d3, it is futile for us to try to save our rabbit with e->c4 the next move.  After the horse trade our extra rabbit will be worth only the time it takes to capture it.  Instead of a tangible (material) lead we will only have an intangible (time) lead.  Perhaps

26b ef5s Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ef4n
.    27w Ec4s hb4e Ec3e hc4s hc3x
.    .    27b ef5w ee5s ee4s df7s
.    .    .    28w Rf1n Rg1n Rg2n Ce2s
.    .    .    .    28b df6s df5s df4s rg6s
.    .    .    28w Ce2e Dd2e Rg1n Rg2n
.    .    .    .    28b ee3n De2n ee4w De3n
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by 99of9 on Feb 27th, 2008, 7:54pm
Can you give me 12 hours before implementing any decision, I'd like to take a look at this one.
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by UruramTururam on Feb 28th, 2008, 1:56am

on 02/27/08 at 19:35:14, Fritzlein wrote:
However, I still think that if he captures our horse while leaving his elephant on d3, it is futile for us to try to save our rabbit with e->c4 the next move.  After the horse trade our extra rabbit will be worth only the time it takes to capture it.


So take the horse and then left-wing counter-attack, to let C&G think whether to take our R (4 moves...) or perhaps to defend elsewhere? It sounds OK for me. Let's trap this horse.
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by 99of9 on Feb 28th, 2008, 2:18am
OK, I've looked and come to the same conclusion as everyone else.  Go ahead and kill the horse.

[EDIT: ps. I don't think he will drag through the trap, I think his elephant will stay on c4]
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by Soter on Feb 28th, 2008, 5:49am
I too looked at it once again. Horse capture is better after all.
Title: Re: Move 26
Post by RonWeasley on Feb 28th, 2008, 7:06am
Aren't we the cautious mob.  I see enough support to kill the horse now.  DOGFOOD!


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