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        Team Games >> 2007 One vs TheMob >> Move 27
        
(Message started by: Janzert on Feb 28^th, 2008, 10:12am)

Title: Move 27
Post by Janzert on Feb 28^th, 2008, 10:12am

Chessandgo responds with the expected h capture and 99 was right he left the E on c4.

27w Ec4e hb4e hc4s hc3x Ed4w

Edit: the proposed response on move 24 was
27b ef5w ee5s ee4s df7s

Janzert

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by UruramTururam on Feb 28^th, 2008, 12:52pm

on 02/28/08 at 10:12:38, Janzert wrote:

Edit: the proposed response on move 24 was
27b ef5w ee5s ee4s df7s

I don't see anything better...
Our R s safe for one turn.

Btw - what does Bomb propose now?

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by The_Jeh on Feb 28^th, 2008, 12:56pm

I think this move looks good. Chessandgo might have to save the rabbit capture for quite a while later, because it looks like we can keep making new threats for quite some time. Also, if he shores up f3 with a couple rabbit advances, it makes an eastern rabbit charge by us more deadly later in the game.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by 99of9 on Feb 28^th, 2008, 2:48pm

Just a general strategic note. Now that we have traded Ms and one H, every piece has shifted in value up one. Horses are now like camels, so we should keep an eye on taking his horse hostage. Dogs are now like horses, so we should place them where we usually place an H and consider ED attacks (even more so since the board is less dense).

One other specific option for this move is to run our elephant over to near his horse to try to take it hostage.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by mdk on Feb 28^th, 2008, 2:55pm

So what happens if after 27b ef5w ee5s ee4s df7s chessandgo advances his E. For example 28w Ce2s Ec4e Ed4n Ed5n. It seems to be a highly tactical line which may very well benefit us but we must be careful to check over before entering.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 28^th, 2008, 6:39pm

I agree with 99of9's general remarks about the effect of removing MH from each side. I would only add my expectation that giving up a horse hostage now is less devastating than giving up a camel hostage is in the opening. The balance between defense and offense has tipped appreciably towards offense. We can expect chessandgo to be more cavalier with his horse now than he was with his camel before, and likewise we shouldn't be overly concerned with keeping our horse safe.

With chessandgo leaving his elephant on c4 instead of d3, our rabbit might not be a dead duck. If it works out tactically, a strategic plan can be saving our rabbit and beginning a general swarm in the west that includes our horse striving for the b3 square. I think if we don't mind swarming our little pieces anyway, we needn't worry that chessandgo will gain control of c6. If we are each trying to attack through each other in the west (i.e. we attack c3 while he attacks c6) our advanced rabbit looks like a head start rather than a liability.

Of course, this is all very vague, and may not stand up to tactical analysis. My instinct is now that the action will be in the west rather than the east, so I would substitute a different fourth step in my proposed move, namely 27b ef5w ee5s ee4s he6w. But if this doesn't hold up to scrutiny, it may not be feasible for us to save our rabbit anyway, in which case we will have to consider whether it is better to give up our rabbit and race, or better to give up our rabbit and defend.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 28^th, 2008, 6:56pm

27b ef5w ee5s ee4s he6w
. 28w Ce2e Rg1n Rg2n Ec4n
. . 28b hd6w hc6w ee3w ra8s (=+)
. 28w Ec4e Ed4n hd6e Ed5n
. . 28b ee3w Ce2n Ce3e Cf3x ed3e
. . . 29w dd7n Ed6n cc7s cc6x Ed7w
. . . . 29b rg6s rg5s rg4s he6s (-+)

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by 99of9 on Feb 29^th, 2008, 6:20am

If we try to rescue the rabbit, we have to be careful not to get stuck on d3 with his elephant screening us out on d4 while he sends his HD up to take the c6 trap.

I agree with this move:
27b ef5w ee5s ee4s df7s

but I also wonder whether the following would work:
27b ef5w ee5w ed5w ec5w
with a view to taking his H hostage or constantly harassing it so that it and the E are occupied, leaving us a brutal attack on the other wing.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by 99of9 on Feb 29^th, 2008, 6:22am

on 02/28/08 at 18:56:36, Fritzlein wrote:

27b ef5w ee5s ee4s he6w

Why use the last step on the horse? Surely we are trying to launch an ED attack asap?

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 29^th, 2008, 9:34am

on 02/29/08 at 06:22:50, 99of9 wrote:

Why use the last step on the horse? Surely we are trying to launch an ED attack asap?

I use the last step on the horse in part because I am worried about mdk's move 28w Ce2s Ec4e Ed4n Ed5n, with the intention of advancing the gold dog to b6 next. It don't see how we can retain control of c6 without bringing our elephant back. I don't want to send our elephant out and bring it back because we lose so much time we lose our advanced rabbit. I don't want to race his ED attack with our ED attack if he is going to be able to pick off a piece before we capture anything, assuming that he can later cross with his elephant in time to stop goal.

That's my reasoning, but of course it may be faulty. It might be that our ED attack is fast enough that we get an advantage from racing, so we don't need to bring our elephant home. Definitely I'm making assumptions that need to be checked.

Let's just be clear that the eastern ED attack is not our only strategic option, and not necessarily our best one. It might be that a western swarm that holds on to our extra rabbit is better, and if we are angling for a western swarm that holds on to our extra rabbit, the horse step is not just effective defense against counter-attack, it is actually part of our attack.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 29^th, 2008, 9:40am

on 02/29/08 at 06:20:45, 99of9 wrote:

but I also wonder whether the following would work:
27b ef5w ee5w ed5w ec5w
with a view to taking his H hostage or constantly harassing it so that it and the E are occupied, leaving us a brutal attack on the other wing.

Do we have anything after 28w Ha4e Db3e Hb4s xxxx? Also 28w Db3n ra3e Ha4s Db4w might present us with an option of getting a dog hostage that we don't really want so much.

In terms of evaluation leaves on our tree, I guess that we are happier to get a horse hostage and give up our advanced rabbit than we are to keep our advanced rabbit and not get the horse hostage. However, before we play for the hostage we should check that we actually get it and don't waste steps in a failed attempt.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by The_Jeh on Feb 29^th, 2008, 10:16am

I've done a bit of checking on the ED attack. Here's a wild line, unlikely to happen, but tell me what you think:

27b ef5s ef4w ee4s df7s
28w Ce2s Ec4n Ec5e Ed5n

28b df6s df5s df4s df3s

Now chessandgo might take his elephant back towards f3, but let's say he takes the cat:

29w dd7n Ed6n cc7s cc6x Ed7w
29b df2w Rf1n Rf2n Rf3x de2e

Chessandgo can now take either of the unprotected rabbits, but I think that would be disastrous. Instead, let's say he moves the elephant back towards f3:

30w Ec7e Ed7s Ed6s Ed5e
30b rg6s rg5s rg4s rg3s

Our horse is now unprotected, but if he captures it,

31w he6e hf6x Ee5n Ce1e Dd2e
31b De2w ee3s Cf1w df2s {goal in one}

I have not examined other 31w's thoroughly, some of them seem to prevent goal, but maybe leave us with an advantage. The point is not that this line works (it probably doesn't), but that we should even be on the lookout for a deep forced goal should chessandgo go after c6.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by The_Jeh on Feb 29^th, 2008, 10:28am

Here's another similar line:

27b ef5s ef4w ee4s df7s
28w Ec4n Ec5e Ed5n Ce2s
28b df6s df5s df4s df3s
29w dd7n Ed6n cc7s cc6x Ed7w (chessandgo might do something completely different here)
29b rg6s rg5s rg4s rg3s

This threatens

30b df2w Rf1n Ce1w de2s, which is goal in two

And I think, depending on what 30w he chooses, we can keep dumping his pieces into f3 with serious threats of goal.

Other options for 29b also contain tricks

The tactics are tricky, but there is an ever-so-slight chance that we can force goal after this 29w. Again, the point is not that these lines work, but to keep a serious eye on our goal potential, or at least the potential for goal threats to gain us an advantage.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by RonWeasley on Feb 29^th, 2008, 12:13pm

30w E->e5 defends and gold remains ahead by a cat. But I see the point that if the E gets blocked from e5, we have a goal-den opportunity. (Sorry) In the same spirit, the gold horse out in front remains a liability for gold as long as our e can get to b4 in one turn.

On the other hand, letting the gold E move to d6 on 28w, without being able to take the gold cat immediately, forces us to defend c6 with our e to prevent D->b6. All cat sacrifices and goal races I've tried without covering d6 on 27b favor gold. This means I'm supporting putting the horse or dog on d6, since I like e->e3 with our other three steps. Note that e3 is four steps from b4. I think I like the dog because it leaves our horse closer to an attack on f3, supporting the e-d.

So, 27b ef5s ef4w ee4s dd7s

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by mistre on Feb 29^th, 2008, 12:48pm

on 02/29/08 at 12:13:36, RonWeasley wrote:

So, 27b ef5s ef4w ee4s dd7s

Both this move and ef5w ee5s ee4s he6w may actually lead to the same result if Chessandgo makes the predicted move of E to D6. The only difference would arise if he pushes the Dog or Horse into the C6 trap. In this case, I would much rather have the horse there then the dog, so if this is the only difference between the moves, I would go with:

ef5w ee5s ee4s he6w

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by mistre on Feb 29^th, 2008, 12:59pm

Actually, I think Chessandgo's best 28w after our proposed 27b might be:

Ce2e Cf2e Cg2n Ec4e

This would provide more protection on f3 trap, get his E one step closer to helping out on defense and block our E from switching up and going after his horse.

I think he will realize that he can't afford to race right now and he will make a defensive move.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by RonWeasley on Mar 1^st, 2008, 3:01pm

Begin voting Monday morning?

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 2^nd, 2008, 7:09am

on 02/28/08 at 12:52:11, UruramTururam wrote:

Btw - what does Bomb propose now?

Bomb is generally helpless in positions where long-term planning is required, but just for fun I let it run on this position for a bit. I was surprised that Bomb basically agreed with what we had posted so far. At every depth Bomb wanted to play e->e3, and for the fourth step it flip-flopped between dd7s, he6e(!), and he6w.

I guess that e->e3 is tactically necessary to avoid material loss, so it makes sense that Bomb agrees with us about that. The long-term planning kicks in for the fourth step, and also depends on what we expect chessandgo to do, so it makes sense that the Mobsters are not unanimous and Bomb can't make up its mind either.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Soter on Mar 2^nd, 2008, 1:58pm

Quote:

I guess that e->e3 is tactically necessary to avoid material loss, so it makes sense that Bomb agrees with us about that. The long-term planning kicks in for the fourth step, and also depends on what we expect chessandgo to do, so it makes sense that the Mobsters are not unanimous and Bomb can't make up its mind either.

Yeah, I too failed to find a superior 27b without e->e3. I prefer your 27b ef5w ee5s ee4s he6w, Fritz - I think we don't lose much delaying the completion of our ED attack and leaving c6 underdefended may haunt us later. I think I'm ready to vote tomorrow.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 2^nd, 2008, 5:28pm

on 03/02/08 at 13:58:37, Soter wrote:

I haven't looked at it closely enough to have a strong preference, but 27b ef5w ee5s ee4s he6w seems to give us a solid, flexible position. Maybe the real argument will come next move when we see whether chessandgo plays defensively, as mistre expects, or plays for counter-attack as he did a few moves ago.

Either way, I quite like our position. Not only are we ahead by a rabbit, we have a better distribution of pieces. Chessandgo's decentralized horse means our dog has lots of potential on the other wing. Of course, an advantage based on piece-placement can always disappear as pieces regroup, but at a minimum it looks like a time advantage on top of our material advantage.

I was afraid we would come out of the tactical fireworks with only equality, but instead it seems our advantage is if anything clearer than it was before. (Unless I'm wrong for the hundredth time this game :P)

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by arimaa_master on Mar 3^rd, 2008, 5:33am

I am ready to vote for 27b ef5w ee5s ee4s he6w for the reasons mentioned above.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by RonWeasley on Mar 4^th, 2008, 3:37pm

TheMob chooses e->e3, h->d6 by a healthy majority. Now gold has to defend the cat and begin a plan.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by UruramTururam on Mar 4^th, 2008, 5:26pm

And our reserve is fully refueled :D

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 9^th, 2008, 3:19pm

For the record...

. . . . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4.
1. ef5w ee5s ee4s he6w (e->e3, h->d6) - 7 7 8
2. ef5w ee5s ee4s dd7s (e->e3, d->d6) 1 - 5 6
3. ef5w ee5s ee4s df7s (e->e3, d->f6) 1 3 - 7
4. ef5w ee5w ed5w ec5w (e->b5) . 0 1 1 -