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        Team Games >> 2007 One vs TheMob >> Move 29
        
(Message started by: Soter on Apr 13^th, 2008, 8:58am)

Title: Move 29
Post by Soter on Apr 13^th, 2008, 8:58am

After almost 17 days chessandgo responds with 29w rb3e Db4s Ec4e Dd2e - the rabbit is now framed on c3 and guarded by the elephant (d3). If we want to stick with our previous plan and invade f3, we must provide some serious support for our dog.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 13^th, 2008, 9:59am

We obviously can't attack f3 if his elephant is going to be there, but the fact that he stepped one east with his elephant opens the door for our horse to jump into b4. Here comes the swarm, baby!

Realistically chessandgo will have to use his elephant to keep our horse tied down, which re-opens the door for our dog in the east. I'm not quite sure how we would need to divide our attention between the two wings, though, because we will need to stay active in the west too. I haven't played out any lines yet; the horse charge is just my gut reaction.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by UruramTururam on Apr 13^th, 2008, 3:27pm

Before reading the Fritzlein comment I had a look at the board and tried:

29b: hd6w hc6s hc5s dd7s

I'm glad that Fritz' also thinks the horse charge is OK.
I've tried also advancing our left wing dog as the fourth step but I find leaving it just 2 steps from C&G's elephant is not a very bright idea.

Edit: Taking into account the time Chessango used to make his latest move we should be aware that he is just luring our horse to charge...

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by RonWeasley on Apr 15^th, 2008, 7:30am

After 29b h->b4, should we worry about 30w Ha4n Ed4w hb4w Ec4w? It gives gold a roaming horse.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by arimaa_master on Apr 15^th, 2008, 7:45am

First look at the position and here are my thoughts:

We should do threat to go to b3 with our horse - thus hd6w hc6w

We should strenghten defence of home traps + prepare sole for attack - thus ce7s dd7s.

So the right choice should be:

29b hd6w hc6w ce7s dd7s

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by mistre on Apr 15^th, 2008, 11:40am

I like a dog charge to h2. This puts an immediate threat on his cat and our dog is too far away for him to chase with his elephant. If he does migrate that way, then we pounce on c3 with our horse. If not, we either start advancing other pieces in the east or start dragging his rabbits/cat back to our trap - not sure which is better.

29b dg5s dg4s dg3e dh3s

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by mistre on Apr 15^th, 2008, 11:46am

on 04/15/08 at 07:30:12, RonWeasley wrote:

After 29b h->b4, should we worry about 30w Ha4n Ed4w hb4w Ec4w? It gives gold a roaming horse.

Yes, I think we should be worried. I don't think the swarm is going to work too well in this circumstance. He can neutralize our H with his E and our D with his H.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 15^th, 2008, 12:55pm

If we play on either wing without playing on the other chessandgo will have an easy time keeping everything under control. It's just a question of which wing we should focus on first, how to split moves between the two wings. We have to make sure that if chessandgo's elephant commits to one side we can make gains on the other side. One option is to go half on each wing with

29b hd6w hc6s dg5s dg4s.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 15^th, 2008, 1:00pm

on 04/15/08 at 11:46:53, mistre wrote:

Yes, I think we should be worried. I don't think the swarm is going to work too well in this circumstance. He can neutralize our H with his E and our D with his H.

It's not trivial for him to get his horse across to the other wing without getting intercepted by our elephant, assuming our horse is being held hostage on a4 rather than a3. This may be a case where playing out illustrative lines helps. Not that anything is forced, but examples of moves by each side can shape our intuition as to how good/bad it would be to give up our horse hostage.

Oh, or did you mean his horse can neutralize our western dog? As long as his horse and elephant are both tied to defense in the west, the swarm is probably working. Sure, he can "neutralize" the attack, but can he get our attackers as hostages on good squares? His elephant alone can obviously prevent us from capturing anything, but who would be gaining strategic options, and who would be losing them?

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 15^th, 2008, 1:24pm

on 04/15/08 at 11:40:07, mistre wrote:

I'd actually like to force him to commit his elephant to one wing or the other. After putting our dog on h2 it seems 30w Ha4e De2n Rf1n Cg2n keeps all of Gold's options open, including chasing our dog with his elephant if the tries to get near f3, a rousing attack on c6 if we don't block it, and 31w E->d4 H->e3 if we play quietly.

In general I think extremely active play is called for; it might be worth taking a risk in order to constrain his possible replies.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 15^th, 2008, 1:30pm

on 04/15/08 at 07:30:12, RonWeasley wrote:

After 29b h->b4, should we worry about 30w Ha4n Ed4w hb4w Ec4w? It gives gold a roaming horse.

I think I'm more worried about 30w Ha4n Ed4w Ha5e Ra2n, but we should definitely play out some horse hostage lines.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by jdb on Apr 15^th, 2008, 1:34pm

I agree that play on both wings is eventually required. How about a slight modification of mistre's d->h2 idea.

29b dg5s dg4s Cg2w dg3s

Now if
30w E->h3
31b H->c4 E->e3

The dog on g2 blocks out gold's access to the h file. This makes a rabbit advance on that side of the board somewhat threatening.

Gold's f2 cat needs 2 steps to protect it from capture, many of which move gold's pieces farther from the h file.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 15^th, 2008, 2:11pm

on 04/15/08 at 13:34:37, jdb wrote:

I agree that play on both wings is eventually required.

To amplify this point, every time we make his elephant switch wings, we gain time, because our elephant will be shuttling between e3 and d3, while his will be shuttling between c4 and f4. But if our move doesn't force him to commit, we gain no time as both of our elephants sit in the center.

on 04/15/08 at 13:34:37, jdb wrote:

How about a slight modification of mistre's d->h2 idea.

29b dg5s dg4s Cg2w dg3s

I think that 30w De2n Cf2n Cf3e Rf1n leaves Gold in reasonable shape, but we are two steps better off than in the d->h2 line, because our dog is on g2, not h2, and because his horse is still on a4, not b4.

Generally speaking, I think our dog has to sit on g3 to give us threats against f3, as opposed to merely threats to push his pieces to our side in a situation where we want to be swarming, not helping him swarm. I'm starting to lean towards my split move.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 15^th, 2008, 2:25pm

How are we doing after

29b hd6w hc6s dg5s dg4s
30w De2n Rf1n Ha4e Rc1e
30b hc5s De3s ed3e rc3e

?

I would happily trade HR for DCR or even DRR, but probably not for CRR

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by Ice on Apr 16^th, 2008, 9:18pm

Just a random thought but what about:
dg5s dg4s dg3w Cg2n

In order to get the Cat out of the hostage one of the rabbits will have to come up, or the elephant will have to commit to the side, or just let us pull the cat back to our trap.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 17^th, 2008, 4:55pm

on 04/16/08 at 21:18:42, Ice wrote:

It's a good idea to pose a threat, as your move does. However, my take on the position is that our strategic objective isn't so much to get a cat or rabbit over to our side, for two reasons. First, both sides are missing a horse and a camel. That makes the board a little looser, and generally tips the scale towards wanting to play on the opponent's side of the board rather than on our own side of the board. Advanced rabbits are always double-edged, but now they are less bad and more good than in the very opening of the game.

Secondly, our elephant is tied to the defense of our own advanced rabbit, so it isn't immediately available to help kill any of chessandgo's pieces that are on our side of the board. Our elephant is more tied down than his elephant at the moment.

The reason I suggest advancing our horse is to threaten to free up our elephant. The reason for advancing the dog is more subtle, because the dog by itself can't do anything. I view the dog advance as playing for position so that if our elephant comes back to e3, it is more forceful. I don't see a future for the dog undertaking a grand cat-capture scheme all by itself.

In response to your specific move 29b dg5s dg4s dg3w Cg2n, I foresee 30w Rf1n De2n Ha4w Ed4n. This leaves Gold safe around f3 for the moment, and threatening to smash into c6 with an elephant horse attack that will do a lot more damage than our lone dog can do. Furthermore, if we advance rabbits along with our dog (which is how I foresee increasing the pressure rather than by getting something back to our side), then chessandgo could cross wings with his horse, putting a stop to all our plans and before long forcing up to give up our framed rabbit.

Having played out a couple of lines, I'm more in favor of my suggested move 29b hd6w hc6s dg5s dg4s. We have to spend a least a couple of steps on our horse, or else his elephant and horse have too much freedom. Long term we have to threaten to free up our elephant, because our dog alone just doesn't cut it. At the same time, though, we don't want to go out of our way to help his elephant get our horse hostage with his elephant. Also g3 is a nice square for our dog, and I think we can get away with exposing it there.

To me it looks like both players want to swarm on both wings. I hope chessandgo wastes steps repositioning his pieces, because that will give us more tempo to get a rabbit advanced on each wing, our home traps triple-protected, and so on.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 17^th, 2008, 5:24pm

Well, on second thought, maybe our dog is just too exposed on g3, not to his elephant, but to his horse. After

29b hd6w hc6s dg5s dg4s
30w Rf1n De2n Ha4e Ed4n
30b cc7s rc8s hc5w rf8s
31w Hb4e Hc4e Hd4e He4e
31b hb5s Db3w hb4s dg3e
32w Hf4e Hg4s Ed5w Ec5s

I think I would rather be playing Gold. So I'm going to revert to wanting to spend all four of our steps in the west, just not all on the horse. Maybe 29b hd6w hc6s rb8s rb7s will help out our swarm timing. At least he will have trouble crossing with his horse, since his horse will not be making a threat when it crosses:

29b hd6w hc6s rb8s rb7s
30w Ed4n Ha4e Ra2n Ra3n
30b cc7w rc8s rc7s hc5w
31w Hb4e Hc4e Hd4e Ed5w
31b hb5s Db3w hb4s dd7s
32w Ec5s Ec4w De2w Rf1n
32b rc6s rc5s ed3e rc3e
33w Rb2w hb3s Eb4s Cg2n
33b rd3w dd6s dd5s dd4s

That line is just illustrative: of course chessandgo can play without crossing his horse, which holds back our swarm. If he does that, THEN we can start swarming the east as well.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by RonWeasley on Apr 18^th, 2008, 7:35am

Still room for discussion. This is an important move. Let's plan to vote Monday.

I tried other ways to make the h->c5, d->g3 move work, but whenever I tried to block the H from crossing, the silver h ended up being a hostage. So I can believe more advanced pieces in the west are needed.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by 99of9 on Apr 18^th, 2008, 8:43am

I haven't read all the analysis yet (will do so this weekend), but my quick look suggests that this move is strong:

dg5s dg4s Cg2e dg3s

It gets our dog behind enemy lines. If he wants to annoy it with his elephant, he has to go a long way out of the center and we can bring our horse up to help our rabbit.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by mistre on Apr 18^th, 2008, 9:30am

Fritz,

Check this line of moves. I think this leaves us in a strong position.

29b dg5s dg4s Cg2e dg3s
30w Ch2n Ch3w De2n Rf1n
30b Rf2n dg2w df2w ce7e

Thanks 99of9 for that move, or I wouldn't have seen the following line!

Edit -

this plan won't work with 30w Ch2n Ch3w De2e ...., but it might be worth a shot anyways if Chessandgo doesn't see that move. If we can get our dog around the backside of the c3 trap, it could prove very strong.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by jdb on Apr 18^th, 2008, 9:45am

29b dg5s dg4s Cg2w dg3s
30w De2n Cf2n Cf3e Rf1n (This can transpose from 990f9's move)

30b Rf2s dg2w df2w de2w

And silver's attack on the c3 trap is well underway.

I see mistre posted the same idea!

I think the cat move to protect the f6 trap can be left out. If gold captures the rabbit with his cat, there are many tactical weaknesses in his position.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by mistre on Apr 18^th, 2008, 9:48am

If I was Gold, I would plan a swarm attack in the west with the current configuration. If our dog can't cross over behind the c3 trap, then it is probably wise to move our horse over to b6 for protection.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 18^th, 2008, 11:33pm

on 04/18/08 at 08:43:48, 99of9 wrote:

dg5s dg4s Cg2e dg3s

It gets our dog behind enemy lines. If he wants to annoy it with his elephant, he has to go a long way out of the center and we can bring our horse up to help our rabbit.

That's a brilliant idea to bring our dog behind c3! I didn't even consider it. I wonder if chessandgo will see the danger even after our move.

I don't actually like pushing the cat east, since then his dog can take f2 with, for example, De2e Rc1e Rd1e Re1n, frustrating our design. However, as jdb pointed out, it gives new life to his suggestion. Here are some lines:

29b dg5s dg4s Cg2w dg3s
. 30w De2n Cf2n Cf3e Rf1n
. . 30b Rf2s dg2w df2w de2w
. . . 31w Cg3n Cg4n rg6w rf6x Cg5n
. . . . 31b dd2e Cc2e rc3s ce7e
. . . . . 32w Ed4w Ec4s Cg6s Rf1n
. . . . . . 32b dd7e de7s de6s de5e (-+)
. . . 31w rc3n Db3e Ha4e Hb4s
. . . . 31b rf8s hd6w hc6s rc4w (=+)
. . . 31w rc3n Db3e Ha4e Rb2n
. . . . 31b Cc2w dd2w rf8s rb8s (-+)
. 30w Ed4e Ee4e Ef4e Eg4s
. . 30b hd6s hd5w hc5s ed3e (-+)
. 30w Ed4e Ee4e Ha4e Hb4e
. . 30b ed3n rc3x Hc4n ed4w rf8s
. . . 31w Ef4w Ee4n Ee5w Hc5w
. . . . 31b Cf2n Cf3x dg2w ec4w rg6s (-+)
. . . 31w Ef4e Eg4s De2n Rh1n
. . . . 31b Hc5n Hc6x ec4n ec5s ec4w
. . . . . 32w Eg3w dg2n Ef3n dg3w df3x
. . . . . . 32b eb4e Db3n Db4n ec4w (-+)
. 30w Rf1w Cf2s Ha4e Ed4n
. . 30b dg2w rf8s rg6s rg5s
. . . 31w Hb4n Hb5n hd6e Ed5n
. . . . 31b df2e Cf1n Cf2n Cf3x dg2w
. . . . . 32w Hb6n cc7s cc6x Hb7e Ed6s (unclear)
. . 30b dg2w hd6w rg6s rg5s
. . . 31w Hb4e Hc4e Hd4e Rg1n
. . . . 31b Rg2n df2e Rg3w Rf3x dg2n
. . . . . 32w De2n Cf1n He4e Hf4s (unclear)
. 30w Ed4e Ee4s Ha4e Ra2n
. . 30b hd6s hd5w hc5s dd7s (=+)

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 18^th, 2008, 11:37pm

Oh, pooh. As I was posting that I saw

29b dg5s dg4s Cg2w dg3s
30w Rf1w Cf2s De2e Re1n

which puts the kibosh on our plans. Still, chessandgo might not see the danger, and even if he does, we haven't lost any time if he needs four steps to prevent it. Or have we? We need to see if he has the timing for a horse crossing if our dog is waiting vulnerable on g2. I may have to go back to advocating the western swarming move. :-( I've changed my mind a remarkable number of times already this move. :-)

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by 99of9 on Apr 19^th, 2008, 3:01am

on 04/18/08 at 23:37:11, Fritzlein wrote:

Oh, pooh. As I was posting that I saw

29b dg5s dg4s Cg2w dg3s
30w Rf1w Cf2s De2e Re1n

which puts the kibosh on our plans... We need to see if he has the timing for a horse crossing if our dog is waiting vulnerable on g2.

I don't think g2 is vulnerable until the horse comes all the way across. In the meantime we have the choice of rabbit pulls or attacking down the h-file.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by arimaa_master on Apr 19^th, 2008, 1:12pm

With suggested 29b dg5s dg4s Cg2w dg3s I smell some goal attack coming (ours - in not-so-distant future :)), thus bomb could be useful here.

So what does bomb think about 29b or 30w afterwards?

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 19^th, 2008, 3:37pm

on 04/19/08 at 03:01:22, 99of9 wrote:

I don't think g2 is vulnerable until the horse comes all the way across. In the meantime we have the choice of rabbit pulls or attacking down the h-file.

If we charge with our dog and chessandgo blocks us with his dog on f2, it looks like both pulling rabbits and attacking down the h-file are too slow compared to his horse crossing, as in the first two lines below. I think we would have to initiate a western swarm on our next move anyway, just to punish an immediate horse crossing as in the third line below. However, I'm afraid that if chessandgo times it right, his horse still gets across before our swarm hits home, as in the fourth line below. Our dog on g2 just means our elephant has to leave before it is entirely ready to leave. If we keep our dog back for now, we have more time to free up our elephant (and/or tie down his horse) with a western swarm.

Different lines could persuade me (my analysis is pretty superficial), but for the moment I still think we have to swarm in the west before charging with our dog.

29b dg5s dg4s Cg2w dg3s
. 30w Rf1w Cf2s De2e Re1n
. . 30b dg2n Rg1n dg3n Rg2n
. . . 31w Ed4n Ha4e Hb4e Hc4e
. . . . 31b dg4n Rg3n dg5e Rg4n
. . . . . 32w Hd4e He4e Hf4e Hg4e (+=)
. . 30b rh7s rh6s rh5s rh4s
. . . 31w Ed4n Ha4e Hb4e Hc4e
. . . . 31b dg2e Rg1n Rg2n dh2w
. . . . . 32w Hd4e He4e Hf4e Cf1e (+=)
. . 30b hd6w hc6s rb8s rb7s
. . . 31w Ed4n Ha4e Hb4e Hc4e
. . . . 31b rb6s hc5s ed3e rc3e (-+)
. . . 31w Ed4n Ha4e Hb4e Ra2n
. . . . 31b cc7s rc8s hc5w hb5s
. . . . . 32w Ed5w Hc4e Ec5s Hd4e
. . . . . . 32b rb6s hb4w Ra3s ha4s
. . . . . . . 33w He4e Hf4e Hg4s Re2n
. . . . . . . . 33b Db3n ha3e ed3n rc3e
. . . . . . . . . 34w Ec4s Cf1w Ce1w Cd1n (+=)

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by jdb on Apr 19^th, 2008, 6:45pm

29b dg5s dg4s Cg2w dg3s
30w Rf1w Cf2s De2e Re1n
31b hd6w hc6w hb6s rb8s

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 19^th, 2008, 8:27pm

on 04/19/08 at 18:45:56, jdb wrote:

29b dg5s dg4s Cg2w dg3s
30w Rf1w Cf2s De2e Re1n
30b hd6w hc6w hb6s rb8s

That is a better continuation for us. This clarifies for me that we are trying to delay his horse. His elephant actually wants to stay in the west, but if we get it to step west prematurely, that costs him at least a couple steps in the horse crossing. But the direct threat of our horse against b3 is hard for him to ignore. I think your move might just swing it, although I'll have to look at it more.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by RonWeasley on Apr 21^st, 2008, 9:10am

This discussion is worth delaying the vote. Please continue.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by RonWeasley on Apr 22^nd, 2008, 6:52am

Hey! I said PLEASE CONTINUE! With a please on it.

We'll vote Wednesday if there is no more discussion.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 22^nd, 2008, 8:03am

on 04/19/08 at 13:12:27, arimaa_master wrote:

With suggested 29b dg5s dg4s Cg2w dg3s I smell some goal attack coming (ours - in not-so-distant future :)), thus bomb could be useful here.

So what does bomb think about 29b or 30w afterwards?

Our goal threat is much too slow for Bomb to be useful yet. Just for grins I let Bomb think about 29b dg5s dg4s Cg2w dg3s overnight. At a depth of 18 steps (and almost all intermediate depths), it prefers 30w Ed4e Ee4e Ef4e Eg4s. It's last evaluation was -0.31, i.e. having our rabbit framed and our dog hostage makes Bomb think it has nearly neutralized our extra rabbit. Bomb would expect us to reply with 30b hd6s hd5w hc5s ed3e, which I agree is basically forced. So after

29b dg5s dg4s Cg2w dg3s
30w Ed4e Ee4e Ef4e Eg4s
30b hd6s hd5w hc5s ed3e

I let Bomb think to a depth of 12 steps, and it thought 31w Ha4e Rc1e Rb1e De2w would leave it at a score of only -0.10. This just show's Bomb's helpless strategic evaluation; it would even allow us to occupy d3 with our dog!

As with almost every time I dust off Bomb, I wonder why I did so instead of using the time for serious analysis, but I guess the occasional nugget of useful information is worth something.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by arimaa_master on Apr 23^rd, 2008, 9:44am

on 04/22/08 at 08:03:19, Fritzlein wrote:

Thanks for the effort. I think that we are heading into waters where soon (somewhere in the end of next 20 moves :)) bomb`s analysis will be useful.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by RonWeasley on Apr 24^th, 2008, 3:36pm

The winner, not surprisingly, is dg5s dg4s Cg2w dg3s. We are now attacking f3.

Title: Re: Move 29
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 24^th, 2008, 5:26pm

For the record:

. . . . . . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9.
1. dg5s dg4s Cg2w dg3s (d->g2, C->f2) . . - 7 8 7 8 7 8 9 9
2. hd6w hc6s rb8s rb7s (h->c5, r->b6) . . 2 - 3 3 4 3 6 5 6
3. hd6w hc6s hc5s dd7s (h->c4, d->d6) . . 1 2 - 3 3 5 4 4 5
4. dg5s dg4s Cg2e dg3s (d->g2, C->h2) . . 1 3 3 - 5 2 5 5 5
5. dg5s dg4s dg3e Cg2n (d->h3, C->g3) . . 0 2 3 0 - 2 5 4 4
6. hd6w hc6w hb6s hb5s (h->b4) . . . 1 3 1 3 3 - 4 3 4
7. hd6w hc6w ce7s dd7s (h->b6, d->d6, c->e6) 0 1 3 2 2 3 - 4 2
8. hd6w hc6s dg5s dg4s (h->c5, d->g3) . . 0 2 3 2 2 4 3 - 4
9. dg5s dg4s dg3e dh3s (d->h2) . . . 0 0 1 1 2 2 3 2 -

It is nice to have the ties and circular preferences at the bottom of the ballot this time. This week I fell way behind on my postal mixer games too, so I never looked as closely at this move as I would have liked. I'm really hoping that chessandgo overlooks the indirect threat to c2 and blunders strategically, because if he moves correctly, the tension jumps right back into the position and we have to play super-accurately to avoid falling into outright disadvantage.