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        Team Games >> 2007 One vs TheMob >> Move 33
        
(Message started by: Soter on Jun 4th, 2008, 1:30am)
Title: Move 33
Post by Soter on Jun 4th, 2008, 1:30am
Whoa, Jean responds after eight hours!

33w Ed4w rd3n Rf2w Hf3s

What do we do now? I spent only 5 - 10 seconds looking at it, but it looks kinda tricky. Do we have any appropriate lines?
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by arimaa_master on Jun 4th, 2008, 4:51am
First move saving dog (at least temporarily) what came to my mind is:

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by warren on Jun 4th, 2008, 4:52am
Getting out of an apparent bind like this is probably something a bot would be good for. Does someone have one handy?

Update: the best free bot I'm aware of is an old version of Fairy (see arimaa downloads page), but I'd have to recompile it to run on this old machine with less than the hardcoded 512MB of RAM, which would in turn require me to get around to getting a compiler on this machine.
Title: Re: Move 33rd4
Post by warren on Jun 4th, 2008, 4:55am
Moving our horse east twice and then putting his e3 dog on the trap would lose us the rabbit but not our dog or horse.

Update: Never mind, a good counter to the above is
34w rd4n Ec4e Ed4s Df3n
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by UruramTururam on Jun 4th, 2008, 8:51am
33b hb3e hc3e De3n hd3n - saves all our pieces for 1 turn (even the horse as E cannot enter the trap). But the resulting position looks like walking on the razor edge for me.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Soter on Jun 4th, 2008, 2:59pm

Quote:
33b hb3e hc3e De3n hd3n - saves all our pieces for 1 turn (even the horse as E cannot enter the trap). But the resulting position looks like walking on the razor edge for me.


If you mean hd3e as you fourth step, then a possible 34w Da3e Ec4s Ec3e xxxx worries me  :-/
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by mistre on Jun 4th, 2008, 5:25pm

on 06/04/08 at 04:51:44, arimaa_master wrote:
First move saving dog (at least temporarily) what came to my mind is:

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s


This move is the ONLY decent move I can find.  It accomplishes three things - threatens a goal, gets our E back central, and gets our Dog into the attack.  Unfortunately, looking ahead I don't see many great options for us.  The best I can do, without losing the dog outright, is to give up a double hostage H-D and E-H, but be able to block captures with our E, D, and R.  But if that can hold up long enough to get other pieces forward is the big question mark.

Also, once again Chessandgo surprises us with an even stronger move than we think.  I won't ever call any of his moves a possible blunder again.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by The_Jeh on Jun 4th, 2008, 10:39pm
That move is the best I can do, too. It appears that we can hold on to our material. Here's the best line I could find so far:

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b De3e ed3e ee3w rb7s
35w Df3n Rc1e Da3n Da4e
35b ed3e rd4s dd5w dc5s

The position at the end of this line is double-edged. Chessandgo has a horse and dog held hostage, as well as two free-ranging dogs. We are up a cat and rabbit in material, and have a somewhat dangerous advanced rabbit.

I think we should use as much of our seven days as possible to give as many people as possible time to weigh in, with Fritzlein being the name highest in my mind.
Title: Re: Move 33a
Post by 99of9 on Jun 4th, 2008, 11:29pm
Another option to analyze:
33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s

That is my bot's favourite at 12 ply (but it's still a pretty hopeless bot, so beware!)
Title: Re: Move 33a
Post by arimaa_master on Jun 5th, 2008, 12:23am

on 06/04/08 at 23:29:54, 99of9 wrote:
Another option to analyze:
33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s

That is my bot's favourite at 12 ply (but it's still a pretty hopeless bot, so beware!)


Interesting move but I think we are losing after simple:

34w Ec4w Eb4s Re2w Rg1w

(coz I donīt see how to hold all our pieces after this move - what does your bot think?).
Title: Re: Move 33a
Post by 99of9 on Jun 5th, 2008, 3:46am

on 06/05/08 at 00:23:00, arimaa_master wrote:
Interesting move but I think we are losing after simple:
34w Ec4w Eb4s Re2w Rg1w

Play continues after another threat:
34b Rd2e ec2e Re2s ed2e

But you might be right, our threats may peter out rapidly...  How would you continue for gold?
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by 99of9 on Jun 5th, 2008, 3:57am
Gnobby is still running and has changed it's mind:
(at 15 ply)
[d7-d6 b3-c3 g6-g5 g5-f5] [f2-f1 g2-f2 e3-d3 b2-b3] [b3-b4 c3-b3 b3-b2 f5-f4] [f2-f3 f1-f2 c4-c3 ....]

That is:
33b dd7s hb3e rg6s rg5w

Again, it looks risky, but plausible, and should be considered.  The continuation is a bit odd, so I'd suggest coming up with your own replies for gold.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Soter on Jun 5th, 2008, 4:08am

Quote:
33b dd7s hb3e rg6s rg5w


At first glance, I don't like gold's 34w rd4e Ec4e Ed4s Rg1w. For the time being I support arimaamaster's move

It's great to see Gnobby help us, though :)
Title: Re: Move 33a
Post by arimaa_master on Jun 5th, 2008, 4:09am

on 06/05/08 at 03:46:24, 99of9 wrote:
Play continues after another threat:
34b Rd2e ec2e Re2s ed2e

But you might be right, our threats may peter out rapidly...  How would you continue for gold?


33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Eb4s Re2w Rg1w
34b Rd2e ec2e Re2s ed2e

35w Rc1e Rb1e Rb2e Rc2e

And now I hope we must win some pieces, donīt we?
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by arimaa_master on Jun 5th, 2008, 4:16am

on 06/05/08 at 04:08:39, Soter wrote:
At first glance, I don't like gold's 34w rd4e Ec4e Ed4s Rg1w. For the time being I support arimaamaster's move

It's great to see Gnobby help us, though :)


Yeah, I looked at the position (before see yours move) and found at first glance exactly the same move (34w rd4e Ec4e Ed4s Rg1w).

I think that after that we are clearly winning (but I might be wrong).
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by 99of9 on Jun 5th, 2008, 4:51am

on 06/05/08 at 04:08:39, Soter wrote:
At first glance, I don't like gold's 34w rd4e Ec4e Ed4s Rg1w. For the time being I support arimaamaster's move


After that we could mount another threat:
34b hc3w rb7s rb6s rb5e
(threatening to slip the rabbit through the trap to c2)

But it's still on a knife edge.
Title: Re: Move 33a
Post by 99of9 on Jun 5th, 2008, 5:10am

on 06/05/08 at 04:09:34, arimaa_master wrote:
33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Eb4s Re2w Rg1w
34b Rd2e ec2e Re2s ed2e

35w Rc1e Rb1e Rb2e Rc2e

And now I hope we must win some pieces, donīt we?

Well, it depends...

Silver could play like a bot and delay it further:
35b Hf2n ee2e Cg3e dg2n
(with potential for plenty more chasings...)

Or may give up a piece, for a few threats of our own:
35b rd4w dd5s dd4s rg6s
36w Hf2n dg2w Hf3n df2n df3x
36b De3n ee2n De4n ee3n
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by arimaa_master on Jun 5th, 2008, 5:11am

on 06/05/08 at 04:51:11, 99of9 wrote:
After that we could mount another threat:
34b hc3w rb7s rb6s rb5e
(threatening to slip the rabbit through the trap to c2)

But it's still on a knife edge.


33b dd7s hb3e rg6s rg5w
34w rd4e Ec4e Ed4s Rg1w
34b hc3w rb7s rb6s rb5e

ok, but I think we wouldnīt be frightened just take the dog:

35w Hf2n dg2w Hf3n df2n df3x

and after

35b rc5s rc4s ec2e rc3s

we have

36w Rf1w Re1w Rh1w Rg1w

and now I donīt see any further progress for Gold.
Title: Re: Move 33a
Post by arimaa_master on Jun 5th, 2008, 5:22am

on 06/05/08 at 05:10:07, 99of9 wrote:
Well, it depends...

Silver could play like a bot and delay it further:
35b Hf2n ee2e Cg3e dg2n
(with potential for plenty more chasings...)

Or may give up a piece, for a few threats of our own:
35b rd4w dd5s dd4s rg6s
36w Hf2n dg2w Hf3n df2n df3x
36b De3n ee2n De4n ee3n



Wow, yes indeed - there are planty of subtleties further - I think at this point it is no need to go further (to be still pretty sure that we wonīt be worse) because maybe we have better moves earlier (I donīt claim that my 34w (and next golds moves) are optimal).
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by 99of9 on Jun 5th, 2008, 5:48am

on 06/05/08 at 05:11:37, arimaa_master wrote:
33b dd7s hb3e rg6s rg5w
34w rd4e Ec4e Ed4s Rg1w
34b hc3w rb7s rb6s rb5e

ok, but I think we wouldnīt be frightened just take the dog:

35w Hf2n dg2w Hf3n df2n df3x

and after

35b rc5s rc4s ec2e rc3s

we have

36w Rf1w Re1w Rh1w Rg1w

and now I donīt see any further progress for Gold.

Hmm.. ok, I don't know what I was thinking there.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by jdb on Jun 5th, 2008, 9:14am
So far lots of interesting ideas and possibilities.

33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s

How does silver answer:

a) 34w Ec4w Eb4s Re2w De3s
b) 34w Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w

How about a move that combines some of the ideas given in the other posts:

33b dd7s dd6s rb7s rb6s

There is a goal threat, so the dog is safe (for now). The b3 horse can now run to a6.

Title: Re: Move 33
Post by RonWeasley on Jun 5th, 2008, 9:47am
I haven't abandoned you guys.  I've got a close relative in St. Mungo's and it's taking all my time.  The goal threat is keeping us alive here.  It's amazing we missed chessandgo's response, but it's not clear now that we won't be able to stall while we get a swarm going or push our rabbit to the seventh rank.  Keep going.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by arimaa_master on Jun 5th, 2008, 10:45am

on 06/05/08 at 09:14:40, jdb wrote:
So far lots of interesting ideas and possibilities.

33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s

How does silver answer:

a) 34w Ec4w Eb4s Re2w De3s
b) 34w Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w

How about a move that combines some of the ideas given in the other posts:

33b dd7s dd6s rb7s rb6s

There is a goal threat, so the dog is safe (for now). The b3 horse can now run to a6.


Your's 33b is interesting but after:

34w Rc1e Rb1e Rg1w De3w

I donīt see how silver can avoid loss of material.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by warren on Jun 5th, 2008, 4:11pm
Here's a list of all the lines I've seen posted so far. I'll update this post as more lines are found. I haven't decided which move I like best yet.


Moves with possible potential
=====================

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s (arimaa_master)
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s (The jeh)
 34b De3e ed3e ee3w rb7s
  35w Df3n Rc1e Da3n Da4e
   35b ed3e rd4s dd5w dc5s
    36w Db4n Eb3n Eb4s dc4w (Warren)
......36b ee3n Df4n ee4e ce7s (Warren)
...... 37w Eb3e Ec3w rd3wx Db5w
......  37b Df5nx ef4n ef5w ee5w
......   38w Eb3w hb2n hb3ex Ea3e
......    38b ed5w ec5w db4e dc4n
......     39w Hf2s dg2w df2nx Hf1n
 34b De3e ed3e rd4s rd3s (F)
  35w Rc1e Rg1w Rf1w Df3n (AM)
   35b ee3w dd5w dc5s rb7s (the jeh)
    36w Re2n Hf2w He2e rd2e
......36b Re3n ed3e re2w ee3w
   35b ee3w dd5w dc5s dc4s (Fritzlein)
    36w Da3n Da4e Db4e Df4w
 .   36b See Fritzlein's post at the bottom of page 4 for continuations.
 34b dd5w dc5s rb7s rb6s (F)
 .35w Re2w Da3n Rb1w Ra2n
 . 35b De3e ed3e rd4s ra8s
 .  36w Da4n Da5n Da6e Ra3n
 .   36b dc4s dc3n Rc2n ee3s
 .    37w Df3w Db6n cc7s cc6x Db7e
 .     37b ee2s Rd2e dc4e rd3s
 .     .38w De3w hb2w Eb3s Rc1e
 .     . 38b Re2n ee1n rb5s rb4s
 .     .  39w Rc3n Dd3w rd2n Dc3s
 .     .   39b ee2w Dc2n ed2w rd3s
 .     .    40w Hf2w rd2n He2w Ra4n
 .     .     40b Rc4w Dc3x dd4w dc4n dc5w
 .35w De3n rd4n De4w Da3n (F)
 . 35b ed3e Re2s ee3s dc4n
 .  36w Eb3e hb2n Ec3n hb3e hc3x
 .   36b Hf2n ee2e Cg3n Hf3x dg2n
 .    37w Ec4s dc5s Ec3e dc4s dc3x
 .     37b Cg4w dg3n Cf4s Cf3x dg4w
34w Ec4w rd4w rc4n Eb4e (mistre)
 34b Da3n hb3w De3e ed3e (warren)
  35w Ec4w rc5s rc4s rc3x Eb4e
   35b Da4n ha3n Da5n ha4n
  35w Ec4w Eb4s Df3n Rb2e
 34b Da3n hb3w rb7s rb6s (99)
  35w Hf2s dg2w df2n df3x Hf1n
   35b rb4s rb3e rc3s ha3e (An illegal move)
34w Rb2e Ra2e Rc2e Rb2e (jdb)
 34b De3e ed3e rd4s rb7s (F)
 .35w Ec4w hb3s Eb4s Rg1w (jdb)
 . 35b dd5w dc5s rb6s rb5s (F)
 .  36w Da3n rb4n Da4e Rf1w
 .   36b dc4s dc3n Rc2n ra8s

33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s (99's bot, 12 and 16 ply)
34w Ec4w Eb4s Re2w Rg1w (AM)
 34b Rd2e ec2e Re2s ed2e (AM)
  35w Rc1e Rb1e Rb2e Rc2e (AM)
   35b Hf2n ee2e Cg3e dg2n (99)
    36w dg3n Hf3e Re1n Rd2n (Warren)
......36b rd4w dd5s Rd3w dd4s
...... 37w Rc1n Eb3n Eb4s rc4w
......  37b rb7sses
   35b rd4w dd5s dd4s rg6s (99)
    36w Hf2n dg2w Hf3n df2n df3x (99)
......36b De3n ee2n De4n ee3n (99)
34w Ec4w Eb4s Re2w De3s (jdb)
 34b Rd2s ec2e De2s ed2e (99)
34w Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w (jdb)
 34b rb7s rb6s rb4e dd5s (99)
 34b rb7s rb6s rb4e rc4s (mistre)

33b dd7s hb3e rg6s rg5w (99's bot Gnobby, 15 ply)
34w rd4e Ec4e Ed4s Rg1w (Soter & AM )
 34b hc3w rb7s rb6s rb5e (99)
  35w Hf2n dg2w Hf3n df2n df3x (AM)
   35b rc5s rc4s ec2e rc3s
    36w Rf1w Re1w Rh1w Rg1w
......36b hb3n Rb2n Rb3e hb4s (Warren)  


Moves that seem bad
========================

33b dd7s dd6s rb7s rb6s  (jdb)
34w Rc1e Rb1e Rg1w De3w (AM)

33b hb3e hc3e De3e hd3e (warren)  
34w rd4n Ec4e Ed4s Df3n  

33b hb3e hc3e De3n hd3e (UruramTururam )
34w Da3e Ec4s Ec3e xxxx (Soter)  

33b dd7s dd6s hb3n rb7s (mistre)
34w De3w Rg1w Rc1e Rb1e   (mistre)
 34b ec2e Dd3w ed2n ed3e  (mistre)
  35a Dc3e hb4s Ec4w Rb2e (Warren)
34w rd4e Ec4e Ed4s Rg1w (AM)

33b ec2e Re2s ed2e hb3n (mistre)
34w hb4s Ec4w hb3e hc3x Eb4s
 34b Hf2s ee2e Cg3n dg2n
34w Ec4n hb4e hc4s hc3x Ec5s (AM)
 34b Hf2s ee2e Cg3n dg2n
  35w rd4n Ec4e Ed4e Ee4e

Title: Re: Move 33
Post by warren on Jun 5th, 2008, 4:26pm

on 06/04/08 at 22:39:45, The_Jeh wrote:
That move is the best I can do, too. It appears that we can hold on to our material. Here's the best line I could find so far:

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b De3e ed3e ee3w rb7s
35w Df3n Rc1e Da3n Da4e
35b ed3e rd4s dd5w dc5s

If he responds with
36w Db4n Eb3n Eb4s dc4w
all our forward pieces except rabbit and elephant are frozen, which seems quite bad.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by mistre on Jun 5th, 2008, 5:12pm
After looking at our choices and not being really happy with any of them - I have a new move to consider:

33b dd7s dd6s hb3n rb7s

This move prevents an immediate horse hostage and also prevents a rabbit flip to c5.

If he responds with:
34w De3w Rg1w Rc1e Rb1e

Then we can:
34b ec2e Dd3w ed2n ed3e

This protects all of our pieces for another move.  What are some possible 35w's that could put us in danger?  If he goes after our H, we can probably trade Dogs.  If he plays more defensive, we can probably swarm.
Title: Re: Move 33w
Post by warren on Jun 5th, 2008, 7:29pm

on 06/05/08 at 17:12:36, mistre wrote:
After looking at our choices and not being really happy with any of them - I have a new move to consider:

33b dd7s dd6s hb3n rb7s

This move prevents an immediate horse hostage and also prevents a rabbit flip to c5.

If he responds with:
34w De3w Rg1w Rc1e Rb1e

Then we can:
34b ec2e Dd3w ed2n ed3e

This protects all of our pieces for another move.  What are some possible 35w's that could put us in danger?  If he goes after our H, we can probably trade Dogs.  If he plays more defensive, we can probably swarm.

Hmm, maybe something like
35w Dc3e hb4s Ec4w Rb2e
?

Does anyone have any long-term plans about how we might unfreeze our horse or dog if we can keep them alive for a while? Freeing the horse seems difficult, but perhaps we can swarm in the west to keep our horse alive while sending our elephant east to go save our dog and threaten his horse?
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by arimaa_master on Jun 6th, 2008, 12:55am

on 06/05/08 at 17:12:36, mistre wrote:
After looking at our choices and not being really happy with any of them - I have a new move to consider:

33b dd7s dd6s hb3n rb7s

This move prevents an immediate horse hostage and also prevents a rabbit flip to c5.

If he responds with:
34w De3w Rg1w Rc1e Rb1e

Then we can:
34b ec2e Dd3w ed2n ed3e

This protects all of our pieces for another move.  What are some possible 35w's that could put us in danger?  If he goes after our H, we can probably trade Dogs.  If he plays more defensive, we can probably swarm.



I think here could work already known theme (from 33b dd7s hb3e rg6s rg5w) - so after:

33b dd7s dd6s hb3n rb7s

gold has:

34w rd4e Ec4e Ed4s Rg1w

and now we arenīt able to prevent loss of material.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by 99of9 on Jun 6th, 2008, 3:24am

on 06/05/08 at 09:14:40, jdb wrote:
So far lots of interesting ideas and possibilities.

33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s

How does silver answer:

a) 34w Ec4w Eb4s Re2w De3s

Rd2s ec2e De2s ed2e
now if he kills our horse, we kill his horse (and take control of an entire trap!)
he has other protecting options, but they don't look that great, and we have plenty of time to come back and protect the horse if we need.


Quote:
b) 34w Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w

I'm not sure what is best, there are quite a few reasonable possibilities.  One option is:
rb7s rb6s rb4e dd5s
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by mistre on Jun 6th, 2008, 6:02am

on 06/06/08 at 00:55:32, arimaa_master wrote:
I think here could work already known theme (from 33b dd7s hb3e rg6s rg5w) - so after:

33b dd7s dd6s hb3n rb7s

gold has:

34w rd4e Ec4e Ed4s Rg1w

and now we arenīt able to prevent loss of material


Agreed, file 33b dd7s dd6s hb3n rb7s under the clearly bad moves.
Title: Re: Move 3333b ec2e
Post by mistre on Jun 6th, 2008, 6:27am
How about a crazy idea - give up our horse to get play on the c6 trap.

33b ec2e Re2s ed2e hb3n
34w hb4s Ec4w hb3e hc3x Eb4s
34b Hf2s ee2e Cg3n dg2n

From here, since his E is out of position, we will capture something in C6.  If he scatters, we get a Cat and a possible attack up the barren east side.  If he takes 2 turns to get his E over, we get a Dog.

If we decide that trying to play both traps and keeping every one alive will be futile and just lead to worse board position, we might need to give up a piece now.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by warren on Jun 6th, 2008, 7:00am
The following line seems to save our material, and is the only one I'm aware of that does so.

33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s (99's bot, 12 ply)
34w Ec4w Eb4s Re2w Rg1w (AM)
 34b Rd2e ec2e Re2s ed2e (AM)
  35w Rc1e Rb1e Rb2e Rc2e (AM)
Silver could play like a bot and delay it further: (with potential for plenty more chasings...)  
   35b Hf2n ee2e Cg3e dg2n (99)

The key idea of that line of play and how to continue it is to delay long enough using goal and material threats to get our d-file dog and some rabbits to swarm the c3 trap, leaving our elephant to go save our hostage g2 dog and harass his horse. Note that it's key to send a rabbit to c4 rather than a dog, since whatever we put there can be taken hostage by his elephant.

In alternate lines where we lose a dog, I don't see how the threats we make are worth the loss of dog. I therefore tentatively support 33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s. Does anyone know how he can defeat this move?

Update: can someone with a bot please ask it to analyze what he might do after 33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s? Perhaps there's a strong counter that we've missed so far.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 6th, 2008, 8:21am

on 06/04/08 at 22:39:45, The_Jeh wrote:
That move is the best I can do, too. It appears that we can hold on to our material. Here's the best line I could find so far:

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b De3e ed3e ee3w rb7s
35w Df3n Rc1e Da3n Da4e
35b ed3e rd4s dd5w dc5s

The position at the end of this line is double-edged. Chessandgo has a horse and dog held hostage, as well as two free-ranging dogs. We are up a cat and rabbit in material, and have a somewhat dangerous advanced rabbit.

I think we should use as much of our seven days as possible to give as many people as possible time to weigh in, with Fritzlein being the name highest in my mind.

The discussion on this move so far is great.  Does the team do better without me?  I'll drive home tonight, and hopefully contribute more analysis then or tomorrow.

If the following line is favorable to us (as I suspect) then chessandgo could be in a world of hurt:

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rd3s

In this line the absence of chessandgo's defensive cat in the west may be the critical feature.  What other gold piece can help?  If he has to let go of one of our hostages to defend, the fat lady is singing.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by mistre on Jun 6th, 2008, 10:04am
After 33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s

Chessandgo can just flip the rabbit to C5:

34w Ec4w rd4w rc4n Eb4e

This doesn't necessarily make this particular move bad - it might be the best move we have.  But it takes us out of any goal threat position.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by mistre on Jun 6th, 2008, 10:17am

on 06/06/08 at 07:00:11, warren wrote:
The following line seems to save our material, and is the only one I'm aware of that does so.

33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s (99's bot, 12 ply)
34w Ec4w Eb4s Re2w Rg1w (AM)
 34b Rd2e ec2e Re2s ed2e (AM)
  35w Rc1e Rb1e Rb2e Rc2e (AM)
Silver could play like a bot and delay it further: (with potential for plenty more chasings...)  
   35b Hf2n ee2e Cg3e dg2n (99)

Does anyone know how he can defeat this move?


34w Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w appears to be quite damaging to this 33b.  By dragging our R to b4 he creates a triple hostage.  Our only choice then is to create a goal threat through the C3 trap.

35b rb7s rb6s rb4e rc4s

Then from there it would be a race to see if we can goal versus him given up one or more hostages.
Title: Re: Move 3333b ec2e
Post by arimaa_master on Jun 6th, 2008, 11:11am

on 06/06/08 at 06:27:40, mistre wrote:
How about a crazy idea - give up our horse to get play on the c6 trap.

33b ec2e Re2s ed2e hb3n
34w hb4s Ec4w hb3e hc3x Eb4s
34b Hf2s ee2e Cg3n dg2n

From here, since his E is out of position, we will capture something in C6.  If he scatters, we get a Cat and a possible attack up the barren east side.  If he takes 2 turns to get his E over, we get a Dog.

If we decide that trying to play both traps and keeping every one alive will be futile and just lead to worse board position, we might need to give up a piece now.


Nice idea but gold can take our horse and still stay on c4:

33b ec2e Re2s ed2e hb3n
34w Ec4n hb4e hc4s hc3x Ec5s

and now

34b Hf2s ee2e Cg3n dg2n

meets

35w rd4n Ec4e Ed4e Ee4e

and we have no material compensation for lost horse.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by arimaa_master on Jun 6th, 2008, 11:16am

on 06/06/08 at 08:21:27, Fritzlein wrote:
Does the team do better without me?


No way! Without you - we are just groping in the dark.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by arimaa_master on Jun 6th, 2008, 11:29am

on 06/06/08 at 08:21:27, Fritzlein wrote:
The discussion on this move so far is great.  Does the team do better without me?  I'll drive home tonight, and hopefully contribute more analysis then or tomorrow.

If the following line is favorable to us (as I suspect) then chessandgo could be in a world of hurt:

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rd3s

In this line the absence of chessandgo's defensive cat in the west may be the critical feature.  What other gold piece can help?  If he has to let go of one of our hostages to defend, the fat lady is singing.


33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rd3s

is interesting but how we will continue after:

35w Rc1e Rg1w Rf1w Df3 ?

Arenīt we losing something?
Title: Re: Move 3333b ec2e
Post by mistre on Jun 6th, 2008, 11:31am

on 06/06/08 at 11:11:31, arimaa_master wrote:
Nice idea but gold can take our horse and still stay on c4:

33b ec2e Re2s ed2e hb3n
34w Ec4n hb4e hc4s hc3x Ec5s

and now

34b Hf2s ee2e Cg3n dg2n

meets

35w rd4n Ec4e Ed4e Ee4e

and we have no material compensation for lost horse.


Well, it turns out it not only is crazy, but stupid.  Scratch this off the potential move list.  Thanks for catching that Arimaa Master.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Soter on Jun 6th, 2008, 11:58am

Quote:
No way! Without you - we are just groping in the dark.

Seconded. It's great you're back, Karl.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by warren on Jun 6th, 2008, 5:47pm

on 06/06/08 at 10:17:32, mistre wrote:
34w Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w appears to be quite damaging to this 33b.  By dragging our R to b4 he creates a triple hostage.  Our only choice then is to create a goal threat through the C3 trap.

35b rb7s rb6s rb4e rc4s

Then from there it would be a race to see if we can goal versus him given up one or more hostages.


A better reply for us was given by 99:
 34b rb7s rb6s rb4e dd5s
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by warren on Jun 6th, 2008, 6:04pm

on 06/06/08 at 10:04:41, mistre wrote:
After 33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s

Chessandgo can just flip the rabbit to C5:

34w Ec4w rd4w rc4n Eb4e

This doesn't necessarily make this particular move bad - it might be the best move we have.  But it takes us out of any goal threat position.


Regarding
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w rd4w rc4n Eb4e
what about
 34b Da3n hb3w De3e ed3e
  35w Ec4w rc5s rc4s rc3x Eb4e
   35b Da4n ha3n Da5n ha4n
If instead he
  35w Ec4w Eb4s Df3n Rb2e
we swarm his c3 trap as in other lines.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by warren on Jun 6th, 2008, 6:14pm

on 06/06/08 at 08:21:27, Fritzlein wrote:
The discussion on this move so far is great.  Does the team do better without me?  

The team does better under pressure.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by The_Jeh on Jun 6th, 2008, 8:33pm

on 06/06/08 at 11:29:57, arimaa_master wrote:
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rd3s

is interesting but how we will continue after:

35w Rc1e Rg1w Rf1w Df3 ?

Arenīt we losing something?


Maybe, but not necessarily.

35b ee3w dd5w dc5s rb7s

Then c&g can capture the dog, but if he does so, we will basically be equal materially and will have a high-pressure goal attack in place.

If he declines to capture, say with

36w Re2n Hf2w He2e rd2e

then we can play something like

36b Re3n ed3e re2w ee3w

and capturing the dog will be almost forced upon him.


I'm not sure these lines are sound for us by any means, but they certainly deserve more scrutiny.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 6th, 2008, 8:54pm

on 06/06/08 at 11:29:57, arimaa_master wrote:
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rd3s

is interesting but how we will continue after:

35w Rc1e Rg1w Rf1w Df3 ?

Arenīt we losing something?


We don't lose material immediately, as we have the direct goal threat 35b ee3w dd5w dc5s dc4s.  However it is still unclear to me after 36w Da3n Da4e Db4e xxxx whether we will be able to use our goal threats to stave off material loss and/or engineer a trade of dogs rather than a loss of our dog.  If we can trade our hostage dog for his that had to expose itself on c4, then we are definitely winning.  I'll look at it more tomorrow.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by 99of9 on Jun 6th, 2008, 9:46pm

on 06/06/08 at 18:04:44, warren wrote:
Regarding
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w rd4w rc4n Eb4e
what about
 34b Da3n hb3w De3e ed3e
  35w Ec4w rc5s rc4s rc3x Eb4e
   35b Da4n ha3n Da5n ha4n
If instead he
  35w Ec4w Eb4s Df3n Rb2e
we swarm his c3 trap as in other lines.

If he played 35w rb4s Ec4w rb3e rc3x Eb4s
I think it's too late for a decent swarm - we're likely to lose another piece on top of the rabbit we gave up.

Another option for our reply after a rabbit flip would be to give up the dog for a decent rabbit threat:
34b Da3n hb3w rb7s rb6s
35w Hf2s dg2w df2n df3x Hf1n
35b rb4s rb3e rc3s ha3e
Title: Re: Move 33a
Post by 99of9 on Jun 7th, 2008, 5:26am

on 06/04/08 at 23:29:54, 99of9 wrote:
Another option to analyze:
33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s

That is my bot's favourite at 12 ply (but it's still a pretty hopeless bot, so beware!)

Gnobby returns to this move at 16 ply (it took almost 40 times as long as 15 ply, so I'm going to stop it now...)
Title: Re: Move 33a
Post by warren on Jun 7th, 2008, 7:36am

on 06/07/08 at 05:26:27, 99of9 wrote:
Gnobby returns to this move at 16 ply (it took almost 40 times as long as 15 ply, so I'm going to stop it now...)


Perhaps try asking it to analyze the position after 33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s?
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by warren on Jun 7th, 2008, 8:33am
The following two lines start out with similar themes.

The Gnobby line:
33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Eb4s Re2w Rg1w
 34b Rd2e ec2e Re2s ed2e

The AM line:
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
 34b De3e ed3e ee3w rb7s

On 34b, they diverge, with our elephant being more aggressive in the Gnobby line than the AM line. At first I wondered whether this divergence was do to the 33b moves themselves or the later moves, but it seems like it may be the original moves. The tactical reason that the Gnobby 34b doesn't work after AM's 33b is that in the AM line, there's a gold rabbit on c2, so
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
 34b ed3s Re2s ed2e xxxx
is met with
  35w Eb3e hb2n Ec3e hb3e hc3x
capturing the horse and blocking the goal threat at the same time.

This tactical difference is what allows for the better 34b which leads me to currently support
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s.

In my continuing efforts to be a devil's advocate against the popular 33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s, I think I'll try searching for good responses he might have against that.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by warren on Jun 7th, 2008, 9:33am
After
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s (arimaa_master)
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s (The jeh)
 34b De3e ed3e ee3w rb7s
  35w Df3n Rc1e Da3n Da4e
   35b ed3e rd4s dd5w dc5s
    36w Db4n Eb3n Eb4s dc4w (Warren)
The best continuation I see (other than giving up our dog) is
36b ee3n Df4n ee4e ce7s (Warren)
37w Eb3e Ec3w rd3wx Db5w
 37b Df5nx ef4n ef5w ee5w
  38w Eb3w hb2n hb3ex Ea3e
   38b ed5w ec5w db4e dc4n
    39w Hf2s dg2w df2nx Hf1n
which leaves us down a horse for a cat, though we do have a dog hostage.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 7th, 2008, 1:46pm
Warren, thank you so much for maintaining the analysis tree this turn.  It is helping me get up to speed, since there has been so much discussion.


on 06/06/08 at 07:00:11, warren wrote:
Update: can someone with a bot please ask it to analyze what he might do after 33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s? Perhaps there's a strong counter that we've missed so far.

I analyzed arimaa_master's move with Bomb's help, and found it mostly a distraction.  Even though we are getting closer to the type of position at which computers excel, with abundant capture threats and goal threats, Bomb still can't see deeply enough, and has poor enough positional judgment, that I still have found it useful only as a double-check on hand analysis, and a weak one at that.

I'm going to analyze arimaa_master's move again without Bomb (now that I have moved in all my neglected Postal Mixer games (How can you play so many, arimaa_master?)).  However, since you asked for a computer opinion, I let Bomb run for a couple of hours on the position after 33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s.  The results:

12 steps, -1.63, rd4e Ec4e Ed4s dd5s
13 steps, -1.77, Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w
14 steps, -1.89, Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w
15 steps, didn't finish in 2:19, previous move evaluated -1.95

If I finish with arimaa_master's move with Arimaa time to spare, I'll take a look at Gnobot's move.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by warren on Jun 7th, 2008, 4:19pm

on 06/07/08 at 13:46:50, Fritzlein wrote:
However, since you asked for a computer opinion, I let Bomb run for a couple of hours on the position after 33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s.  The results:
14 steps, -1.89, Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w

Hmm, it looks like we lose a rabbit or worse after
33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s (99's bot, 12 and 16 ply)
34w Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w (jdb)
 34b rb7s rb6s rb4e dd5s (99)
These moves were already in the analysis tree, but I had neglected to think sufficiently about what would happen afterwards until your posting of that bot analysis directed me to it.

I therefore no longer like the above 33b.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 7th, 2008, 5:36pm
Despite much effort, I couldn't get the position to work out in our favor after

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rd3s
35w Rc1e Rg1w Rf1w Df3n

so my initial feeling that chessandgo is on the ropes has faded.  However, I think we may have a workable alternative to our 34b, namely dd5w dc5s rb7s rb6s.  This alternative also threatens goal, so our dog is spared for another turn.  More importantly, it threatens to set up a semi-permanent defense of c3 consisting of our dog on c4 and rabbit on d3.  That would free our elephant to work on d3, initially to save our dog but soon to take control and start capturing.  Also it could devolve into an insane goal race, as in the following line:

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b dd5w dc5s rb7s rb6s
35w Re2w Da3n Rb1w Ra2n
35b De3e ed3e rd4s ra8s
36w Da4n Da5n Da6e Ra3n
36b dc4s dc3n Rc2n ee3s
37w Df3w Db6n cc7s cc6x Db7e
37b ee2s Rd2e dc4e rd3s
38w De3w hb2w Eb3s Rc1e
38b Re2n ee1n rb5s rb4s
39w Rc3n Dd3w rd2n Dc3s
39b ee2w Dc2n ed2w rd3s
40w Hf2w rd2n He2w Ra4n
40b Rc4w Dc3x dd4w dc4n dc5w

and Silver wins.  Of course many improvements will be possible for both sides, but it was such a fun variation I thought I would share.  Anyway, the line is illustrative insofar as our 34b limits the active plans available to Gold, and goal race is probably his best bet.  If he tries to hold back our rabbit instead,

33b dd7s dd6s ec2n ec3e
34w Rb2e Ec4w hb3s Eb4s
34b dd5w dc5s rb7s rb6s
35w De3n rd4n De4w Da3n
35b ed3e Re2s ee3s dc4n

seems to leave us a playable position, in particular the bloodbath

36w Eb3e hb2n Ec3n hb3e hc3x
36b Hf2n ee2e Cg3n Hf3x dg2n
37w Ec4s dc5s Ec3e dc4s dc3x
37b Cg4w dg3n Cf4s Cf3x dg4w

is nearly winning for us because of the weak defense in Gold's southeast corner.

For the moment I am going to consider the position after

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b dd5w dc5s rb7s rb6s

favorable to us, and look at Gold's alternatives on 34w.  My hunch is that if he can't afford to take our horse hostage on 34w, we ought to be able to wriggle free without material loss, but I've been wrong before (on this move, even!).
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 7th, 2008, 5:45pm
In this part of the tree

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s (arimaa_master)
34w Ec4w rd4w rc4n Eb4e (mistre)
 34b Da3n hb3w rb7s rb6s (99)
  35w Hf2s dg2w df2n df3x Hf1n
   35b rb4s rb3e rc3s ha3e

35b is illegal.  I think 99of9 misinterpreted mistre's move as flipping the rabbit to b5, rather than to c4.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 7th, 2008, 6:58pm

on 06/06/08 at 18:04:44, warren wrote:
Regarding
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w rd4w rc4n Eb4e
what about
 34b Da3n hb3w De3e ed3e
  35w Ec4w rc5s rc4s rc3x Eb4e
   35b Da4n ha3n Da5n ha4n

This line looks good to me.  Our extra cat is worth more than his dog hostage, because (so it seems to me) he can't get enough play with his elephant to stop us from eventually freeing our hostage.  Also I don't see how Gold can profitably deviate on 35w.  So this means 34w doesn't refute 33b, nor does anything else at the moment.  However, even after looking at it for several hours, I still feel that that I have barely scratched the surface of the complexity of the position after our move 33b.
Title: Re: Move 33Yes
Post by 99of9 on Jun 7th, 2008, 7:10pm

on 06/07/08 at 17:45:31, Fritzlein wrote:
In this part of the tree

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s (arimaa_master)
34w Ec4w rd4w rc4n Eb4e (mistre)
 34b Da3n hb3w rb7s rb6s (99)
  35w Hf2s dg2w df2n df3x Hf1n
   35b rb4s rb3e rc3s ha3e

35b is illegal.  I think 99of9 misinterpreted mistre's move as flipping the rabbit to b5, rather than to c4.

Yes, you're right, sorry.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Soter on Jun 7th, 2008, 11:45pm

Quote:
Despite much effort, I couldn't get the position to work out in our favor after

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rd3s
35w Rc1e Rg1w Rf1w Df3n

so my initial feeling that chessandgo is on the ropes has faded.


Fritz, I don't have enough free time to analyse the whole thing deeply, but doesn't 35b ee3w dd5w dc5s dc4s give us some hope?
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by jdb on Jun 8th, 2008, 5:25am
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Rb2e Ra2e Rc2e Rb2e

When gold takes the horse hostage on 34w, the b2 horse cuts down on gold's ability to shuffle rabbits around to block the goal threats. There are other ways to shuffle the rabbits over, if this attempt doesn't work for tactical reasons.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 8th, 2008, 6:07am

on 06/08/08 at 05:25:58, jdb wrote:
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Rb2e Ra2e Rc2e Rb2e

When gold takes the horse hostage on 34w, the b2 horse cuts down on gold's ability to shuffle rabbits around to block the goal threats. There are other ways to shuffle the rabbits over, if this attempt doesn't work for tactical reasons.

That 34w stops goal effectively, but the rabbit shuffle gives us time to contest both traps.  In other lines our swarm was just a step or two too slow, but after

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Rb2e Ra2e Rc2e Rb2e
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rb7s

we should be able to hang on to our material advantage and therefore be in good shape.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 8th, 2008, 8:18am

on 06/07/08 at 23:45:00, Soter wrote:
Fritz, I don't have enough free time to analyse the whole thing deeply, but doesn't 35b ee3w dd5w dc5s dc4s give us some hope?

Yes, that move gave me some hope, but I couldn't get it to work out after 36w Da3n Da4e Db4e Df4w.  It seemed that I always ended up with Gold winning our dog, and us not being able to force either a goal or a material return.  We were left with CR for D in all lines, and usually still having that rabbit on d2, but it never really loomed large.  Gold has counterplay with his advanced dogs which our dog and horse can't oppose.  Our elephant has to stop the opposing dogs, but a dog trade weakens our goal attack at the same time it stops Gold.  I was hoping to force a trade of our advanced rabbit plus dog for both his dogs, leaving us a clear cat ahead, but I couldn't pull it off.

In short, it doesn't seem worth giving up the dog if we have lines that hold on to our material, in particular  34b dd5w dc5s rb7s rb6s.  Of course I have not been able to verify my evaluation conclusively, but here are some variations from the position that you (and I) initially liked:

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rd3s
35w Rc1e Rg1w Rf1w Df3n
35b ee3w dd5w dc5s dc4s
36w Da3n Da4e Db4e Df4w
.    36b Rc2s dc3s ed3w rb7s (trying to trade dogs)
.    .    37w Hf2n dg2w Hf3w df2n df3x
.    .    .    37b Dc4n ec3n ce7w cd7s
.    .    .    .    38w De4n De5w cd6e Dd5n
.    .    .    .    .    38b dc2n Rc1n dc3e Rc2n
.    .    .    .    .    .    39w Re2e He3s He2n rd2e
.    36b Rc2s dc3s Rb1w hb2s
.    .    37w Hf2n dg2w Hf3w df2n df3x
.    .    .    37b dc2n Rc1n Rc2w dc3s
.    .    .    .    38w Eb3e dc2s Ec3s Dc4w
.    .    .    .    .    38b ed3n De4n ed4e ce7s
.    .    .    .    .    .    39w Rb2n Db4e Dc4s Dc3e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    39b De5e ee4n Df5n Df6x ee5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    40w Ec2w dc1n dc2n dc3x Eb2e
.    .    .    .    .    38b ed3n ed4w Db4n ec4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    39w De4w Dd4s Rb2n Re2e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    39b Db5e eb4n Dc5n Dc6x eb5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    40w Ec2w dc1n dc2n dc3x Eb2e
.    .    .    37b dc2w Rc1n Rc2n db2e
.    .    .    .    38w Eb3s Rc3w dc2n Eb2e
.    .    .    .    .    38b Rb3n dc3w Rb4n db3n
.    .    .    .    .    .    39w Dc4n Rb5w Dc5w Rh1n
.    36b Rc2s dc3s Ra2n hb2w (trying to make space)
.    .    37w Hf2n dg2w Hf3w df2n df3x
.    .    .    37b dc2w Rc1n Rc2n db2e
.    .    .    .    38w Rd1w Re1w Ra3n Ra4n
.    .    .    .    .    38b ha2s Rb1n ha1e rc8w
.    .    .    .    .    .    39w Rb2w Ra2n Eb3s Ra3e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    39b ed3n Dc4n ed4w rb7s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    40w He3w De4n De5w Dc5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    40b ec4e Rc3n Hd3w ed4s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    41w Rc4e Hc3n dc2n Eb2e
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by warren on Jun 8th, 2008, 8:42am

on 06/07/08 at 23:45:00, Soter wrote:
Fritz, I don't have enough free time to analyse the whole thing deeply, but doesn't 35b ee3w dd5w dc5s dc4s give us some hope?


It gives plenty of hope, but they appear to be false hopes! His swarm of rabbits and other pieces can get in the way faster than we can clear them, so goal threats seem like a tactical trick rather than something that we expect to actually succeed at this point. As noted in the analysis tree (see page 2 of posts), Fritz suggested a counter to that move, namely
   35b ee3w dd5w dc5s dc4s (Fritzlein)
    36w Da3n Da4e Db4e xxxx
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by arimaa_master on Jun 8th, 2008, 9:27am

on 06/07/08 at 13:46:50, Fritzlein wrote:
I'm going to analyze arimaa_master's move again without Bomb (now that I have moved in all my neglected Postal Mixer games (How can you play so many, arimaa_master?)).


I used to play very quickly (starting to take more time only when I get into trouble where unfortunately is too late and extra time is of no help :)).


This reminds me old joke of two processors conversation:

AMD talks to Intel:

AMD (slowly): What is the outcome of 1 + 1?
Intel (quickly): 3
AMD (slowly): But this is wrong answer!
Intel (quickly): Wrong but quick!

:)
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by arimaa_master on Jun 8th, 2008, 9:37am
All in all it seems that

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s

is our only good choice, isnīt it?

So I am for voice vote (and analyze glitches on chessandgo's time)!.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by warren on Jun 8th, 2008, 10:07am

on 06/08/08 at 09:37:07, arimaa_master wrote:
All in all it seems that

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s

is our only good choice, isnīt it?

So I am for voice vote (and analyze glitches on chessandgo's time)!.


Our time reserve is almost full (16.5 out of 21 days), this move seems pivotal and the best move isn't blindingly obvious to me, so I think we should use most or all of the alloted week thinking about this move (we have 2.5 days left). I currently support the move you mention, however I don't think we should start making an official decision for another day or so. Recall last move when chessandgo surprised us!
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 8th, 2008, 11:22am

on 06/08/08 at 10:07:09, warren wrote:
Our time reserve is almost full (16.5 out of 21 days), this move seems pivotal and the best move isn't blindingly obvious to me, so I think we should use most or all of the alloted week thinking about this move

Agreed, as long as people keep contributing analysis.  From my brief stint as Mob Coordinator, I can say it was frustrating to extend discussion on a critical move only to hear silence from then on.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by jdb on Jun 8th, 2008, 12:59pm

on 06/08/08 at 06:07:40, Fritzlein wrote:
That 34w stops goal effectively, but the rabbit shuffle gives us time to contest both traps.  In other lines our swarm was just a step or two too slow, but after

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Rb2e Ra2e Rc2e Rb2e
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rb7s

we should be able to hang on to our material advantage and therefore be in good shape.


34w Ec4w hb3s Eb4s Rg1w

The a3 dog can be used to create framing threats to gain control of the c3 trap. With two more steps of rabbit shuffles, the silver elephant wont be able to get access to the second rank to free the hostages. There may be a tactical way for silver to get out of this, but time is of the essence.


Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 8th, 2008, 1:23pm

on 06/08/08 at 12:59:07, jdb wrote:
34w Ec4w hb3s Eb4s Rg1w

The a3 dog can be used to create framing threats to gain control of the c3 trap. With two more steps of rabbit shuffles, the silver elephant wont be able to get access to the second rank to free the hostages. There may be a tactical way for silver to get out of this, but time is of the essence.

Ah, I hadn't considered the threat to frame our dog in c3 among the active plans for Gold.  Now that I look at it, though, it seems we can delay that threat indefinitely by pulling his rabbit into c3 first.

33b ec2n ec3e dd7s dd6s
34w Rb2e Ra2e Rc2e Rb2e
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rb7s
35w Ec4w hb3s Eb4s Rg1w
35b dd5w dc5s rb6s rb5s
36w Da3n rb4n Da4e Rf1w
36b dc4s dc3n Rc2n ra8s

That would be an interesting position, with neither side able to make immediate threats, since neither elephant is free, but our material advantage is intact, and we should be able to give as good as we get from there on, since we can swarm further without danger while he cannot.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by jdb on Jun 8th, 2008, 5:44pm

on 06/08/08 at 13:23:58, Fritzlein wrote:
Ah, I hadn't considered the threat to frame our dog in c3 among the active plans for Gold.  Now that I look at it, though, it seems we can delay that threat indefinitely by pulling his rabbit into c3 first.

33b ec2n ec3e dd7s dd6s
34w Rb2e Ra2e Rc2e Rb2e
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rb7s
35w Ec4w hb3s Eb4s Rg1w
35b dd5w dc5s rb6s rb5s
36w Da3n rb4n Da4e Rf1w
36b dc4s dc3n Rc2n ra8s

That would be an interesting position, with neither side able to make immediate threats, since neither elephant is free, but our material advantage is intact, and we should be able to give as good as we get from there on, since we can swarm further without danger while he cannot.


Gold's elephant can try and take the c4 dog hostage. The gold dog can take up position on b5 to hold back the rabbits. The position looks very complicated, which favours our side. Seems like a playable continuation.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by UruramTururam on Jun 9th, 2008, 3:06am

on 06/08/08 at 09:37:07, arimaa_master wrote:
All in all it seems that

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s

is our only good choice, isnīt it?


Yes, it seems to be...
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by warren on Jun 9th, 2008, 6:22am
I just got a Bomb registration code, but  now I need a move list. The first 13 moves are available http://arimaa.com/arimaa/twiki/bin/view/Arimaa/MoveList, but I don't really want to type in the next 20 by hand. Could someone who already has a current text move list (e.g. those with bots) please spend 60 seconds and update the wiki page?

thanks
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by arimaa_master on Jun 9th, 2008, 9:08am

on 06/09/08 at 06:22:47, warren wrote:
I just got a Bomb registration code, but  now I need a move list. The first 13 moves are available http://arimaa.com/arimaa/twiki/bin/view/Arimaa/MoveList, but I don't really want to type in the next 20 by hand. Could someone who already has a current text move list (e.g. those with bots) please spend 60 seconds and update the wiki page?

thanks


You can get move list from the game (but you need last game client selected). Just go to the Settings - Game Client - and select "Flash client V2 ...". Then load the Mob game from the list of postal games (Games - Postal games - it is very last down) and then only press "L" button below notation and you have what you want :)
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by RonWeasley on Jun 10th, 2008, 4:18am

on 06/08/08 at 09:37:07, arimaa_master wrote:
All in all it seems that

33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s

is our only good choice, isnīt it?

So I am for voice vote (and analyze glitches on chessandgo's time)!.


I was thinking the same thing.  Moves not including the goal threat seem to end in the loss of our dog.  We've refuted moving our horse with our last two steps.  Are there any other moves to consider?  At least we can identify our current move as unclear.

Please indicate voice vote for  33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s.  I'll use 7 votes (including mine) as a majority.  I'd like to move tomorrow.  If productive discussion pops up about another move, I will hold off.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by arimaa_master on Jun 10th, 2008, 5:00am

on 06/10/08 at 04:18:08, RonWeasley wrote:
Please indicate voice vote for  33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s.  I'll use 7 votes (including mine) as a majority.  I'd like to move tomorrow.  If productive discussion pops up about another move, I will hold off.


So my vote to 33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s  8)
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by jdb on Jun 10th, 2008, 5:13am

on 06/10/08 at 05:00:18, arimaa_master wrote:
So my vote to 33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s  8)


I vote to play this move.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by mistre on Jun 10th, 2008, 5:46am
It is the best we got - vote.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Soter on Jun 10th, 2008, 6:46am

Quote:
Please indicate voice vote for  33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s.

OK, I agree - let's play this one.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by warren on Jun 10th, 2008, 7:11am

on 06/10/08 at 04:18:08, RonWeasley wrote:
I was thinking the same thing.  Moves not including the goal threat seem to end in the loss of our dog.  We've refuted moving our horse with our last two steps.  Are there any other moves to consider?  At least we can identify our current move as unclear.

Please indicate voice vote for  33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s.  I'll use 7 votes (including mine) as a majority.  I'd like to move tomorrow.  If productive discussion pops up about another move, I will hold off.


I support that move.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 10th, 2008, 10:28am
I am not be interested in 33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s if it insures that we will lose our dog for compensation, because 33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s does at least that well, and if we are lucky it might do better and allow us to keep ahead materially.

So my question before I vote is whether anybody believes we can save our material advantage after

33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w.

(Sorry I haven't been able to look at it myself.)
(Anyway one more vote decides it no matter what I say, so it would be easier for someone to seal the outcome than to answer the question. :P)
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by mistre on Jun 10th, 2008, 11:02am
Not looking at any future lines - I like 33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s better because it gets our E back central and also keeps our Horse contesting the c3 trap.

From that standpoint, it would seem to be the safer move.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by RonWeasley on Jun 10th, 2008, 11:28am

on 06/10/08 at 10:28:36, Fritzlein wrote:
I am not be interested in 33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s if it insures that we will lose our dog for compensation, because 33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s does at least that well, and if we are lucky it might do better and allow us to keep ahead materially.

So my question before I vote is whether anybody believes we can save our material advantage after

33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w.

(Sorry I haven't been able to look at it myself.)
(Anyway one more vote decides it no matter what I say, so it would be easier for someone to seal the outcome than to answer the question. :P)


I tried to continue with

34b ec2e Re2s ed2e {dd4s, rb7s}
35w Rb2e Rg1w Rc1e Rd1n (Instead of taking the rabbit and freeing the horse)

From here gold captures dog or horse.  This can be delayed at the cost of an extra rabbit or dog.  I don't see how to avoid this.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by RonWeasley on Jun 10th, 2008, 11:32am

on 06/10/08 at 11:02:20, mistre wrote:
Not looking at any future lines - I like 33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s better because it gets our E back central and also keeps our Horse contesting the c3 trap.

From that standpoint, it would seem to be the safer move.


For your text, I think you mean 33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s.  Yes?
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by mistre on Jun 10th, 2008, 1:12pm
Yes, sorry about that.  I fixed it.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 10th, 2008, 3:06pm
OK, I am convinced.  Count me as the seventh vote for 33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s, although I am sorely tempted to vote for 33b ec2n ec3e dd7s dd6s instead.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by 99of9 on Jun 10th, 2008, 4:00pm

on 06/07/08 at 16:19:31, warren wrote:
Hmm, it looks like we lose a rabbit or worse after
33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s (99's bot, 12 and 16 ply)
34w Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w (jdb)
 34b rb7s rb6s rb4e dd5s (99)
These moves were already in the analysis tree, but I had neglected to think sufficiently about what would happen afterwards until your posting of that bot analysis directed me to it.

I therefore no longer like the above 33b.


This is still my favorite line, and I don't see how we lose a rabbit.  Is this what people think has refuted Gnobot's move???

Sorry to be slow to chime it, it looks like I've missed my chance to make the case.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by RonWeasley on Jun 10th, 2008, 4:16pm
Due to Mob pressure, I moved 33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s.  I almost used Fritzlein's alternate choice.

So let's see if this is what chessandgo planned on.  He was obviously ready for our last one.
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by warren on Jun 12th, 2008, 7:36am

on 06/10/08 at 16:00:17, 99of9 wrote:
This is still my favorite line, and I don't see how we lose a rabbit.  Is this what people think has refuted Gnobot's move???

Sorry to be slow to chime it, it looks like I've missed my chance to make the case.


Regarding
33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s (99's bot, 12 and 16 ply)
34w Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w (jdb)
 34b rb7s rb6s rb4e dd5s (99)
I don't have a proof that we would lose something; I just don't see a good way for us to save all our threatened pieces after that line. How would you envision that line continuing?
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 12th, 2008, 9:34am
I guess it is for the doubters to propose a refutation, since 99of9 has already given his move.  How about 35w Rg1w Rf1w Re1w Re2w?  I'm curious whether 99of9 can show we chose the wrong move...
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by 99of9 on Jun 13th, 2008, 12:40am
33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s (99's bot, 12 and 16 ply)
..34w Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w (jdb)
....34b rb7s rb6s rb4e dd5s (99)
......35w Rg1w Rf1w Re1w Re2w (F)
........35b ec2n ec3e rc4s rc3s (99)
..........36w Hf2s dg2w df2n df3x Hf1n (here's the piece you want to capture)
............36b Rd2e ed3s dd4s rb5s

Now the question is, can you (ie Jean) stop me forcing that rabbit through or taking control?

It looks easy, with something like:
37w Rh1w Rg1w Rf1w Cg3n
but then
37b dd3w ed2n Rd1n rh7s
Now my rabbit seems to have an almost permanent 7th rank outpost, and your elephant is semi-blockaded!  I can keep pulling rabbits to thin the defences to my heart's content.  That position looks very favourable to silver to me.

How would you improve on this line for gold?  Would you accept the dog capture?
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by chessandgo on Mar 14th, 2010, 5:54am

on 06/13/08 at 00:40:15, 99of9 wrote:
33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s (99's bot, 12 and 16 ply)
..34w Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w (jdb)
....34b rb7s rb6s rb4e dd5s (99)
......35w Rg1w Rf1w Re1w Re2w (F)
........35b ec2n ec3e rc4s rc3s (99)
..........36w Hf2s dg2w df2n df3x Hf1n (here's the piece you want to capture)
............36b Rd2e ed3s dd4s rb5s

Now the question is, can you (ie Jean) stop me forcing that rabbit through or taking control?

It looks easy, with something like:
37w Rh1w Rg1w Rf1w Cg3n
but then
37b dd3w ed2n Rd1n rh7s
Now my rabbit seems to have an almost permanent 7th rank outpost, and your elephant is semi-blockaded!  I can keep pulling rabbits to thin the defences to my heart's content.  That position looks very favourable to silver to me.

How would you improve on this line for gold?  Would you accept the dog capture?


35g Rg1www De3w perhaps?
Title: Re: Move 33
Post by chessandgo on Mar 14th, 2010, 6:39am
nice piece of analysis, this whole thread, by the way. I realize now better than ever that I stood little chance in a tactical fight. As soon as I had lost the strategic battle my chances were almost null I guess. Impressive thread :)


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