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Title: Post-Mortem Post by Fritzlein on Oct 21st, 2008, 8:50am Four moves ago I chided 99of9 for prematurely looking backwards instead of concentrating on winning the game. It turns out, though, that we were much closer to the end than I thought. Now that we have a forced win according to the bots I can hardly object to looking backwards and taking stock. My intuition is that chessandgo's move 35g De3n rd4n De4w Re2w was a critical turning point. For our move 35s, every move looked even for us at best except the move we actually played. However, if chessandgo hadn't played Re2w for his fourth step, our horse push would have been impossible! I'm guessing that changing that one step of that one move would have at least evened the game if not given chessandgo the advantage. It's easy when doing history to conclude that what actually happened was bound to happen. In this case we might feel that the Mob is just too strong for an individual to defeat. I don't feel that way at all, though. I think chessandgo's cat sacrifice, a move the Mob totally didn't consider, was a brilliant play that came within a millimeter of turning the game around. If we played again, I would assign a fair probability to a different outcome. |
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Title: Re: Post-Mortem Post by UruramTururam on Oct 21st, 2008, 3:12pm For some reason I still think that we could play better around moves 12-13 trying to "lock" the gold elephant on the far wild west having our own one in the center. But if we are going to win anyways it was not something that mattered too much. |
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Title: Re: Post-Mortem Post by Fritzlein on Oct 24th, 2008, 10:55am Some of the variations in our forced win at the end couldn't work if chessandgo's dog were still hovering around the c3 trap. His active play in the west was scary, but apparently helped us win faster. Was 41g therefore a mistake? I guess if he hadn't counter-attacked, we would have won his horse and ground him down slowly anyway, so maybe he was right to keep the game sharp. |
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Title: Re: Post-Mortem Post by camelback on Oct 24th, 2008, 12:31pm Fritz, Thank you for pulling me back into the game. I was detached from the mob for some time and if not you requested in the private chat to look at the position at move 41, I would not have looked at it. I was much thrilled that my proposal was selected by the mob. ;D I also take the opportunity to appreciate RonWeasley for his commendable effort as the mob moderator. |
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Title: Re: Post-Mortem Post by RonWeasley on Oct 30th, 2008, 7:44am And it's over. Silver wins in 46 moves. C&G wrote that he will try to post his notes this weekend. Of course, I invited him to read all of our comments and respond. My first question to him: Was it fun? |
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Title: Re: Post-Mortem Post by chessandgo on Oct 30th, 2008, 10:14am Definitely fun Ron (I must be somewhat masochist ::)), thanks again to all for playing and to you in particular for coordinating ! I think I will just post my raw notes, and read the Mob's comment before complementing it with a post-mortem analysis (which might be radically different from what I thought during the game I fear :)) |
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Title: Re: Post-Mortem Post by chessandgo on Oct 30th, 2008, 10:17am Here they are, ridiculous as they might seem :) 26/02/08 On Janzert’s advice, I start writing down some notes about the Mob game. I’ll try to remember what I thought about the previous moves (in a complete disorder ^^). Recent moves : 24b : I was expecting h to c5 instead of b4 (and dd7n rather than rg7n, altough I like the actual step now). That way, a horse trade would not have been forced after the camel trade (after the game’s 25w). I realized that this h to b4 might prevent the alternative 25w move (unfreezing to caMel to e4 and protecting f3 with C or R), due to h to b3 possibilities, but feels like pushing the dog to b4 would make the job too. I wonder whether silver should avoid the horse exchange, if the horse was on c5. 25w : I saw only one alternative : 25w Ed4n Me5s Ed5s Rf1n (or Ce2e, which would be preferable to anticipate rebalancing forces). Then pushing the Dog to c5 or c3 would ‘fail’ to the frame on c3, while the capture of the Hg5 on f6 would lead to something similar than the game, after I capture the camel and silver pushes my caMel to e5. But this alternative 25w would be crused by h to b3 it seems. This said, if the horse was on c5, then this alternative 25w would fail to 25b Dc4w hc5s ef5s hg5w it seems, as there is no c3 frame anymore with the Dog on b4. After the actual 25w, silver can’t take the Dc4, so there will be a MH for mh trade. Silver has an extra rabbit and my eastern wing is poorly defended, so I’m in bad shape. Feels like I let the game slip again with my 22w. After hating my position all along, 20b had made me feel ok, but I soon spoiled my chances (unless they were imaginary). The only question now is which two dog steps to play on next move after silver captures the caMel. If on d3, then 26b e to e3 will threaten to push the Dd3 to d5 on top of the rest. Sheltering to dog to c3 then would congestionnate my western wing and slow the rabbit framing/capture process. Same might go if I put my Dog directly on b3. It would be interesting to put the Dog directly on b5, but then e to c5 might be painful. Or h to b6, hoping to distract the phant while the rests attack f3. In any case, I need to reorganize around f3 before anything else. This c4 Dog would belong to g3, it’s a huge pain to have it on the wrong wing. I was disappointed by the ‘forced win’, I was expecting a goal in 3 rather :-) But in the end, it’s true that my position is painful. Not hopeless though. The tactical fight : 22w : I played this one too quickly. I had not looked further than 23w, and thought my position would be fine. I had not realized silver would have such play against my MH after 23b. Retrospectively, 22w H to f5 Rf1n would have been perfectly fine, with M to g5 coming soon. 23w : There I realized my mistake, but I had to go ahead. 23b : Ok, here they go. When playing 22w I had missed that 24w rb3n Ha3e Ec5e Rf1n would allow the camel to capture it on f3, unless I freeze it, while 24w rb3n Ha3e Rf1n Ce2n would allow 24b dd2s md3s Mf5n ef4n, and I’m one step short to push the hd6 and play E to d3 (and that would not be enough anyway ?). Finally 24w rb3n Ha3e Ec5e Ed5s would lead into 24b capture the caMel 25w md3w Ed4s Ed3n Hg6e and silver hostages the horse, I defend with my phant, and silver saves his b4 rabbit. Not sure what the horse hostage is worth, but with with a rabbit down and a space advantage for silver on the western wing, it seemed very unattractive. Not sure whether it is worse than the game’s result come to think of it. How about 24b H to c4 ? And how about 24w Rf1n E to d4 ? Before the fight (backwards) : 21b I was expecting H to c4, thinking that pulling the rabbit was no longer good. Then I would need to take c4 with my phant, I was wondering wether Dd4n ed3n mc3e (rb3e) would be a threat. I seem to recall I had decided it was not, but I can’t remember why. 21w Retrospectively, this Cf2w step is no good : I’ll have trouble with the undefended f3, and I’ll have to put that cat back to f2 to rebalance my army at one point for sure. I had not realized this at all at the time. Now I guess playing Rf1w instead would be fine. Maybe it’s not too bad to lose an extra step now unfreezing the caMel, as it will spare more trouble later. I could not use the Dd2 not to give c2. At this point, I thought I would come in time to save my Rh5, so I saw no clear plan for silver. Thought I had at least equalized in the end. I had spend most of my thinking time on the cc7 capture. Most of the lines were not enjoyable though, and it seemed that the best I could hope was a mere cat exchange, which does not favor me at all anyway, as I need pieces to defend c3. I was eager to go into tactical complications I guess, but this wasn’t the right time ... I fear that in a live game I would have spend my whole time reserve trying to make work a move that just had no chance to work, while I had a simple defensive move which left silver with no good follow-up ... 20b : I don’t understand 20b at all restrospectively. Feels like the position becomes equal then, like the Mob wanted to give me another chance. It’s not comforting that it took only 2 moves for me to blow the position again :-) 20w : I found no other move to prevent losing the Rh5 immediately. The threat to pull the m to b4, and then blockade with a Ra3 if silver doesn’t answer was not very impressive though. I expected a rabbitpull (hg6e hh6e Rh5n dd7s), and then ra8ss ha5s when I pull the m to b4 with Ha3e. Thought I would lose this rabbit iirc. The opening : 4w : Up to here, it is the same as my Postal 06 game with Toby. That game procedeed with my Ha6 enclosed by Toby’s ha5, with camels racing on the western side. I guess this is the reason for my poor 5w, I didn’t want to advance my horse to a6 and possibly go into a similar fight where I was saved by an odd-looking move. But my 5w is definitely a slack and poor move. I don’t know what to think of the game up to 10b. 11w might be a mistake, making the caMel passive, and 11b is very nice. Heard to say it was jdb’s move. Feels like the following is logical up to 13b. With phants (and accessorily camels) on the side of my rabbitpull, I’m in trouble. With 14w I was looking for a Hg6 to g5 pull if silver pulls the rh5, to brings phants towards the other wing, but it was an optimistic view ... I hated my 16w, leaving my dog with no retreat prospects, but couldn’t think of anything else. The opening up to here is a clear victory for the Mob... After 17w, I was expecting 17b hb4s rb8ss hg6s, and I was not sure to have anything concrete against the camel. But I found nothing else to do, and 17b surprised me. On 19b, I was expecting maybe a rabbitpull (to h6), or a flip Hb3 to b5 (I am not sure to remember well though). 27/02/08 26w : There are 3 choices : D to b5, b3 or d3. d3 seems wrong, although this Dog would belong to the eastern side, for silver will play e to e3 and df7s anyway, and my d3 dog will be of no use. b3 is the most logical choice, but after a horse trade, silver will play e to e3 and df7s. Then I can’t play E to f4, or e to b4 will get a good horse hostage, which would be even stronger than a usual camel hostage I think, with my depleted eastern wing defense. I can defend f3 only with C and Rs, but then silver will get a strong e+d around f3. My phant will come barely in time to avoid silver getting a rabbit through. The other alternative was D to b5, and then e to c5 as I thought yesterday would be completely wrong, as I have E to d6, getting initiative back, gaining time to capture the ra3 and reorganize on the eastern side. Silver would play h to b6 instead, with ef5w or df7s step, and I found no move threatening enough to force the phant coming back to the western side. So silver would get his e+d around f3 anyway, and the horse would be very well placed on b6. So this seems even worse, and I decided for b3. I expect 26b horse capture 27w horse capture, then 27b e to d3 df7s, 28w C to g3 Rf1n 28b d to f3 x (x being possibly rg6s, unless silver wants to drag my Cat to g5 on next move). 29w capture the Ra3, 29b either Rf2w df3s x x or 29b Cat to g5. Then 30w E to f4. The position looks really bad for me. I can’t believe the Mob will play 27b e to d3, declining the e+d attack. Simply framing the rabbit then trying to reorganize on the eastern wing should not be too bad for me. Come to think of it, I mentionned yesterday the possibility that silver avoids the horse trade, but the horse trade certainly underlines my eastern weakness, so this horse trade is good for silver. Finally, I like the Mob’s 24b. 17/03/08 : I don’t like this last step for 27b. df7s looked so much stronger. I agree that the horse might end up on the western side, but getting ready to e+d around f3 seems more pressing than transferring the horse. On f6, the dog coud go directly to f2 or g3 if gold doesn’t occupy these 2 squares, delaying the ra3 capture yet another move at least, and enforcing the e+d at once. In the game, for 28w, I could have played C to g3 and Rf1n, but then 28b d to f3 or g4 seems painful. It seems that the Mob will defend c3 with the phant. As the dog is still on f7, I can play my 28w. I expect something like 28b ee3w hd6ww dd7s 29w Cg2n Dd2w rb3e Db4s or maybe Cg2n Dd2wwn to get the Dog to g3 for sure. The position seems not as bad as expected. 28/03/08 : interesting. This 27b would probably be the move I’d have played with silver, but this seems in contradiction with the last step of 27b. 13/04/08 : (29w) Since the exchange sequence ending on move 27, I had thought that silver’s attack on the eastern wing would easily be quicker than a gold attack on the c6 quadrant. But I toyed a bit with an E+H around c6 with the plan window today, and felt like it was envisionnable. Admittedly silver can bring back his phant to defense at the cost of the extra rabbit and go for a deadly horse hostage, or go for the goal attack around f3, but gold’s position does not seem this hopeless (in particular, gold’s eastern goal defense structure is quite sound, with the unadvanced three rabbits and a h2 cat working nicely against rabbits). I’m completely unable to devise a plan for defense (29w rb3e Db4s Ec4e Ha4e 29b dg5s dg4s rf8s rg6s 30w H to e5 Cg2e to try for a PMertens’ style horse crossing does not seem to work. 30b d to f2 r to g3, and none of the horse moves seem playable). I decided for 29w rb3e Db4s Ec4e Dd2e instead of a Horse step, as after 29b dg5s dg4s rf8s rg6s, I can lauch the c6 attack with 30w Ed4n hd6e Ed5n Cg2e, threatening to capture immediately on c6, while 29w rb3e Db4s Ec4e Ha4e 29b dg5s dg4s rf8s rg6s 30w Ed4n hd6e Ed5n Cg2e allows 30b dg3s dg2e rg5ss. After 29w rb3e Db4s Ec4e Dd2e 29b dg5s dg4s rf8s rg6s 30w Ed4n hd6e Ed5n Cg2e 30b rb8ss dg3 to f2 I can play H to b6 r to b5. It does not seem very strong, but rabbit advance along the a-file might make a horse hostage prospect more difficult. Now silver might play a horse step towards the western wing, to avoid any prospect of c6v attack, which might be the explanation of the horse step on 27b, although I’d certainly not play it. 29b dg5ss rg6ss seems interesting, and 29b dg5ss Cg2e dg3s even more. Then 30w E to g3, 30b h to c4 and e to e3 seems ok for silver. 30w De2n C to g3 Rf1n isn’t very exciting either for gold. In some lines I can get (or rather silver can get) an exchange of drr for H, giving a DR for h position. This is certainly good for silver, but I’m not sure to which extent. With less pieces on the board the advantage of having the strongest piece decreases a bit, so maybe it would be par for this position, although not at all thrilling for me. 26/04/08 : (30w) Ok, the Mob played my favorite move this time. As far as I recall, I only considered it after playing my move :( But well, there was no way to avoid it I guess. I can only see 2 moves now ; either E to g3 or 30w De2n C to g3 Rf1n. After the former and silver covers f3 and c3, the position is a bit dealocked, with my horse as the strongest available piece. I would need to get some play with HDRs on the western wing before silver gets a grip on f3 and rotates the phant. I would seem doable, but silver has the choice to get the phant back to west-north quadrant at any time, exchanging the dog for capture prospects of whatever gold pieces are there (at least a Horse). All in all it seems hardly playable. Silver has the opportunity to make a b7 blockade to prevent my pieces from getting to c7 through b7, which means I would need to leave a Horse on b6 to create play, allowing this phant retreat. The other move seems more ok than I thought first. 30b C to g5 doesn’t seem to work, as silver would need to abandon the rc3. So silver’s move would need to be a quiet one (D to e5 yields nothing it seems), made out of ce7e, rf7s, rh7s(sss), dg2n, dg2e, hd6w(w). But as long as I can keep control over f3 without the phant and prevent rabbits from sneaking through h-file, there seems to be no immediate danger. Seems good enough. Reread quickly what I’ve written so far. Guess I’d better reorganize it in a linear analysis and delete the silly comments such as this one :) I recall I’d have sacrificed the advanced rabbit without hesitation as silver a few moves ago to go directly for the e+d attack. I guess I am (frequently) misjudging this kind of situation, and not weighting enough material compared to activity. 22/05/08 : (31w) This is interesting. Rather than advancing on the eastern wing as I would have done they bring the horse to contest the c3 trap. Seems much better indeed. I cannot afford to wait, as silver has a much easier task to slowly improve his position while I’m a bit cramped. The E+H around c6 does not seem to work, for instance 31w H to b6 Ed4n 31b dd7s cc7ss rc8s. The horse crossing manoeuver seems like the more logical and interesting manoeuver for me. I’d love to have the Horse on the eastern side. After 31w H to d5 the only move is 31b D to f4 I think. 31b h to b3 x allows me to play 32w H to e4 R to d2, and 32b e to c2 gives noting, for instance 33w D to d2 H to g4. After 31b D to f4 I’m still in trouble although not materially behind any more, and I’ve got plenty of options. 32w E to e6 H to e5, where 32b H to f6, g5 or d6 are possible. If on d6, Hd6n Ee6w seems ok for me. On g5, D to e4 seems interesting. On f6 maybe D to e4 as well. I can also play 32w H to c5 E to d6 x, envisionning to exchange D for c, with prospects of my Horse finally crossing to the eastern side. 32w H to e6 E to e5 is possible as well. None of these moves are really great for me, and I’m not sure which is best, but I feel like there should be a better opportunity then than after a more peaceful 31w. 26-27-28/05/08 : (32w) Ok, quick move by the Mob. I guess they had agreed on this response before hand. And this is not the move I had considered the « only move » :-) This might well be the point where my evaluation of the position switches from « in serious trouble » to « losing ». I had thought to answer this 31b with 32w Rc1 to d2 H to e4, contemplating 32b H to e5 33w h to b4 33b Hx 34w hx and then 34b c to g5 fails to 35w E to f4 D sidesteps. Also 32b e to c2 33w H to g4 Es x seemed to be fine for me. I had missed 32b De3e ed3e rc3e dd7s, but in the end it does not seem as strong as I first thought. 33w He4e Ed4w rd3n Rd2n seems to hold its own pretty well (while many other plausible seem to fail badly). However 32b De3e ed3e Cg3n dg2n hurts a lot. The same applies to 32w H to e4 Cc2e Rc1n. And 32w Cc2e H to g5, runs into 32b De3n ed3e Rf1w dg2w or 32b De3s ed3e Rf1s dg2w, just like 32w Ed4w H to g5. And 32w Ed4w H to f4 fails to 32b D to e5. 29/05/08 : (32w) Seems like I have only odd looking moves left. But craizily enough, 32w H to f3 might work. 32b cx 33w Ed4w rd3n Rc2w Hf3s seems to get the piece back. There is no way to save the dog it seems. 33b h to e3 is the most logical idea but does not seem to work : if the D is pushed to f3, then 34w rd4e Ec4e Ed4s Df3n or 34w Da3e Ec4s Ec3e Df3n trap the horse, and if the D is pushed to e4, then 34w rd4e Ec4e Ed4s Rc1e (34w rd4e Ec4e Ed4s Df3n fails to e to e2 he3n, and this Rc1e step seems mandatory to achieve capture on next turn after 34b rg6 to f4 rd5s). So instead 33b D to a5 seems best. I can get D for cr but I’m quite in trouble with a dog almost hostaged and some trouble around c3 for trap and goal defense. (Also 32b r to d2 is possible) 12/06/08 : (34w) missed this 33b :-( Might be stronger than D to a5, I have hard time to assess. If I flip the r to b4 or c5 then D to a5 is much stronger than on previous move. I can’t h to a3 either due to r to c2, so it seems I can’t but try 34w h to b2. then 34b D to f3 r to d2 35w Rg1 to d1 Df3n 35b ee3w Re2n d to c4 36w D to e2 36b r to c2 37w dx I can’t see an immediate win for silver there, but the advantage seems quite big for silver with a grip on the south-western quadrant and big goal threats. But I can’t see anything better. Alternatively 35w Df3n Rc1e Rg1 to e1 allows 35b ee3w d to c3. 20/06/08 : (35w) I didn’t look at this 34b either. Not sure it is as strong as the logical one though. The first move that springs to mind 35w D to d4 Re2w seems to work very well. As no other move seem interesting, I play it fast. After both 35b e to e2 x x and 35b H to f1 the tactical fight seems to work ok for me. 22/06/08 : (35b) I feared after playing the move that I had not analysed moves threatening to play D to c5 on 36b, but actually I think I had, my second dog should reach b6 in time. I read Karl’s draft this week-end, and he mentions the 28b position, wondering about the respective values of clinging to the rabbit and going for the ed attack directly. He told me about the 3-way tie, so it seems everyone is asking oneself this same question :) I’m surprised to hear he’d rather have played another 29b after seeing the game course, while I’ve been getting the converse opinion shift. 26/07/08 : (36w) Actually the tactical fight didn’t seem to work that well for me after the Mob’s game move, 35b H to f1. 36w Dx Hf1w 36b cx rb5 to c4 is a hard blow, as silver gets out of it with cc for D, with good goal attack prospects on my weak eastern side. Most moves based on defending f3 with rabbits on f4/e3 turn out just as bad, as silver will quickly manage to get hold of f4. 36w dx E to e3 looks no good either after the rc2 capture, as problems around f3 are not solved (and material is crr for D). I thought that my Dog was tied to d4, otherwise silver would defend c3 with r d5 to d3, or (if I put a R on d3) pushing this rabbit to c3 for a tactical save. But actually playing R to e3 xx, planning to play D to f4 and R to d4 is enough, as f3 remains under control thanks to the dog, and the rd5 is blocked by the Rd4. So my move seems fine, I could find no good answer for silver. I’m sure the Mob will come up with something though. 26/08/08 : (38w) I guess I did not consider very seriously this 37b, yet it seems to lead to a cdr for H position, which is very good for silver materially. And I have no dog hostage prospects, so it seems that the game finally settled to a clear advantage for silver in a quiet position. I cannot see anything else than 38w H to g3 (with d to g2) 38b dx dc5n e to f4 39w hx and then 39b H to g4 40w rh5n Ch3n Hg4s Ch4s or 39b H to f3 with a clear advantage for silver in both cases. I guess I needed a more forceful 37w to stay in the game. 01/09/08 : (39w) The Mob might consider using a dg2n instead of a dc5n step. After 39w hx (E to c4) 39b H to g4 dg2n 40w dx (E to d3) 40b rx x 40w Ed3e Ch3n, silver obtains a H hostage and a rabbit for a dog, which I don’t think is better than simply keeping the cdr for H advantage, but I might have missed a tactical point. I fear I haven't written down notes after this point, which means they finish on a wrong statement ... well :) |
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Title: Re: Post-Mortem Post by The_Jeh on Oct 30th, 2008, 10:51am I guess Fritz isn't the only one writing a book. :) Thanks for the extensive comments. They're great. Here are the time stats for the game, just for the record: Start date: April 12, 2007 16:45:54 End Date: October 30, 2008 15:33:36 Game Duration: 566 days, 22hours, 47 minutes, 42 seconds Chessandgo Average Move Time: 8194.81 minutes The Mob Average Move Time: 9552.21 minutes |
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Title: Re: Post-Mortem Post by Fritzlein on Oct 30th, 2008, 1:16pm I'm surprised the Mob's average move time was only 6.63 days. I would have thought it would be pegged at 7 days. I guess I forgot about times we moved with a full reserve. Jean, your notes are a wonderful service to the Mob. This will certainly inspire me to record at least some thoughts for each move if I am the One. I can't wait to replay the game alongside your notes, and perhaps post some reactions. on 10/30/08 at 08:15:09, Soter wrote:
I heartily second this sentiment. Ron was an excellent Mob coordinator. His participation and judgment was indispensable to the success of the Mob. |
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Title: Re: Post-Mortem Post by Fritzlein on Oct 30th, 2008, 1:28pm on 10/30/08 at 10:51:17, The_Jeh wrote:
You are joking, but if Arimaa is a commercial success, a linear retelling of this game could definitely be published. There is certainly enough source material here waiting for someone to clean it up, make it coherent, and turn it into something instructive. If Jean doesn't come through with his other book, we will have to pressure him for this one. |
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Title: Re: Post-Mortem Post by Adanac on Oct 30th, 2008, 1:52pm on 10/30/08 at 13:16:39, Fritzlein wrote:
Congrats to The Mob! Though I didn't participate in The Mob I did enjoy following the game and I'll be quite interested to read through Jean's thoughts. This may be too cumbersome, but perhaps The One could have an adjutant (assistant). After completing his (or her) analysis the player e-mails his proposed move to the adjutant along with a full explanation/analysis. Advantages: 1. Thorough analysis from The One due to the e-mail correspondence sent to the adjutant (this is the real reason I'm suggesting the idea). 2. Improves game quality by reducing the chances of a catastrophic blunder (assuming the adjutant notices ;)). Fortunately, the first game was very high quality with no blatant blunders by either side. 3. In the extreme case of a player being swamped by real-life responsibilities and being unable to analyze a move, the adjutant can help out with the analysis. Disadvantages: 1. The player may find it very tedious to send out a full analysis to the adjutant before every move. 2. Catastrophic blunders might become more likely if the player and adjutant get careless, each thinking the other will do the analysis. |
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Title: Re: Post-Mortem Post by Fritzlein on Oct 30th, 2008, 4:58pm on 10/30/08 at 10:17:38, chessandgo wrote:
It's a hoot for me to go back and re-read my own comments during the opening. At the time this game started I was still a committed lone-elephant player, and I was arguing against letting our horse be taken hostage by your elephant. Now I regularly advance my horses and invite them to be taken hostage. So much can change in a year and a half. But it is even funnier that you were afraid to follow your postal game against 99of9, because he also was afraid of following it, as we see here: on 04/20/07 at 07:57:22, 99of9 wrote:
So apparently neither of you liked what happened next in that game. :P But anyway the Mob did not decentralize its camel on 3s like 99of9 had done, so the continuation was significantly different already before move 4. For the Mob to have its camel on e7 instead of f7 makes a palpable difference in fending off any Gold E-H attack against the c6-trap. I recall being unhappy about the Mob's choice to pull out your camel on 4s. I still think we should have played against your horse, since our threat to your camel was lame and actually weakend our threat to your horse. It's not like we could frame both your horse and your camel. But as you point out, your 5g gave back the time we had wasted with 4s, so no matter. I assume what you are regretting about 5g is not charging up the a-file with your horse to pull a rabbit, right? Quote:
I was astonished that you were so unwilling to commit to a multi-piece attack, especially given what you had done to me in our 2007 Postal Mixer game. Since swarming had worked for you there, I fully expected a repeat, not a dance with you retreating on 6g and 7g, advancing on 8g, and retreating again on 9g and 10g. I think by 10s we have certainly neutralized any advantage you might have had as gold, and I think the Mob actually stands a hair better. Quote:
Yep, I was still all lone-elephant all the time, so it sure wasn't me thinking up crazy horse advances. That's the power of the Mob: many different styles can be combined. Quote:
I felt that if you had ended 13g with your elephant on c4 instead of b5, it would have been more precise, because it would have prevented our 13s. After your actual 13g, I felt we were clearly a little bit ahead, for the reason you give: Quote:
More to follow. |
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Title: Re: Post-Mortem Post by 99of9 on Oct 30th, 2008, 5:58pm on 10/30/08 at 16:58:39, Fritzlein wrote:
It would be interesting to see a list of the first originators of the moves we actually played. No doubt many came from Fritz, but I agree that we mixed quite a few styles in this game. |
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Title: Re: Post-Mortem Post by RonWeasley on Oct 31st, 2008, 3:54am on 10/30/08 at 17:58:34, 99of9 wrote:
This would be interesting. Another important dimension that would not be apparent, though, is that moves that got proposed and refuted added clarity to our collective understanding. I think this activity was TheMob's greatest strength. |
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Title: Re: Post-Mortem Post by Fritzlein on Oct 31st, 2008, 6:30pm Quote:
We were very aware that if both elephants must go to the other wing our advantage becomes a disadvantage, so we wanted to be sure that our threat was so strong you could not afford to play on the other wing. Unfortunately, I think the Mob displayed a collective elephant fixation. Since it is often good to move the elephant, it is easy to fail to consider moves that don't move the elephant. Yes, our threat to your horse forced your elephant to scurry back, but our camel was not well-supported in the aftermath. For several moves to follow in the game I felt that our advanced camel was a little bit too vulnerable, and that even one more advanced piece would have made it much stronger. In hindsight it occurred to me that 14b dd8s dd7s md5w hh6w could have been a better option for the Mob. It seems sufficiently threatening that you can't ignore the Mob's western threats while generating your own attack in the east; there is too much chance that we get something hostage with our camel while elephant arrives back east to save whatever you happen to be threatening. And the two extra steps of dog advance make our forward camel much more comfortable. We already know that a swarm for us may be in the offing, so we should already be thinking about advancing moves. But who knows? Perhaps there was a powerful reply that I have overlooked because we didn't even discuss any non-elephant move at the time, never mind this particular one. Quote:
I agree that the Mob won the opening up to there. Your 16w did, however, prove that our elephant needed to be on d3. Going back to 13b, I realized that our position was not as powerful as I had thought, because our elephant didn't totally want to be on c4, so our gain of time by escaping our rabbit to a4 was not as large a victory as I had thought. On 16b, moving our elephant to d3 while pushing back your camel seems nearly forced, but with our elephant committed forward it exposed the loneliness of our camel. If our dog had been on d6, your 17g threat to our camel would not have been possible. grrr... Quote:
How interesting. We were very hot to move the camel: only one proposed move contemplated not moving it. Certainly nobody proposed using the b8-rabbit to defend c6. I think nowadays I might take a longer look a possible dual-purpose advance (defending the trap but also getting a rabbit ready to swarm). I think I was blinded, not so much by fear that you would capture our camel, but by feeling that our camel simply must threaten your b3-horse if the Mob is going to have an advantage. I didn't want our camel in the east, not even safe in the east, because it has a job to do in the west. But I guess I was too focused on saving our framed rabbit as opposed to threatening your exposed dog. Your elephant would have some difficulty getting our camel hostage, and might even give up the dog hostage for trying. On the other hand, I can imagine giving up our camel hostage in the east and only getting a D for R gain in the west. Certainly this line depends on tactics. I wonder whether we might have voted for your 17b if you had proposed it. :) |
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Title: Re: Post-Mortem Post by Fritzlein on Nov 1st, 2008, 1:49am I wonder whether the Mob suffered from groupthink (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink) to some extent, avoiding conflict and dissension in search of consensus and cohesiveness. The Mob can gain an advantage from consensus, namely moving more quickly under time pressure, but must suffer when there is less variety of thought, i.e. fewer strategies proposed and members being too willing to go along with what others proposed. In reviewing the comments, I notice that consensus voice votes became more and more prevalent later in the game, and even earlier in the game our dissension was sometimes confined within very narrow bounds. I'm curious how other Mob members view this in retrospect. Were we sufficiently unruly? |
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