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        Team Games >> 2009 One vs TheMob >> Move 1
        
(Message started by: The_Jeh on Nov 18th, 2008, 6:57pm)
Title: Move 1
Post by The_Jeh on Nov 18th, 2008, 6:57pm
Assuming we play gold, what setup should we employ? Be assured that Fritz is prepared to play his off-balanced setup in response to most conventional gold setups. Should we go on a limb and play off-balanced before him? For example:

R M D E H D H R
R R R C C R R R

or

R M R E H R H R
R C R D D R C R
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by jdb on Nov 18th, 2008, 7:49pm
In the previous mob game, in the early moves, there was some discussion about the value of keeping the camel in the middle. That way if a horse attack was launched on a trap, the camel could come over to defend.

If we decide to place the camel on the wing, we need to have a plan to deal with at least two different strategic replies.

What happens if  the opponent launched an EH attack on the opposite side of the board?

What happens in the opponent sends his E after the camel on the edge of the board? Its a lot easier to take the camel hostage when its on the edge of the board compared to the middle.

On the other hand, its easier to launch an attack with the camel on the wing.
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by 99of9 on Nov 18th, 2008, 9:06pm
Off-balance is much riskier for gold than it is for silver, because the silver player gets a chance to start exploiting our imbalance during their setup.  For example, if we put the camel on b2, Fritz can put his elephant directly opposite on b7 (and his horses far away).

If we are playing gold, I favour a roughly symmetrical setup of some kind.
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by Adanac on Nov 19th, 2008, 12:07am
I agree with 99of9.   A simple symmetrical setup is fine.  I like 4 rabbits on each row, but am also OK with the "99of9" setup.
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by UruramTururam on Nov 19th, 2008, 1:37am
If Fritz wants to decentralize his camel let him do so...

My idea - if in the early game the main task of the camel is avoiding opposing elephant ;) let's experiment with a setup like this:

R H C D E C H R
R R R D M R R R
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by chessandgo on Nov 19th, 2008, 1:46am
I agree with Adanac as well. I'm not convinced by camel on the edge as silver, so I'd certainly advise against decentralized caMel as gold :)

I'm fine with any kind of balanced "99of9-type" setup with any mixture of C,D or R behind traps. It seems very few other players use something like my favorite

R H C E M C H R
R R R D  R R D R

as a setup, so well :)

Ururam, I think the main task of the CaMel in the opening is not to avoid being taken hostage, but to prevent enemy horses from being activated. So leaving the caMel on last row leaves silver with free hands to attack with his horses, be it for e E+H attack or just to pull rabbits on the side.

Jean
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by Soter on Nov 19th, 2008, 6:09am
My 0.02 $: I like classic 99 configuration with all its variants (I have a very slight preference for putting cats behind traps ), but ideally I'd choose either Fritzlein's  "four rabbits" setup or Jean's proposal; both seem strong, versatile and fresh.
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by UruramTururam on Nov 20th, 2008, 7:09am
Chessandgo - that was my " ;)" after "if"...

Yet if One vs Mob games should be the base for building the theory of Arimaa - as they are very well documented ones I think we should experiment and not play the most common way from the beginning. The last proposal by Chessandgo looks promissing for example.
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by Adanac on Nov 20th, 2008, 8:49am

on 11/20/08 at 07:09:17, UruramTururam wrote:
Yet if One vs Mob games should be the base for building the theory of Arimaa - as they are very well documented ones I think we should experiment and not play the most common way from the beginning. The last proposal by Chessandgo looks promissing for example.


Yes, we should definitely seize the opportunity to expand our understanding of opening theory.  Since Fritzlein will likely experiment with 2 horses on one side and a decentralized camel on the other, I don't think we'll need to do anything very unorthodox in our setup.  A classical, balanced opening is probably our best bet with gold against an unbalanced silver setup.   I'll vote for Chessandgo's opening setup.  It adds a little twist to the standard position but doesn't leave any weaknesses in our position.

R H C E M C H R
R R R D  R R D R
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by chessandgo on Nov 20th, 2008, 12:24pm

on 11/20/08 at 07:09:17, UruramTururam wrote:
Chessandgo - that was my " ;)" after "if"...


Ok, please forgive a guy with a laborious sense of humour :)
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by RonWeasley on Nov 21st, 2008, 5:21am
The C&G or 99 startup is fine with me.  I like M in the center as defense of the e-h and to follow up our own E-H, whichever happens first.
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by chessandgo on Nov 21st, 2008, 6:21am
Oh, by the way, as far as the

R H C
R D R

setup is concerned, there is also the

D H C
R R R

setup, with the same idea of having a Dog ready to replace the Horse should it go away to attack. This latter setup prevents an a-file rabbitpull (but has the drawback of not having a rabbit ready to advance on this side, for goal threat or to unfreeze a threatened piece). I guess as Karl seems not to be pulling rabbits anymore, the first is better than the second, but if we wanted to be ready for a rabbit pulling contest, the second setup would be interesting.
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by arimaa_master on Nov 21st, 2008, 7:05am
I prefer 99of9 setup with one cat and one dog behind the traps.

Firstly it is rock solid and secondly we (as a Mob team) already won once with this setup :))
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by woh on Nov 23rd, 2008, 1:46pm

on 11/21/08 at 07:05:28, arimaa_master wrote:
I prefer 99of9 setup with one cat and one dog behind the traps.


Me too.

My standard setup as gold is
R H C E M D H R
R R R  D C R R R
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by RonWeasley on Nov 25th, 2008, 5:37am
I removed Fritzlein from the voting list.

chessandgo, please send an e-mail to nbent@groupw.com so I can add you to the voting list.  This goes for anyone else who wants to vote.

I considered removing "inactive" players from the voting list so that we would stop spamming them.  I decided not to.  Maybe they would appreciate being informed about the new game and come back.  I think if anyone wants to be removed from the voting list, they could simply contact this forum.

At the end of last game, about 8 to 10 of the 22 players on the list were active voters.  I plan to begin voting on Move 1 on December 1.
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by Tachyon on Nov 28th, 2008, 12:57am
Hi Ron ...can you add me to the voting list too pls. I would like to contribute to this game when I can
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by RonWeasley on Nov 28th, 2008, 8:24am

on 11/28/08 at 00:57:33, Tachyon wrote:
Hi Ron ...can you add me to the voting list too pls. I would like to contribute to this game when I can


Yes, Tachyon.  Please send me an e-mail at nbent@groupw.com so that I can see your e-mail address.
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 1st, 2008, 1:29pm
Voting has started.  There are 25 registered mobsters.  If you didn't get an e-mail directing you to the voting site, please let me know.   Mobsters can add or drop at any point in the game.  Adanac got his ballot late because I spelled his middle initial wrong (Hint:  It's a letter from the pirate alphabet).  Cornell notified me of this fact.
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by warren on Dec 1st, 2008, 8:30pm
What do "standard Fritz" and "standard 99" in the ballot options mean?
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by Janzert on Dec 2nd, 2008, 1:11am
Standard 99

R H . E M . H R
R R R . . R R R


Standard Fritz

R H R E M R H R
R . R . . R . R


With the minor pieces filled in as described. At least I believe that's what is meant.

Janzert
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 2nd, 2008, 6:00am
Yes.  That is what I meant.
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 4th, 2008, 6:08am
The standard C&G setup wins over the standard 99of9 by 8-5.  Fritzlein will think TheMob is swooning to C&G.

For the record:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1.      2.      3.      4.      5.      6.      7.      8.      9.      10.      11.      12.      13.      14.      15.      16.      17.
1. C&G 1 - Fwd Row: R H C E M C H R Back Row: R R R D R R D R                                                                      -       8      8      8      8      7      7      8      8      8       9       9       9       9       9       9       10
2. Standard 99of9 1 - cats back                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               5      -       6      6      7      7      9      9      8      9       12      11      11      11      11      10      12
3. Standard 99of9 4 - D behind E, C behind M, other C on E side                                                     4      6      -       6      5      5      6      8      8      9       11      10      10      11      10      10      11
4. Standard 99of9 5 - C behind E, D behind M, other D on E side                                                     5      6      1      -       6      4      7      9      8      9       12      11      11      12      11      11      12
5. Standard 99of9 2 - dogs back                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    4      3      4      4      -       6      7      8      8      9       11      11      11      11      10      9       11
6. Standard 99of9 3 - D behind E, C behind M, other D on E side                                                              5      5      3      4      5      -       5      8      8      9       10      9       9       10      10      10      10
7. Standard 99of9 6 - C behind E, D behind M, other C on E side                                                                    5      3      1      2      3      4      -       7      7      8       10      9       8       10      10      8       9
8. C&G 2 - Fwd Row: R H C E M C H D Back Row: R R R D R R R R                                                                           1      3      3      3      3      3      4      -       6      7       7       7       8       8       9       9       9
9. Standard Fritz 1 - Cats behind E M                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2      5      5      5      5      5      6      4      -       5       6       6       8       8       10      9       10
10. Standard Fritz 2 - Dogs behind E M                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2      4      3      3      3      4      5      3      3      -        5       4       5       6       9       8       10
11. Standard Fritz 4 - D behind E, C behind M, other C on E side                                                                        0      1      1      1      1      2      2      2      2      3       -        4       3       3       6       5       7
12. Standard Fritz 5 - C behind E, D behind M, other D on E side                                                              0      2      2      2      1      3      3      1      2      4       1       -        4       3       7       6       8
13. Standard Fritz 3 - D behind E, C behind M, other D on E side                                                    0      2      2      2      1      3      2      1      1      3       3       2       -        4       8       6       8
14. Standard Fritz 6 - C behind E, D behind M, other C on E side                                                    0      2      1      1      1      1      2      1      1      2       2       3       2       -        6       5       7
15. UT Safe Camel - Fwd Row: R H C D E C H R Back Row: R R R D M R R R                     1      2      2      2      2      1      2      1      1      2       3       3       2       2       -        5       5
16. Wing Camel 99 - Fwd Row: R M D E H D H R Back Row: R R R C C R R R                1      2      2      2      2      1      4      1      2      3       5       4       4       4       4       -        6
17. Wing Camel Fritz - Fwd Row: R M R E H R H R Back Row: R C R D D R C R        0      1      1      1      1      1      2      1      1      1       3       2       1       2       4       2       -
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by UruramTururam on Dec 5th, 2008, 7:31am
Interesting result:

1) Fritz and 99 moves form clear groups.
2) The winning move wins with all other ones in pairs.
3) The decentralized camel is found worse that the camel in the back row.
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by warren on Dec 6th, 2008, 8:53am
To view the mob game: http://arimaa.com/arimaa/java/ys/ms4/v5/f2_sit.pl?sid=2795240489&grid=3
Title: Re: Move 1
Post by IdahoEv on Dec 9th, 2008, 2:45pm

on 11/25/08 at 05:37:44, RonWeasley wrote:
I considered removing "inactive" players from the voting list so that we would stop spamming them.  I decided not to.  Maybe they would appreciate being informed about the new game and come back.


For my part, I appreciate being left on the list.   I didn't vote very often last time because I just didn't have the time to read the full thread and do it justice, but for the occasions where I do have time it's nice to have the option.

And the one message per two weeks is really no burden.


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