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        Team Games >> 2009 One vs TheMob >> Move 4
        
(Message started by: NIC1138 on Jan 10^th, 2009, 3:45pm)

Title: Move 4
Post by NIC1138 on Jan 10^th, 2009, 3:45pm

Fritzlein has played, e->d3 and camel south.

I propose move E south, and pull the western rabbit, just to start the arguing. ;)

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by Adanac on Jan 10^th, 2009, 7:27pm

on 01/10/09 at 15:45:40, NIC1138 wrote:

Fritzlein has played, e->d3 and camel south.

I propose move E south, and pull the western rabbit, just to start the arguing. ;)

Keep in mind that he's threatening both of our cats though. After pulling the rabbit, we can use the 4th step to move either a rabbit or cat to e2. I'd much prefer the cat on e2 for one very obvious reason ;)

However, I think we should delay the rabbit pull for one move while we improve our defences. Something like
C->b3, M->c2, C->e2. I'm really interested to hear some better proposals as I'm not convinced my suggestion is very strong at all.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by arimaa_master on Jan 11^th, 2009, 5:23am

Very interesting position. However I dunno what to play.

Maybe 4g Cf2w Ed5w Ha5n Ra2e (preventing EH attack and preparing our possible EH attack or rabbit pull).

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by jdb on Jan 11^th, 2009, 5:47am

I am surprised silver advanced his camel.

4g E->g5 C->e2

If silver tries h->b3 the tactics work out in gold's favour.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by warren on Jan 12^th, 2009, 7:21am

on 01/11/09 at 05:47:44, jdb wrote:

I am surprised silver advanced his camel.

4g E->g5 C->e2

If silver tries h->b3 the tactics work out in gold's favour.

After 4s h->b3 c->g7 it seems to me that we get a camel hostage but he gets an eh attack and a cat. That does not seem like a good trade for us. Can you post the continuation you say works out in our favor?

Update: I currently like Adanac's 4g C->b3, M->c2, C->e2 best. Long-term we want our camel in the west against his pair of horses and our elephant in the east against his camel. After that move the only weakness I see in our position is our excessively advanced cat, but we'll be able to fix that before he gets a chance to exploit it I think.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by UruramTururam on Jan 12^th, 2009, 9:57am

on 01/11/09 at 05:47:44, jdb wrote:

I am surprised silver advanced his camel.

He may consider EM attack...

I like the Arimaa_master's proposal, but what will we do after a possible camel charge?

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by chessandgo on Jan 12^th, 2009, 10:10am

Funny I hadn't noticed it before, but our Dg1 became severely misplaced when Karl put his camel on g7 on move 1, as our g-file Horse is likely not going anywhere.

Seems like the game got very sharp already. I understand better Adanac's prediction of m to g3 h to b3 now :) I think this is the reason why Fritzl played this camel step, jdb. Our E might have hard time preventing h to b3 if we go after his camel.

Ra2e does not seem to be a candidate step, as we want our camel on western side, and currently its path would be through c2, meaning we might want to use the b2 square for our Cc2 very soon.

Ideally (phantasmatically ^^) we would like to make sure that our camel can hold the western wing without the help of the phant to neutralize the threats of his mg6 advancing towards g3 (thanks to our free phant). We would then be able to decide between going after his camel with our phant or going after an E+H attack around c6 (H to a6, E to c5, then H to b6 in one move with a hb6 pull with the phant), or pulling the ra7 with our a-file Horse. For instance, if you could magically jump with our M to b3, we'd be in perfect shape.

Cf2w alone is interesting, something I'd never play, as I hate not controlling a hometrap, but maybe it's the right way to deal with the position.

jdb, I don't get either how E to g5 C to e2 could work. after h to b3, if we flip the camel then silver captures a Cat and threatens to capture our M.

There are a lot of possibilities to defend our two hometraps. For the f3 trap, we can simply Hg2n, obliviously to an e1 rabbitpull. We can simply Cf2w, but also Cf2w Rf1n, or even Cf2w Hg2w (putting a big piece next to the trap, which might prove bad tactically should silver go for h to b3/m to g3, but it has the advantage of getting our H further away from the camel, and additionnally we still have a dog to cover g3 next, finally it allows the Dg1 to hope coming into play soon. On the other hand having a Horse on g-file ensure that silver's camel will not cross to the western side, not sure whether this is relevant).

For the b3 square a Cf2w step also takes care of the 1-move capture threat, and we also have to consider the h to b3 threat. Ed5w would prevent it at least for this move, and there is also a cute step: Ra2n. The idea being that h to b3 is met by Cc2ww Md2ww. This advanced rabbit could turn into a strength if we go for an attacking game, not a rabbitpulling one. As it stands h to b2 would be met by E to c4 Cc2n Md2w.

As for the whole move, at first sight 4w Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5w seems cute, threatening 5w Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e. Many many moves are possible, any combination protecting both traps and including either an Ed5w or an Ra2n or Cc2wn-Md2w step(s), including Re1n or Hg2n actually ... we're going to have a zillion moves to decide between I fear :-)

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by Adanac on Jan 12^th, 2009, 11:34am

on 01/12/09 at 10:10:52, chessandgo wrote:

jdb, I don't get either how E to g5 C to e2 could work. after h to b3, if we flip the camel then silver captures a Cat and threatens to capture our M.

At first I didn't like this move, but things could get really exciting if we play jdb's move:

4g E to g5 (jdb's suggestion)
4s Fritzlein attacks the southwest trap with h->b3
5g We flip the camel to g4
5s The c2 cat is captured, then e->e3 to protect camel.
6g Our camel slides to b2 and we threaten 2 pieces in our home traps, plus our horse will soon takeover the northwest trap - I like it!

Of course, Fritzlein will see this and play a different 4s - possibly sliding his camel west towards our horse. Not good. It's an interesting line though.

I'm at work (no board here, unfortunately :( ), but I'm interested to read the rest of C&G's long analysis tonight.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by Adanac on Jan 12^th, 2009, 8:22pm

on 01/12/09 at 10:10:52, chessandgo wrote:

As for the whole move, at first sight 4w Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5w seems cute, threatening 5w Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e. Many many moves are possible, any combination protecting both traps and including either an Ed5w or an Ra2n or Cc2wn-Md2w step(s), including Re1n or Hg2n actually ... we're going to have a zillion moves to decide between I fear :-)

After 4g Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5w Fritz might play 4s hd7s hd6w hb6s hc6w which would temporarily block our attacking plan while potentially advancing another silver attacker to the southwest. But I think we should be okay in the southwest thanks to our camel. Even if we just place our cat on b3 and camel on c2 on move 5, that should be enough to stop Fritzlein's attack.

Yes there will be a lot of options to vote on this turn ;D We should probably do some long-term planning to make our short-term tactical decisions easier. Here's my train of thought:

1. Are we still going to pull a rabbit with the a5 horse, or give up that idea?

2. Should we try to attack the c6 trap?

3. How should we defend the f3 trap -- with a horse on f2 and dog on g3 or vice versa...or some other defence?

4. If we move the cat to b3 and camel to c2, is that enough to hold against an E+H attack by silver?

5. What should we do with our elephant? Harass the camel or stay in the west?

6. Other ideas...

My opinions

1. This game could get very complicated soon and rabbit-pulling might turn out to be a waste of time, even counter-productive.

2. I still like the idea of an E+H attack at the c6 trap. It would certainly justify our opening moves!

3. I'd prefer to have the horse on g3, dog on f2 -- but the dog will be stuck on g1 for the immediate future in my proposed move below. If Fritzlein re-arranges his pieces and gets a horse on the east side several moves down the road, we will be happy that we put our stronger piece on the g3 square. The negative is that our horse becomes a tempting target for that silver camel :-/

4. A cat on b3 and camel on c2 seems to be a sufficient defence for now. Fritz would need more than 2 pieces to attack the c3 trap and that's not a possibility right now. If the silver horse pushes the cat down to b2 then we would play Ra2n Cb2w Mc2w and gain the upper hand.

5. I think our elephant should try to eventually get to d6, blocking the silver camel away from the west side and working towards an E+H attack. It might have to drag the silver horse away from b6 first, before later moving to d6. My worry is that by the time we drag the defending horse away from b6, Fritz will be able to get his camel into the west to thwart our attack.

6. ???

My proposed move is 4g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hg2n

I liked jdb's proposal (E->g5, C->e2) but my worry is that the silver camel will slide over to d6 if we place our elephant on g5. Then our position looks kind of scattered with pieces all over the place. It works better if Fritz ignores the camel and charges the horse to b3 but I doubt he would do that :o

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by chessandgo on Jan 13^th, 2009, 4:55am

on 01/12/09 at 11:34:01, Adanac wrote:

There is no need for silver to cover f3 in your 5s as gold's M is threatened. 5s hb3e hc3n Cc2n Cc3x x would be enough for silver already unless I'm misremembering the position.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by chessandgo on Jan 13^th, 2009, 5:06am

on 01/12/09 at 20:22:12, Adanac wrote:

After 4g Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5w 4s hd7s hd6w hb6s hc6w bringing our camel to b3 in the next two moves could be deadly, unless silver manages to create a big fight with his camel on eastern side, but even that might not be enough.

I like your answers to 1. and 2. For 3. we might also want to postpone deciding it by playing a mere Cf2w step, like 4g Cf2w Ha6n Ec5w Ra2n. I agree with your 4., and your 4g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hg2n proposal indeed looks interesting. Don't you mind our Re1 being pulled then? For 4., actually as long as our phant is available for c3 defense it should be enough. For 5. I'd say that the best case would be if our phant could remain centralized to neutralize charges on both sides from silver. The worry that silver should cross over with his camel top western side does not seem a frightening prospect for the moment, it would mean he needs to play 3 horse steps to get an hg6 plus a large number of camel steps to get within reach of the western side, meaning he'd be the one who'd lose the more time with respect to his opening setup.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by arimaa_master on Jan 13^th, 2009, 6:08am

on 01/11/09 at 05:47:44, jdb wrote:

I am surprised silver advanced his camel.

4g E->g5 C->e2

If silver tries h->b3 the tactics work out in gold's favour.

I think that this move is met by c->g7 m->d6. And we are left with no good position.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by arimaa_master on Jan 13^th, 2009, 6:12am

on 01/12/09 at 09:57:33, UruramTururam wrote:

He may consider EM attack...

I like the Arimaa_master's proposal, but what will we do after a possible camel charge?

After possible camel charge. We will move E->f4 and after that it is quite sharp.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by warren on Jan 13^th, 2009, 9:16am

Here's the beginnings of a game tree. To save time I will not be including what appear to be obvious blunders in this tree. Please let me know if I've missed an important move.

4g Ha5ns ra7s Cf2w (Adanac)
4g C->b3, M->c2, C->e2 (Adanac)
4g Cf2w Ed5w Ha5n Ra2e (AM)
4g Cf2w Ha6n Ec5w Ra2n (CG)

4w Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5w (CG)
4s hd7s hd6w hb6s hc6w (Adanac)

4g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hg2n (Adanac)

4g E->g5 C->e2 (jdb)
4s c->g7 m->d6 (AM)
4s h->b3 (adanac)
5g We flip the camel to g4 (adanac)
5s hb3e hc3n Cc2n Cc3x ?? (CG)

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by warren on Jan 13^th, 2009, 9:46am

on 01/12/09 at 10:10:52, chessandgo wrote:

As for the whole move, at first sight 4w Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5w seems cute, threatening 5w Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e.

How do we deal with
4w Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5w
4b e->b5
? More generally don't we need to worry about him taking our horse hostage and framing it using his two-horse horse harassment trick?

Update: actually this seems to be more of a threat as a reply to 4w moves that do no include Ha5n since the rabbit pull delays him by putting a rabbit in his way.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by chessandgo on Jan 14^th, 2009, 5:20am

on 01/13/09 at 09:46:46, warren wrote:

I agree completely with this. I took more time in front of the board yesterday, and we definitely have to think what we will do after 4s e to b5 if we don't move our Ha5 on 4w, for instance after Adanac's move. If we do play a Ha5n step though, e to b5 is no threat as we can just pull the ra7, and there will be no more harassment tactics.

The other thing we might have to ponder in some lines is the flipping possibilities if we keep our M on d2 : for instance 4g Cf2w Ha5n Ed5w Ra3n 4s M to e3, but it seems we always two answers, like 5g Me3n Me4w Ec5e Mc4w which seems to hold and also 5g Hg2w Hf2n Ce2e Me3s.

I'm not very fond anymore of my proposal 4g Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5. I'm waiting to hear what you guys think about letting silver pull our Re1, especially Adanac who didn't seem to think it was a problem. I like your 4g Hg3n Cc2wn Md2w Adanac, it's the best move with respect to development I think, but unfortunately it does not threaten anything yet, so it's not this easy to find sufficient play after silver pulls the Re1 or plays e to b5.

Maybe 4g Cf2w Rf1n Ha5n Ec5w is good; the threats around f3 get weakened, as we would only lose a Rabbit should we lose a piece due to an e+m attack for instance before our Elephant comes back and protect the trap.

Also 4g Cf2w Ra3n Ha5n Ec5w allows us to postpone the decision of what we put on f2/g3, but tactically it might be a bit of trouble not covering the f3 trap.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by NIC1138 on Jan 14^th, 2009, 6:05am

Yikes, I didn't notice the cat was endangered, sorry! :]

In times like this I sometimes like to play something like Cf2w Hg2w Dg1n Ed5s. Cluster everybody on the offending elephant. But this opening we've chosen seems not to favor this move very much...

Another possibility I see is just protect the cat with Re1n and move the elephant to one of his kill houses. e.g. Ha5e Hb5e Ed5n

We could also perhaps go for a cat trade... I love massacres! ::)

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by warren on Jan 14^th, 2009, 9:30am

To counter his threat of e->b5 (hostaging our horse) we need to play either Ha5n or Ed5s. The latter seems like a step in the wrong direction, so I like Ha5n.

To save our cats in three steps it seems one of them needs to be Cf2w, which conveniently stops both threats at once using only one step.

He's also threatening an EH attack. To prevent this in the two steps remaining after the above two steps it seems we need to play Ed5w.

The above reasoning suggests 4g Cf2w Ha5n Ed5w ?? . It seems the last step can be used however we please. I don't have an opinion on the last step at this time.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by jdb on Jan 14^th, 2009, 9:45am

on 01/13/09 at 06:08:49, arimaa_master wrote:

I think that this move is met by c->g7 m->d6. And we are left with no good position.

I agree this looks like a strong reply.

4g E->g5 C->e2
5s c->g7 m->d6
5g H->b3 E->f5

It seems wasteful to advance the horse and then retreat it, but if we consider only the resulting placement of the pieces, its ok. Silver f6 trap is weak because his heavy pieces are all on the other side of the board. Also the camel flip will not work on the next move.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by warren on Jan 14^th, 2009, 8:31pm

on 01/14/09 at 09:45:35, jdb wrote:

Won't he instead play 4s c->g7 h->b3, threatening our cat and camel? If we flip his camel he'll capture our cat and thereby threaten our camel too.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by RonWeasley on Jan 15^th, 2009, 5:53am

Lots of discussion. I would like to consider voting beginning Friday with the vote ending Sunday or Monday. Try to finish, but we can extend the time if a mobster plans to do extensive analysis over the weekend.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by chessandgo on Jan 15^th, 2009, 8:26am

on 01/14/09 at 09:45:35, jdb wrote:

As warren says in his last post, I would prefer hearing what you'd answer to 4s h to b3 x, as this is the line which seems to win material for silver :)

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by jdb on Jan 15^th, 2009, 10:48am

4g E->g5 C->e2
4s h->b3 h->d6
5g m->g4
5s hb3e hc3n Cc2n Cc3x hc2n
5g M->b3 Rc2n

Which as you said loses a cat, but results in a camel hostage.
How much is a camel hostage is worth?

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by RonWeasley on Jan 15^th, 2009, 12:56pm

Against a very competent player such as Fritzlein, a camel hostage is worth less than a cat to me. Maybe just a rabbit. That's because he can run a good flood and strategically make the hostage less valuable. Against a very average opponent, I might be willing to give away a cat. So I won't be voting in favor of that when there's a materially better alternative.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by chessandgo on Jan 16^th, 2009, 1:44am

on 01/15/09 at 10:48:17, jdb wrote:

4g E->g5 C->e2
4s h->b3 h->d6
5g m->g4
5s hb3e hc3n Cc2n Cc3x hc2n
5g M->b3 Rc2n

Which as you said loses a cat, but results in a camel hostage.
How much is a camel hostage is worth?

Not sure what the last steps of 5s stands for, as the h is on c4, say that it's de7s for instance. After your 5g hc5 to f4 and ed3e threatens to take the f2 square if we play the hostaging move m to h3, and there is no way to prevent this. It's true that we have our M and H ready for western wing attack, which is good, but we have a big probelm around f3. In any case I'm not fond of exchanging a Cat for a M hostage, even if we could hostage it in good conditions.

If you think that a m hostage is worth a cat (that is, given a m hostage for free, you'll end up with a "cat advantage" in average, and as Ron says one might think this is a bit optimistic in general), then giving up a cat for a m hostage is subpar, as we have to fight with a piece down until we get some compensation, which is much tougher than fighting with equal forces to get an advantage.

So you'd have to think that a M hostage is worth at least a full Dog to envision such an exchange in the vacuum, which I think is way way too optimistic. But it's an interesting point of view.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by NIC1138 on Jan 16^th, 2009, 2:06pm

Did I miss any comments on Re1n Ha5e Hb5e Ed5n?...

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by chessandgo on Jan 17^th, 2009, 1:16am

on 01/16/09 at 14:06:45, NIC1138 wrote:

Did I miss any comments on Re1n Ha5e Hb5e Ed5n?...

Hey Nic. I see 3 problems to your move:
- Re1n advances our rabbit in the center. after Adanac's 4w C->b3 M->c2 H->g3 for instance, 4s pull the Re1 to e2 is definitely a candidate move for Fritzl, ie you're making him save 5 steps by willingly advancing the Rabbit. It's true that other moves to protect the traps have their own problems as well, but hopefully not as big.
- Ha5->c5 makes us lose 2 steps together with the previous moves (Hw followed by He). If we had wanted to play H to b5/c5 and E to d6, then it's on the previous move that we should have done so. What is more, the Hc5 / Ed6 pattern is rather easily met, either by putting pieces on b7 c7 d7 to block, either by getting the elephant back to deal with the Hc5 (which is what Fritzl wants to do probably, to deadlock the western wing while his camel gets advantage by being the strongest piece on the east).
- even we want to threaten H to c7, then it's better to keep Hb5/Ed6 than Hc5/Ed6 I think, our H is less in trouble when the e comes back, and also closer to a6 in case we want to change gears and play another pattern.

so finally, the pattern we want to E+H with is rather Ha6/Ec5 to play Ec5w Eb5e hb6s ha6e and get the b6 square.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by chessandgo on Jan 17^th, 2009, 1:26am

Cf2w Hg2w Dg1n Ed5s (C->e2, H->g3, D->g2, E->d4) should be Cf2w Hg2w Dg1n Ed5s (C->e2, H->f2, D->g2, E->d4) I guess. I have not seen this move in the discussion btw (I have not seen any Ed5s step, have I missed one?). Ed5s is definitely a step which wastes 2 steps imo.

I don't recall seeing Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Cf2w (C->b3, M->c2, C->e2) either, this is a very interesting move. But silver still has 4s e->b5, which I guess is something Fritzl was hoping for with his setup. Although it's by no means a frightening prospect, we might have a tough time claiming any kind of advantage, contrary to a move like Ha6s Ec5w Cf2w Rf1n/Hg2w, where I can't see anything interesting for silver (4s m to g3 seems not to be threatening after E to f4, and after 4s h->b5 hd7->b6 we have C->b3 M ->c2 x, where silver horses will have to face our caMel. If silver plays a "developing" 4s we have H->b6 which seems a very pleasant prospect.)

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by chessandgo on Jan 17^th, 2009, 6:59am

Also, although I don't know what is the best move, my best guess so far would be Ha6s Ed5w Cf2w Rf1n, which is not among the candidate moves. But well, maybe replacing Rf1n by Hg2w is better? In any case, I would say Ha6s Ed5w Cf2w Rf1n is much more plausible move than pulling the ra7 for instance.

It's a tough task in any case to list candidate moves for this move, you're not doing an easy job Ron :)

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by warren on Jan 17^th, 2009, 7:26am

on 01/17/09 at 06:59:52, chessandgo wrote:

Also, although I don't know what is the best move, my best guess so far would be Ha6s Ed5w Cf2w Rf1n

Don't you mean Ha6n?

Update: My favorite moves currently are Ha6n Ed5w Cf2w Rf1n and the variant with Hg2w instead of Rf1n. I'm guessing RW didn't conciously exclude the Rf1n move but simply failed to notice it among the sea of other proposals. Perhaps a ballot re-issue is in order?

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by RonWeasley on Jan 17^th, 2009, 3:39pm

Oops. I didn't read carefully enough. I thought Cf2w Rf1n Ha5n Ed5w was one of the previously submitted moves. I'm not at the right place to restart the vote. How about if people voice vote if they would pick this move first. If we get 7, it's a slam dunk and I'll just do it then. Otherwise, I'm inclined to restart. We still have a lot of reserve.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by chessandgo on Jan 18^th, 2009, 2:58am

on 01/17/09 at 07:26:44, warren wrote:

Yes, I meant Ha5n, thanks warren. I'm dislexic and routinely confuse north and south, which is just as bad for an arimaa player as my former logic teacher who always confused true and false :)

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by warren on Jan 18^th, 2009, 9:23am

on 01/17/09 at 15:39:26, RonWeasley wrote:

I vote for that move. My current favorites are (in this order):

Ha5n Ed5w Cf2w Rf1n
Ha5n Ed5w Cf2w Hg2w
Ha5n Ed5w Cf2w Ra2n

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by RonWeasley on Jan 19^th, 2009, 5:34am

I started a new vote. Please vote by Tuesday. Sorry about the confusion.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by chessandgo on Jan 19^th, 2009, 10:03am

Ok thanks Ron. Sorry for the confusing position, we could have decided on a course which would have made move selection easier! :)

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by RonWeasley on Jan 21^st, 2009, 4:58am

The winner in a close vote is the dark horse Cf2w Rf1n Ha5n Ed5w. Second was the similar move that left the H on f2 instead of the R.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by NIC1138 on Jan 21^st, 2009, 9:48am

Since I never use this opening, and also I am not a very good player (what might even be correlated :P), I would love to hear more comments and analysis about how much frequent and acceptable is this cf2w rf1n movement at this moment of the match. ???

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by chessandgo on Jan 22^nd, 2009, 4:29am

You're right Nic, I think it's pretty rare to play such a move; here the situation was a bit tricky, which is why such a strange move seemed plausible. We have the advantage of playing against ehh-m with our heavy pieces well placed with respect to this ehh-m to make it up for the small loss incured by having to play such 2 steps imo.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by NIC1138 on Jan 23^rd, 2009, 12:15pm

But why did it win over the dog alternative? It was a close call, perhaps we didn't discuss it long enough...

The bunny is in the way of the other stones now, making it more difficult to move inside our own area. We are talking a lot about wasting moves, but any bunny forward is an irreversible move, which is much much worse than simply being "inefficient".

I'm not sure why the dog alternative could be worse, but if that is the best move we had, and if I were watching the game from the outside, I would be only able to imagine that knowingly or not Fritzlein forced us to move a bunny forward, which is quite a tactical feat for him. You told about my move idea (which I agree wasn't great) that putting that central bunny forward was saving Fritz 5 steps. Moving this bunny saved him even more, and will do even worse to us.

But let's see what happens, history will judge us. :)

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by chessandgo on Jan 24^th, 2009, 3:14am

I'm not sure what you mean by dog alternative. Do you mean Hg2w instead of Rf1n?

In any case, having a Rf2 is not as bad as having a Re2, as our Rabbit cannot be pulled forward, and almost not be pushed forward either, which is a big relief.

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by NIC1138 on Jan 29^th, 2009, 6:25am

Sorry, I meant the second move, where a horse (and not dog) move into f2. BTW, what was the reason we have to occupy f2? ???

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by chessandgo on Jan 30^th, 2009, 12:24am

well, it's always good to be protecting a trap :) Our current position is a bit kinky, we are not covering either of our home traps with two pieces, hopefully nothing painful can happen until we repare this :)

Title: Re: Move 4
Post by chessandgo on Feb 1^st, 2009, 8:55am

I realized just now that after Adanac's 4g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hg2n, 4s e to b5 is no problem as we can play Cb3wn Ha5n Ed5w. Maybe you should have tried to work out more precisely whether 4s pulling the Re1 was a good reply to this move.

And it's also too bad that Ron's new move 4g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Cf2w has not been discussed, it was definitely a worthy move, as silver might not have a good answer to it.