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        Team Games >> 2009 One vs TheMob >> Move 6
        
(Message started by: warren on Feb 13^th, 2009, 7:54am)

Title: Move 6
Post by warren on Feb 13^th, 2009, 7:54am

5s hd6s dd8s dd7s hd5s

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by Simon on Feb 13^th, 2009, 12:23pm

Hi, I'm a newb here. I think it will help my understanding if I try to suggest something and get told (hopefully) why it is wrong, so I suggest:

6g Ec5s hd4e Ec4e Hf3w

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by Simon on Feb 13^th, 2009, 12:25pm

By the way, my lowish player number is because I signed up a while ago, but played only 3 games against low bots before leaving and haven't played since.

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by warren on Feb 13^th, 2009, 5:53pm

He has two major threats that I see: his EH is threatening our cat and his EM is threatening our horse if our E strays too far. I don't like how he has threats against both our traps while we have no real threats against his.

One possibility is, as Simon suggests,
6g E->d4 h->e4 ????
but that seems at first glance to leave our position kind of cramped, with only our elephant doing much.

Another possibility is
6g H->a5 r->a6 E->c4 ???? (perhaps C->b2)
but the rabbit pull doesn't seem threatening enough.

My current favorite is
6g C->b3 M->c2 ???
where ??? is perhaps D->d2 or E->c4.

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Feb 14^th, 2009, 5:51am

besides capture on c3, silver threatens hd4 to g3. I don't think that Hf3w is the good way to move the horse, simon, I'd rather say Hf3e to occupy g3.

I agree with warren's c to b3 M to c2. The most pressing matter might be to get our caMel to b3, so that our c3 trap can hold if our phant needs to leaves towards the eastern side when silver's camel attacks there. Pulling the ra7 would definitely not be an improvement to our position, since the game will be a matter of trap control, with several traps contested by both sides. Having an advanced rabbit would be much more of an asset to silver than a liability. I don't see much of a point to Ec5s either. As I understand the position, we would like to place our caMel on b3 to control c3 firmly, and take the b6 square with our Ha6 then (or maybe right on next move). The question would be next who can make more progress: silver on the east with his camel vs our Horse (or maybe with mh vs H), or us with EMH vs eh(h) on the west. I think advancing rabbit(s) on the a-file should be good for both sides in this view.

I can't see anything else than 6g Cc2wn Md2w Hf3e for the moment.

After playing Cc2wn Md2w we always have the ressource of answering h to b3 pushing the b3 Cat to b2 (if it becomes possible) with Ra2n Cb2w Mc2w, so we don't seem in dealdy danger right now.

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by warren on Feb 14^th, 2009, 7:31am

on 02/14/09 at 05:51:13, chessandgo wrote:

I can't see anything else than 6g Cc2wn Md2w Hf3en for the moment.

Your proposed move uses 5 steps. Do you mean (Hf3e or Hf3n) as the last step?

Update: what do we do after
6w Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e
6b mg6s mg5s mg4e Hg3n
?

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by Simon on Feb 14^th, 2009, 12:29pm

Quote:

but that seems at first glance to leave our position kind of cramped, with only our elephant doing much.

Quote:

silver threatens hd4 to g3. I don't think that Hf3w is the good way to move the horse, simon, I'd rather say Hf3e to occupy g3.

Thanks! Still, I'm not sure I fully understand why this is a bad idea. The position is only temporarily cramped because silver has to do something to save his horse, and silver can't move the horse to g3 the next turn because (with our horse at e3) it takes him two steps to unfreeze the horse, and the remaining steps are not enough to get there.

Quote:

Update: what do we do after
6w Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e
6b mg6s mg5s mg4e Hg3n
?

If advanced rabbits are not a problem, then maybe 7g Rh2n Rh3n Hg4s ?? ?

I doubt it though, since the f6 trap looks like the one we're least likely to contest.

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Feb 14^th, 2009, 12:32pm

yes, Hf3e, thanks. After gold pulling our horse to g5, toying with the expert mode with e to f5, it almost seems to hold, even though it's double-edged. More sensible might be 7w Dg2n Hg4ws x. Not sure what gold plays next, placing the caMel on g6 should fail to silver's phant coming back (probably).

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by Adanac on Feb 15^th, 2009, 4:35am

I agree with Chessandgo that we must return our horse to g3. However, I'll suggest an eccentric move:

Ra2>^ Cc2^ Hf3> (Ra2e Rb2n Cc2n Hf3e)

If this turns into a chaotic full-board brawl, which I believe it will, then having an advanced rabbit will be an advantage for us rather than a disadvantage. Plus, we haven't committed our camel yet and may want to move it east later. If so, we can use a mass of small pieces to clog & defend our c3 trap again a possible E+H attack.

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by arimaa_master on Feb 15^th, 2009, 5:05am

I see nothing better that 6g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w

but I think that there is a question what to play in 4th step.

Horse to b3 is maybe a good move - but I think that the horse is much exposed to the gold's camel there. So I propose Dg2n instead.

Complete move:

6g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Dg2n

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by jdb on Feb 15^th, 2009, 6:07am

on 02/13/09 at 12:23:19, Simon wrote:

Hi, I'm a newb here. I think it will help my understanding if I try to suggest something and get told (hopefully) why it is wrong, so I suggest:

6g Ec5s hd4e Ec4e Hf3w

After looking at the position, I think this move is worth a second look.

The goal of this move is to use the threat on his horse, to either get a grip on silver's dog or camel. The ability of his dog to retreat is limited due to gold's advanced horse. His camel is vulnerable because it is on the wing.

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Feb 15^th, 2009, 7:11am

on 02/14/09 at 12:29:22, Simon wrote:

If advanced rabbits are not a problem, then maybe 7g Rh2n Rh3n Hg4s ?? ?

I doubt it though, since the f6 trap looks like the one we're least likely to contest.

Yes, we'd like to have advanced rabbits on the west more than on the east, but advancing a Rabbit on the east is definitely not out of question to retreat a piece. Silver himself will likely advance his rh7 withing a few moves.

on 02/14/09 at 12:29:22, Simon wrote:

It's not necessarily a bad idea, it's quite possible that this is the move we'll play in the end. The question is what do we want to achieve with this move? We are moving our Elephant away from the western wing, effectively undoing the steps we had played previously to get it there, without it having accomplished its purpose on the west (getting the b6 square for the Ha6 mostly). And we are moving our Horse away from g3, where it will likely have to go very soon to avoid silver's horse going there.

on 02/15/09 at 06:07:10, jdb wrote:

It seems rather unlikely to me that we can pull the d6 dog while silver's elephant stays in the center (e3/d3). I don't think that silver's camel is vulnerable, as silver is willing to advance his h-file rabbits to cover it.

This said 6g Ec5s hd4e Ec4e Hf3w is interesting.

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Feb 15^th, 2009, 7:21am

on 02/15/09 at 04:35:16, Adanac wrote:

If we want to put a R on b3, I'd rather put the Rb1 rather than Ra2 (Rb1nn instead of Ra2en). In the resulting position, I think we'd better have an Ra2 than an Rb1 (closer to the action when it will advance). One thing is that after this move we are 5 steps away from having our caMel on b3, while with the C->b3 M->c2 move we're 4 steps away from it.

It is true that if Simon's move is answered by He3e ed3e x x (with one "x" being a horse move probably), then we can have our M on b3 for only 3 steps, which is probably a gain over the 7 or 8 steps it takes with Greg's move or mine, even factoring the lost steps with the Elephant.

On the other hand, maybe Simon's move can be answered by something like de7ss he4ee, keeping the phant on d3.

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Feb 15^th, 2009, 7:25am

on 02/15/09 at 05:05:35, arimaa_master wrote:

Horse to b3 is maybe a good move - but I think that the horse is much exposed to the gold's camel there. So I propose Dg2n instead.

Yes, we'd rather have a Dog fight the camel than a Horse. But if we end up rotating our Dog with the f3 Horse when silver's d4 horse moves within reach of g3, we'd have lost time.

(what follows is esoteric)

Not sure what silver wants to do with his advanced horse. It does not seem unlikely that he'll move it to the western wing, and if your camel reaches b3, it'll give some kind of symmetric position, each side attacking on one wing with horse/camel vs horse. In such a position, one important factor is on which wing the elephants are. Possibly we want to have the elephant on the wing where the enemy is attacking with mh vs H, but I'm not sure about it.

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by warren on Feb 15^th, 2009, 10:43am

What about Simon's move except sending the horse east instead of west? That is,
6g E->d4 h->e4 Hf3e

Update: What about
6g Rb1^^ Cc2< Md2<

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by warren on Feb 15^th, 2009, 10:46am

6g E->d4 h->e4 Hf3e (warren)
6g E->d4 h->e4 Hf3w (Simon)
6s He3e ed3e x x (CG)
6s de7ss he4ee (CG)

6g C->b3 M->c2 D->d2 (warren)
6g C->b3 M->c2 E->c4 (warren)
6g C->b3 M->c2 Dg2n (AM)
6g C->b3 M->c2 Hf3e (CG)
6s mg6s mg5s mg4e Hg3n (warren)
7g Rh2n Rh3n Hg4s (simon)
7g Dg2n Hg4ws x (CG)

6g Ra2>^ Cc2^ Hf3> (Adanac)
6g Rb1^^ Cc2^ Hf3> (CG)
6g Rb1^^ Cc2< Md2< (warren)

6g H->a5 r->a6 E->c4 C->b2 (warren)

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by warren on Feb 15^th, 2009, 11:39am

I'm concerned Fritz might try to pull our f2 rabbit and trap it in the f6 trap. Something like:

6w Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e
6b hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7w Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e
7b hf4s hf3n Rf2n cg8s
8w Ec5e hb5e hc5s Ed5w
8b ee3w ed3n hc4w hb4w
9w Dg2w Ec5n dd6n Ec6e
9b ed4w ec4n hf4e Rf3n

Update: never mind, here's a better line for us:
9w Hb6n Rf3w cc7e Hb7e
9b rb8s rb7s ed4s ha4n
10w Ce2e Hc7w rb6e Hb7s
10b Re3n ed3e cd7w ha5n

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by RonWeasley on Feb 18^th, 2009, 4:47am

Not much commenting here. Unless this picks up, we vote tomorrow (Thursday).

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by Adanac on Feb 18^th, 2009, 5:48pm

on 02/15/09 at 11:39:17, warren wrote:

I'm concerned Fritz might try to pull our f2 rabbit and trap it in the f6 trap. Something like:

6w Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e
6b hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7w Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e
7b hf4s hf3n Rf2n cg8s

At that point, Fritzlein would almost certainly play 7s hf4s Rf2s Hf3s instead giving him a huge advantage. His 4th step could even be mg6s, giving his camel a better attacking position on the east side, or even to set up a western camel move across the 5th rank (to harass our b6 horse), after our elephant retreats to f4.

I prefer to leave our camel on d2 rather than committing it to c2, so that later in the game we can decide which wing to place it on. I still like the idea of putting a rabbit on b3, but we could do it without the cat on c3, as I suggested earlier. Instead we could devote the extra step to blocking out the f2 square to discourage an attack a E+H attack against our southeast trap. Something like:

6g Rb1n Rb2n Hf3e Re1e
6s hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7g Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e (Silver horse -> b5, gold horse -> b6)

We got our horse on b6 but without allowing the silver horse onto f2. Fritz would probably continue by framing our horse on f3, but I think we can survive it OK:

7s mg6s mg5s Hg3w mg4s
8g Dd1e Rh1w Ec5e hb5e
8s ee3w Ce2n Ce3n ed3e (cat flip e2->e4)
9g De1e Rf1w Md2n Cc2e

Optically, our position doesn’t look great, but our elephant is in range to save our horse and our camel can still threaten the western silver horse. If that plan is too risky, then we should probably give up the idea of putting our horse on b6 with 7g. Unfortunately, that leaves our horse looking rather silly. I’d prefer to put the horse on b6 and see if we can survive the assault on the f3 trap.

If that whole line is too dangerous then I like arimaa_master’s suggestion of

6g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Dg2n

I don’t think we’d have time to get our horse onto b6 with this line, so we’d probably have to shift our elephant east to defend against Fritzlein’s imminent attack, leaving our horse on a6. Fortunately, our camel is better positioned to harass the silver horse later in the game and our rabbits are still in fairly pristine condition.

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by Adanac on Feb 18^th, 2009, 6:11pm

Does anyone want a wacky idea? OK, how about a cat sacrifice?

6g Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e
6s hd4w ed3w ec3e Cc2n Cc3x (cat captured)
7g Md2w Mc2w Mb2n Mb3n (Camel -> b4)

We have both of his horses tied up at the cost of a cat. I don't like it because his camel is free to attack our east side, but we do have some long-term strength on the west side despite the loss of the cat. I don't expect that anyone else actually likes this idea, so I'll end my analysis now ;)

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Feb 20^th, 2009, 2:32am

on 02/18/09 at 17:48:51, Adanac wrote:

At that point, Fritzlein would almost certainly play 7s hf4s Rf2s Hf3s instead giving him a huge advantage.

Yes, one of the things we want absolutely to avoid is to let him get an e+h attack with hg3 or hf2.

on 02/18/09 at 17:48:51, Adanac wrote:

I prefer to leave our camel on d2 rather than committing it to c2, so that later in the game we can decide which wing to place it on.

I am not sure I support this idea; moving our caMel to the east and leaving our western wing unprotected will be tough, no matter how the situation evolves. In my experience trying to cover both wings with the caMel when the opponent has a good attacking position, and when our hometraps are not very strongly protected is undoable in mid-term. I could be wrong though.

on 02/18/09 at 17:48:51, Adanac wrote:

Something like:

6g Rb1n Rb2n Hf3e Re1e
6s hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7g Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e (Silver horse -> b5, gold horse -> b6)

We got our horse on b6 but without allowing the silver horse onto f2. Fritz would probably continue by framing our horse on f3, but I think we can survive it OK:

7s mg6s mg5s Hg3w mg4s
8g Dd1e Rh1w Ec5e hb5e
8s ee3w Ce2n Ce3n ed3e (cat flip e2->e4)
9g De1e Rf1w Md2n Cc2e

I think after such a 6s we have to play E to f5. After your 7g, pushing the Horse to h3 forces capture on f3.

I think that having to play 7g E to f5 after this 6s and no matter what 6w we had played, os rather ok for us, as silver has to prevent his horse from being framed, allowing us to get our camel to b3 (especially if we had played C to b3 M to c2). Then we're ok, playing a MH vs h on the west, and EH vs emh on the east, which sounds good. Here the lost tempi wiht our phant going west then east are not a problem since silver lost at least as many tempi to get his eh on the east after putting then on d-file.

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Feb 20^th, 2009, 3:39am

on 02/18/09 at 17:48:51, Adanac wrote:

If that whole line is too dangerous then I like arimaa_master’s suggestion of

6g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Dg2n

I don’t think we’d have time to get our horse onto b6 with this line, so we’d probably have to shift our elephant east to defend against Fritzlein’s imminent attack, leaving our horse on a6. Fortunately, our camel is better positioned to harass the silver horse later in the game and our rabbits are still in fairly pristine condition.

If you are expecting silver to bring his horse to the east, then you will have to replace the Dg3 by an Hg3 on next move, won't you?

on 02/18/09 at 18:11:43, Adanac wrote:

Nope, I don't like it, we are holding (not even hostaging) the horses on the same wing, with no hope of creating a second material threat as we can't attack c6.

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by Adanac on Feb 20^th, 2009, 7:33am

on 02/20/09 at 02:32:39, chessandgo wrote:

I think that having to play 7g E to f5 after this 6s and no matter what 6w we had played, os rather ok for us, as silver has to prevent his horse from being framed, allowing us to get our camel to b3 (especially if we had played C to b3 M to c2). Then we're ok, playing a MH vs h on the west, and EH vs emh on the east, which sounds good. Here the lost tempi wiht our phant going west then east are not a problem since silver lost at least as many tempi to get his eh on the east after putting then on d-file.

Good explanation, I'm convinced by this plan. I don't mind losing the tempos in the west (and being unable to get our horse onto b6 immediately), as long as we've got a good long-term position in the west.

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by RonWeasley on Feb 20^th, 2009, 5:28pm

I'm extending the voting for a while because only 7 votes have been cast. This is a difficult decision so I'm not disappointed. Please cast a vote if you can.

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by warren on Feb 20^th, 2009, 8:53pm

I'm afraid I haven't made up my mind yet. I'm leaning towards
Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e (C->b3, M->c2, H->g3)
as my first choice, but I have no clue what a good second choice would be.

Is the following line ok for us?

6w Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e
6b hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7w Ec5e Ed5e Ee5e ???? (Dd1n or Rh1w)
7b ee3e ef3w Rf2n ????

Update: in light of the above line I think I like
Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Dg2n (C->b3, M->c2, D->g3)
a bit better than Hf3e.

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Feb 21^st, 2009, 2:44am

on 02/20/09 at 20:53:52, warren wrote:

interesting question warren; I would have said that

6w Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e
6b hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7w Ec5e Ed5e Ee5e Re1e
7b ee3e ef3w Rf2n cg7s
8g Mc2nnw Rc1n

should be fine for us. But actually silver has 8s ed3s hf4e Rf3n ee4w, which does not seem promising for us. So maybe we'd have to play something like 8g Mc2n Rc1n hf4w Ef5s instead. Our Rf3 might not be that weak, but this position does not seem to match our greatest dreams ...

on 02/20/09 at 20:53:52, warren wrote:

Update: in light of the above line I think I like
Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Dg2n (C->b3, M->c2, D->g3)
a bit better than Hf3e.

Actually after 6g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Dg2n, silver will rather play ed3e hd4eee I think. I don't see better than replacing the Dg3 with the Hf3 then. On the other hand, the outcome might be similar to playing Hf3e on 6g, as if silver next plays an hg4w step, both sides will have lost two steps. So I guess I have to withdraw my concerned observations on this 6g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Dg2n move :)

Maybe the C to b3 M to c2 are not that great, so what about simon's 6g ec5s hd4e ec4e Hf3w in the end? Say for instance 6s He3e ed3e he4e de6s. We cannot answer 7g M to c3 x x without letting silver get the g3 square for his horse. The outcome will be very similar to the above lines, ubnless we try 7g h to f3. Then silver gets an ee3+hf2 attack around f2, but now Adanac's idea of going _east_ with the caMel comes into effect, for instance 7s Rf2s hf3s rh7ss 8g Rf1w Re1w x x (the last two steps being possibly like Ha6se to prevent h to b3, maybe). On next move we are likely to be able to frame back the horse on f3. Silver will be able to immediately release the frame thanks to his camel, if he plays 8s rh5s mg6s x x, after which it gets very unclear, maybe each side getting a horse hostage.

All this is rather unclear.

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Feb 21^st, 2009, 2:49am

So maybe the best thing is actually to look for a better 7g in the line

6w Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e
6b hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7w Ec5e Ed5e Ee5e Re1e

Maybe 7w Ec5e Re1e Mc1n Rc1n is better. On d5 our phant is within reach of f4 so mssH> is not a threat. After 7s hf4sn Rf2n x, we have 8g E to e4 dd6 to d4, which is an improvement over the line in my previous post. Or maybe 7w Ec5see Re1e. Hmmmm

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by Adanac on Feb 21^st, 2009, 7:11am

on 02/21/09 at 02:44:50, chessandgo wrote:

If our greatest worry is that Karl will pull our rabbit up to f4, then we could easily counter with a rabbit pull of our own on the west side and leave our elephant on f5 to make it more time-consuming for him to capture our rabbit.

6g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hf3e
6s hd4e he4e ed3e de7s
7g Ec5e Ed5e Ee5e de6s
7s ee3e ef3w Rf2n cg8s
8g Ha6s ra7s Ha5s ra6s (pull: Hr/vv)
8s ee3n hf4e Rf3n ee4w
9g Rf4w Ef5e Ha4s ra5s

We can lure the elephant back to the east, return our elephant to f5, and trade rabbits. I thought we were losing, so I'd be content to just level out the position with an exchange of rabbits.

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Feb 21^st, 2009, 7:48am

Yes, that's very true Greg. So hopefully C-> b3 M-> c2 moves are fine. I hope we're not losing yet, after move 5s that would have been a bad opening :-)

Title: Re: Move 6
Post by RonWeasley on Feb 22^nd, 2009, 7:33am

TheMob eventually selects C->b3, M->c2, H->g3.

This was a hard vote because none of the moves were really compelling. I think this difficulty discouraged some mobsters from voting. For those who were not here at the beginning of the first game, let me highlight a few options.

If you have no favorite candidate, it is perfectly fine to rank all acceptable candidates as #1. A tie. Maybe a tie among 8 candidates. That gets interpreted as a preference for those 8 over the others. Maybe that's all you can decide on a really hard vote like the one we just had. Our voting system handles this just fine.

Voting a tie when you're not really sure is better than not voting at all. I can look at how many votes have been cast so I know if we have TheMob's opinion represented. Lots of 'not sure' votes means that we're not sure but ready to move based on the few who are sure enough to rank the leading candidates. The outcome may be the same in either case, but it saves time on our clock if I see we have 10 or more votes and am confident that our opinion is represented.

So if in the future we have a hard decision and you're not really sure (I wasn't on this move), please vote a tie rather than not voting at all.