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        Team Games >> 2009 One vs TheMob >> Move 7
        
(Message started by: Simon on Feb 27^th, 2009, 6:15pm)

Title: Move 7
Post by Simon on Feb 27^th, 2009, 6:15pm

6s mg6s mg5s mg4n Hg3n

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by Simon on Feb 28^th, 2009, 5:23am

No comments yet?

Use Dog to release Horse:
7g Dg2n Hg4w Hf4s ??
Horse retreats to trap, one step to west of original position. Last move we spent a step moving the horse east (because of the vulnerability of the Dog to the horse?).Now the Dog is one step forward which ironically seems to make it less vulnerable to the horse, but may make it more vulnerable to the camel unless it is retreated with the last step.

Use Rabbit to release Horse:
7g Rh2n Rh3n Hg4s ??
Horse retreats to where it just was previously. R can re-release H if pull attempted again. However R is in a vulnerable forward position, and can be pulled towards the f6 trap, though it would take at least 3 turns to capture it.

Move Elephant to camel:
7g Ec5e Ed5e Ee5e ??
It is difficult for me to evaluate this. One possible response of Fritzlein would be something like
7s rh7s rh6s mg5n hd4w
which I would guess puts us into a worse position, but I'm not sure.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by arimaa_master on Feb 28^th, 2009, 6:58am

I suggest to play:

7g Mc2n Rc1n Dd1n Dg1n

Which allows us to change wings in our next move with our E because now we are tied up due to defending possible EH attack at c3 trap.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by Adanac on Feb 28^th, 2009, 10:42am

on 02/28/09 at 06:58:41, arimaa_master wrote:

I suggest to play:

7g Mc2n Rc1n Dd1n Dg2n

Which allows us to change wings in our next move with our E because now we are tied up due to defending possible EH attack at c3 trap.

I like that "calm" plan, though I'd rather play Ec5e rather than Dg2n for the 4th step. I prefer having the elephant closer to our horse, as well as having threats against the silver horse. We have the option of pushing the silver horse to e3 in response to our horse being pulled to g6. I'm not necessarily saying that I want to push the horse to e3 on 8g, it's just one of a few extra options that we get from centralizing our elephant.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by Simon on Feb 28^th, 2009, 4:52pm

I am inclined to like Adanac's version of arimaa_master's suggestion. I tentatively withdraw any support of mine from the moves I mentioned in my post (though other people may support them; all were discussed in the last move thread).

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by arimaa_master on Mar 1^st, 2009, 5:55am

on 02/28/09 at 10:42:16, Adanac wrote:

Dg1n prevents silver from flipping our elephant to e3.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by Oystein on Mar 1^st, 2009, 6:43am

on 03/01/09 at 05:55:19, arimaa_master wrote:

Dg2n prevents silver from flipping our elephant to e3.

Something seems to be wrong here, do you mean Dd1n prevents silver from flipping our camel to e3?

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by chessandgo on Mar 1^st, 2009, 2:52pm

Hey great, when pondering about the position I thought most would like one of Simon's proposal, I'm delighted to see that people support M to c3.

Simon, after Eeee x, silver's critical answer might be hb6ss Cb3s hb4s. The position is not completely clear as we have the M to b2 ressource, but we would have to compute it very carefully, the feeling is that we'll probably lose material.

After AM's move, silver can play msHsmsHs, and envision hostaging the H on g7 from f7. The position seems rather unclear, as the hostage does not hold well, but our g3 trap becomes weak at the same time. We definitely have to work something out.

After Greg's move, the same move (pull H south twice) seems to be possible as well, as if we push the h to e3 silver can play d to f4. Unless we find a move then, it does not seems to hold. Othewise, same question, what do we do.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by arimaa_master on Mar 2^nd, 2009, 2:09am

on 03/01/09 at 06:43:13, Oystein wrote:

Something seems to be wrong here, do you mean Dd1n prevents silver from flipping our camel to e3?

Yes, I meant Dg1n - thanks for pointing this out.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by Adanac on Mar 2^nd, 2009, 8:13am

on 03/01/09 at 14:52:42, chessandgo wrote:

After Greg's move, the same move (pull H south twice) seems to be possible as well, as if we push the h to e3 silver can play d to f4. Unless we find a move then, it does not seems to hold. Othewise, same question, what do we do.

Yes, you're right, the horse push to e3 doesn't work.

The centralized horse was intended to be a flexible move to give us more options. If our horse gets pulled to g6 (likely), we can also move our elephant to f5 and drag a dog or horse to e5. Or we can move our elephant to e6, pushing a dog to f6. Or we can just walk the elephant to f5, using an extra step to advance our dog to g3, which transposes into Arimaa_master's original suggetion.

I have no idea what our best tactical continuation is, but if our elephant is going to move east anyway, I'd prefer to do it now.

If it's still possible to get our horse onto b6, I like that too. I'm at work right now and can't analyze the position, so I'm not sure if it's already too late to pull the silver horse to b5??

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by warren on Mar 3^rd, 2009, 8:23am

on 03/01/09 at 05:55:19, arimaa_master wrote:

Dg1n prevents silver from flipping our elephant to e3.

Is the camel flip really that much of a threat? The following line looks ok to me:

7w Mc2n Rc1n Dg2n Ec5e
7b ed3s Mc3e Md3e ed2n
8w Ed5e Ee5e Ef5w mg5w

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by chessandgo on Mar 3^rd, 2009, 2:07pm

on 03/03/09 at 08:23:11, warren wrote:

Is the camel flip really that much of a threat? The following line looks ok to me:

7w Mc2n Rc1n Dg2n Ec5e
7b ed3s Mc3e Md3e ed2n
8w Ed5e Ee5e Ef5w mg5w

Then 8b h to b3 or h to c2 or M to e5 seem deadly.

I start to dislike the position. Not sure where we went wrong if we did, and wondering more and more whether ehh-m is not a great idea while I have been thinking all along it was bad. The h to d4 move is also something perplexing to me, never seen anything like this before.

I have not had that much time to think about the position, but I have hard time to see how our position holds if we let silver pull the Hg4 to g6, although I thought it could be a good idea when thinking about it first. Our problem is not that much the "hostage" in itself that the fact that our f3 trap becomes unportected and that we have only one way to prevent silver from winning material there with an e+h: flooding the trap with small pieces. Our hope is that we can exploit our MH vs h on the west to make it up for the bad position on the east, but at first sight I'm not optimistic.

So far I would to prefer Simons' 7g Rh2n Rh3n Hg4s (Dd1n) and 7g Dg2n Hg4w Hf4s (x). Playing it out a bit, they do not seem great though. In particular, x cannot be Dd1n maybe, as ed3e Dd2n hd4e Dd3n seems a bit tough to meet. 7g Dg2n Hg4w Hf4s Re1e should be better, but then silver has several rather threatening moves

(this post is getting messier and messier as I change my mind again and again when writing it ^^)

for instance 7s mg5s mg4e Dg3n hd4e, but maybe it's still ok, with somehting like 8g Cb3w Mc2wn Ed5e where it's getting over-messy.

Also 7s mg5s mg4n Dg3n hd4e might be painful.

And:
7g Rh2n Rh3n Hg4s (Dd1n)
7s R to h5 does not seem very pleasant either, we'll be losing a rabbit to get the b6 square and get our camel to b3/c3, which might be too expensive a prize.

All in all it all seems messy and dangerous. We need to work precisely on concrete lines I guess.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by Simon on Mar 3^rd, 2009, 5:51pm

Hmm. What about Ed5e hd4n Ee5n hd5e (elephant pulls horse while moving to defend f6) in response to the camel pulling the horse north (after Adanac's version of arimaa_master's move)?

7g Mc2n Rc1n Dd1n Ec5e
-7s mg5n Hg4n mg6n Hg5n
--8g Ed5e hd4n Ee5n hd5e
---8s ed3n ed4w ec4w Mc3n
----9g Ra2n Cb3e Mc4e Md4s (or similar)
---8s ed3n ed4e ee4e ef4n

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by chessandgo on Mar 4^th, 2009, 11:59am

on 03/03/09 at 17:51:06, Simon wrote:

I don't understand your 8s moves. How about 8s Hg6e mg7s cg8s ed3e? The hostage is already tough to break, we might escape fro the edge of our teeth with something like 9g he5w Ee6s Ee5e Dg2n 9s ed5see x 10g Ef5ew mg6, but our position seems bad anyway.

If the E ends up on f5 rather than e6 on 8g then 8s de7s rf7w mg7w Hg6n followed by an e+h attack around f3 seems even worse for us.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by Adanac on Mar 4^th, 2009, 12:09pm

on 03/03/09 at 14:07:40, chessandgo wrote:

All in all it all seems messy and dangerous. We need to work precisely on concrete lines I guess.

Yes, indeed.

We should continue to brainstorm ideas until we come up with ONE solid plan, even if we have to burn a lot of our reserve time. I guess now would be a great time to create a move tree!

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by Adanac on Mar 4^th, 2009, 5:10pm

Instead of worrying about Fritzlein's attack in the west, maybe we should be thinking about attacking HIM in the west?

After all, we do have a camel that can dream about reaching b4 and freezing the silver horses to b5 and c4.

7g Rh2n Rh3n Hg4s Ra2n
7s (rabbit pull in the east)
8g Mc2n Rc1n Ra3n Dd1n

and now we're ready to get our camel to b4, pulling the silver horse to c4. Our rabbit on a4 gives our camel mobility if the elephant crosses over to b3.

A bigger threat might be an e+m+h attack at f3. But luckily, we'll have enough time to get our elephant down there and our camel will become stronger in the west.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by Simon on Mar 4^th, 2009, 7:03pm

Thanks chessandgo, now I think the only reason I was thinking that that 8g move was any good was that I was somehow completely blind to the fact that the silver elephant could move from one of our traps to the other.

Adanac's new move is intriguing. What happens if Fritzlein launches an emh attack on 7s instead of waiting until 8s?

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by chessandgo on Mar 5^th, 2009, 12:47pm

Simon, it does not appear like silver cab launch an e+h+m attack in one move; if he answers Adanac's move with M to g3 for instance, we have E to f4 available.

Greg, nice trick that if we can pull his hd4 to c4 with an Ra4 support then we are in good shape. But it takes only one step to silver to move his h away from d4 before we can play this. One way or another, we might have to pay one rabbit to get an attacking position on the west.

7g Rh2n Rh3n Hg4s Dd1n
7s mg5e mh5n Rh4n cg8n
8g Mc2n Rc1n Ra2n Ra3n
8s mh6w Rh5n and hd4n ed3n or hd4e ed3e or ...

It's true that we can then prevent an immediate capture with E to f5, in 2 moves in the former 8s by pushing the hd5. But silver's position seems rather enjoyable.

How about 7g Dg2n Hg4ws Ec5e ? It's not completely clear but it seems to hold after 7s hb6sss Cb3s 8g Ed5ws Mc2n Dd1n.
Otherwise, it threatens to push the hd4 to c3 and hostage it with the caMel. It gives less freedom to the mg5 to pull pieces, and if silver plays a hd4e step we have Ed5e he4s Ee5s Dd1n to block the horse.
How does it look like?

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by Simon on Mar 7^th, 2009, 8:31am

Quote:

How about 7g Dg2n Hg4ws Ec5e ? It's not completely clear but it seems to hold after 7s hb6sss Cb3s 8g Ed5ws Mc2n Dd1n.
Otherwise, it threatens to push the hd4 to c3 and hostage it with the caMel. It gives less freedom to the mg5 to pull pieces, and if silver plays a hd4e step we have Ed5e he4s Ee5s Dd1n to block the horse.
How does it look like?

After the 7g-8g sequence of moves it looks like the silver camel does have freedom to pull pieces, e.g. 8s mg5swe Hf3n. Is this a problem?

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by chessandgo on Mar 8^th, 2009, 1:25am

Yes, it's one of the answers to check. Then 9g hb3w Mc3w hd4e Ec4e seems to be doing fine?

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by warren on Mar 8^th, 2009, 9:42am

on 03/03/09 at 14:07:40, chessandgo wrote:

Quote:

Is the camel flip really that much of a threat? The following line looks ok to me:

7w Mc2n Rc1n Dg2n Ec5e
7b ed3s Mc3e Md3e ed2n
8w Ed5e Ee5e Ef5w mg5w

Then 8b h to b3 or h to c2 or M to e5 seem deadly.

Huh? M to e5 isn't legal for him as our E is on e5.

Actually never mind, this line is irrelevant since he would pull our horse with his camel on 8w instead.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by warren on Mar 8^th, 2009, 10:10am

on 03/05/09 at 12:47:36, chessandgo wrote:

Your new 7g looks promising. Let's build a game tree after that move.

Current (updated) game tree:

7g Dg2n Hg4ws Ec5e CG
.7s hb6sss Cb3s CG
. 8g Ed5ws Mc2n Dd1n. CG
. 8s mg5swe Hf3n Simon
. 9g hb3w Mc3w hd4e Ec4e CG
.7s hd4wws Cb3s Simon
. 8g Ed5ws Mc2n Dd1n.
. 8s mg5swe Hf3n
. 9g hb3w Mc3w Ec4ee Warren
. 8g Ra2n Cb2w Mc2w Ed5e Simon
.7s hd4wwn Cb3n Warren
. 8g Ha6s Ha5s Cb4s Ha4e Warren
.7s hb6ssn Cb3n Warren
.7s mg5ss Dg3e de7s Warren
. 8g Hf3w hd4w Ed5s Dd1n Warren
. 8s Dh3nn mg3en Warren

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by chessandgo on Mar 8^th, 2009, 11:43am

on 03/08/09 at 09:42:08, warren wrote:

Actually never mind, this line is irrelevant since he would pull our horse with his camel on 8w instead.

ah sorry, I had read "e" rather than "w" in your 8g.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by Simon on Mar 8^th, 2009, 6:36pm

OK, what about 7s hd4wws Cb3s as an alternative response to 7g Dg2n Hg4ws Ec5e?

7g Dg2n Hg4ws Ec5e CG
7s hb6sss Cb3s CG
8g Ed5ws Mc2n Dd1n. CG
8s mg5swe Hf3n Simon
9g hb3w Mc3w hd4e Ec4e CG
7s hd4wws Cb3s
8g Ra2n Cb2w Mc2w Ed5e?
7s h->b5 C->b4 Warren
8g Ha6s Ha5s Cb4s Ha4e Warren

Warren, for your 8g h->b5 C->b4 which horse do you have in mind? I suppose we should consider both?

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by warren on Mar 8^th, 2009, 7:53pm

on 03/08/09 at 18:36:52, Simon wrote:

OK, what about 7s hd4wws Cb3s as an alternative response to 7g Dg2n Hg4ws Ec5e?

How about borrowing some moves from the other EH attack line?

7g Dg2n Hg4ws Ec5e
7s hd4wws Cb3s
8g Ed5ws Mc2n Dd1n.
8s mg5swe Hf3n
9g hb3w Mc3w Ec4ee

Note he cannot capture our horse during 9s because his camel would be frozen.

on 03/08/09 at 18:36:52, Simon wrote:

Warren, for your 8g h->b5 C->b4 which horse do you have in mind? I suppose we should consider both?

Excellent question. I had the d horse in mind, i.e.
7s hd4wwn Cb3n
but the b horse move seems comparable:
7s hb6ssn Cb3n

On second thought neither 7s looks like much of a threat.

Another possible line:
7s mg5ss Dg3e de7s
8g Hf3w hd4w Ed5s Dd1n
8s Dh3nn mg3en

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by Simon on Mar 9^th, 2009, 3:40am

Quote:

7g Dg2n Hg4ws Ec5e
7s hd4wws Cb3s
8g Ed5ws Mc2n Dd1n.

Warren, given that 8g I figured Fritzlein might flip the caMel for 8s (moving the Dog doesn't prevent this because now the horse isn't blocking the other side of the elephant)

8s ed3n Mc3e Md3e ed4s

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by RonWeasley on Mar 9^th, 2009, 4:38am

We're making progress but using a lot of time. Closing statements, please.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by warren on Mar 9^th, 2009, 6:27am

on 03/09/09 at 03:40:46, Simon wrote:

Warren, given that 8g I figured Fritzlein might flip the caMel for 8s (moving the Dog doesn't prevent this because now the horse isn't blocking the other side of the elephant)

8s ed3n Mc3e Md3e ed4s

1) Good point Simon; your 8g is better.

2) Closing statement: my favorite so far is Chessandgo's 7g Dg2n Hg4ws Ec5e.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by chessandgo on Mar 9^th, 2009, 10:26am

a few random variations (definitely not a closing statement) :)

7g Dg2n Hg4ws Ec5e
7s hd4wws Cb3s
8g Ed5ws Mc2n Dd1n.
8s mg5swe Hf3n
9g hb3w Mc3w Ec4ee

7s hb6ss Cb3s hb4s
8g Ra2n Cb2w Mc2w Rh2n

7s mg5se Dg3n Hd4e
8g Cb3w Mc2wn Rc1n

7s mg5swe Hf3n
8g Ed5e Mc2n Rc1n Dd1n (among others)

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by Adanac on Mar 9^th, 2009, 6:02pm

on 03/09/09 at 10:26:51, chessandgo wrote:

I like these variations. It seems we can maintain the integrity of our position regardless of how Fritzlein responds. My only quibble is that I would prefer

7g Dg2n Hg4ws Ec5e
7s hd4wws Cb3s
8g Ra2n Cb2w Mc2w Ra3n

in the first scenario rather than moving the elephant back to the west. No big deal though since we can discuss that variation on move 8.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by chessandgo on Mar 10^th, 2009, 1:44am

you're right Greg, your move is probably stronger.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by RonWeasley on Mar 11^th, 2009, 5:12am

It looks like we could voice vote on Dg2n Hg4w Hf4s Ec5e. Either say aye or ask for a regular vote with a full ballot. Count me as an Aye.

[Edit: In the third step the H moves from f4 not h4. Thanx, Oystein!]

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by warren on Mar 11^th, 2009, 5:55am

on 03/11/09 at 05:12:40, RonWeasley wrote:

It looks like we could voice vote on Dg2n Hg4w Hh4s Ec5e. Either say aye or ask for a regular vote with a full ballot. Count me as an Aye.

Aye.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by Adanac on Mar 11^th, 2009, 7:08am

Aye, captain.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by Oystein on Mar 11^th, 2009, 9:28am

on 03/11/09 at 05:12:40, RonWeasley wrote:

It looks like we could voice vote on Dg2n Hg4w Hh4s Ec5e. Either say aye or ask for a regular vote with a full ballot. Count me as an Aye.

I suggest to change the proposed move to Dg2n Hg4w Hf4s Ec5e since there are no horse at h4.

If the change is granted, I say aye.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by camelback on Mar 11^th, 2009, 4:54pm

Aye

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by Simon on Mar 11^th, 2009, 6:59pm

I think we could have discussed more alternatives to the last step. I don't like how it enables freedom of action of the horses, and I don't like the likelihood of our reversing it in move 8. And I'm not convinced we really need it to sufficiently control the camel. But we haven't done more discussion and it's a lot safer to stick with what we have discussed counters to - so aye, I suppose.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by Soter on Mar 12^th, 2009, 1:36am

Aye!

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by RonWeasley on Mar 12^th, 2009, 3:56am

While the 7, or maybe 6 1/2, ayes aren't a lot compared to the 27 registered voters, we always get less than 14 votes when have a full-up vote. So considering the time used, I'm making this move now.

7g Dg2n Hg4w Hf4s Ee5e.

Title: Re: Move 7
Post by chessandgo on Mar 12^th, 2009, 4:32am

in french, "oops" is said "aille", which is pronouced "aye".

So ... "aille" for responding to late, and aye to the coordinator.