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Title: Move 8 Post by Simon on Mar 22nd, 2009, 1:02pm Fritzlein moves 7s mg5s mg4n Dg3n de7s I don't see this move in a quick glance at the anticipated responses in the move 7 thread, |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by Simon on Mar 22nd, 2009, 2:32pm My first instinct was to move E to m, but I didn't see a way to do that and still prevent Fritzlein from threatening our camel next turn. So, I think maybe spend all 4 steps strengthening the c3 trap. Mc2n Dd1n Rc1n Ra2n perhaps? |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by Simon on Mar 22nd, 2009, 2:47pm Er, some of those E to m positions only resulted in an immediate threat to the cat and then the camel after. But it still didn't look all that good to me, though it may be possible to salvage the situation. |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by Hannoskaj on Mar 23rd, 2009, 12:58am As a remark, Fritz's last move do not add up to the attack on the west. So that if it held before, it should hold now, and we might not need timeout for defence, so that we may envision a very agressive move, such as Hc4 Da4 Ec5. By the way, one thing I have not seen mentioned yet, is that the a6 horse may also become a target, especially if our phant is away. Not too much danger as long we can threaten his horses with camel, but we should keep in mind that with an elephant on c4, for example, he needs only three steps to reach b6 (so four if he has a piece to move from there). |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by arimaa_master on Mar 23rd, 2009, 5:03am I suggest 8g Mc2n Rc1n Dd1n Ed5e Mc2n Rc1n - prevents possible EH attack Dd1n - prevents our Camel to be flipped (+ develops dog) Ed5e - goes after camel with possible ED attack after some complications |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by chessandgo on Mar 23rd, 2009, 7:38am The 3 first moves that springs to mind could be AM's move, and two "neutral" moves that just withdraw the Dog: Dd1n Hf3n Dg4s Hf4s or Dd1n Hf3e Dg4w Df4s, depending on whether we prefer Hf3-Dg3 or the converse. These last two seem pretty safe, just leading to a 1 step for 1 step exchange for 7s/8g (de6s for Dd1n, which looks ok for us). After AM's (sharp) move, we have to consider 8s mg5nw Dg4nn, but then for instance 9g Ee5ew mf6s Hf3n looks good (without the Hf3n step, silver could e->d3 h->f4 m->f6). Also there is 8s mg5nn Dg4nn. Then 9g de6n Ee5n Hf3nn looks pretty bloody (9s Dg6e mg7s ed3e hd4e). There is also 9g flip the de6 to e4. Then 9s Dg6e mg7s ed3e de4e look bloody as well. At first sight it might look ok for silver, but I'm not sure at all. Hannoskaj, I don't get what is the move you propose. As for the Ha6, unless our phant gets extremly busy on the east, it's unlikely to be threatened by silver's phant. We might have to keep it in mind indeed, but for the moment no worries I think. |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by Hannoskaj on Mar 23rd, 2009, 2:15pm Quote:
Maybe because I switched right and left... The move I had mentioned was Ef5 Hf4 Dh4. In words: let the west fight for itself, and threaten strongly to take camel hostage. We need only two more steps for that, that is Mb4 Eb5. So that the attack on the west must force us to defend with three or four steps for a while. If he chooses to defend camel, he needs three steps, either by advancing rabbit full in our dog's jaws, or with Db6 Ma5. With an elephant so much in the right, you might understand why I was keeping an eye on Ha6. That was merely an extreme suggestion based on the idea that we are free for one move. Now, let us compare that with other suggestions, and think a little more. For one thing, it defends the dog. if we compare to the suggestions Dd2 Dg3, or Dd2 Df3 Hg3, we have also the defense, but we add threats. On the other hand, the elephant is farther away, and we lose what threats we may have on d4 horse. Notice that just moving the elephant defends dog, so that we may use only two or three steps and keep one or two for reinforcing west, namely Dd2 Ef5 Hf4, or Ef5 + 2 steps. I do not find a good idea for defense in the west with two steps. If we commit to this kind of plan, I think that a local analysis of c3 and f6/f3 trap would be enlightening, under the hypothesis that pieces do not switch quadrants: if one elephant is forced to defense after such commitments, I guess his side is not well. By local analysis, I also mean that we also try to get lines with few steps, with the idea that th other steps are used on the other side. Of course, this is if there is no defense of camel, otherwise our elephant is free to step back. Well, mainly food for thought. With regards to arimaa_master's suggestion, it sure requires analysis (my reflex would really be to pull the dog). It could be very good, though. I especially like the way it makes it difficult for the d4 horse to cross by c4; the Gold camel is hard to make go away here. |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by chessandgo on Mar 23rd, 2009, 3:38pm oh ok, got you. Very interesting indeed, another sharp move. I guess the question is how hb6sss Cb3s turns out. We have the M to b2 ressource, and then ... Looks very tense. The Hf3n step in your 8g could also be an Hf3e step. As far as the Ha6 is concerned, I still don't think it's likely to be threatened, silver has to dodge a camel capture on the other wing, and even if he gets back his camel, then our Elephant is always within reach of c5 is in one move. |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by chessandgo on Mar 25th, 2009, 1:52pm on 03/22/09 at 14:32:50, Simon wrote:
Oh and btw Simon, if we don't move our Elephant, silver will certainly drag our Dg4, so the step Ed5e will become mandatory. Hence better play this step right now, as in AM's move; and when silver pulls the Dg4 anyway, we're happy not to have to play a Ra2n step, but rather some other step instead to fight the eastern battle. Hannoskaj's idea is definitely very interesting, after 8g Ed5ee Hf3e (this looks more natural than Hf3n, although the latter might turn out to be better, in a case of a remote camel hostage maybe) Dg4e 8s hb6sss Cb2s 9g Ra2n Cb2w Mc2w x (Ra3n or Dh4n) 9s ed3sw x (hd4w or hd4s maybe) x (maybe hh7s if we hadn't player Dh4n on previous move, or maybe cg8s, or rb7s or ...), the position is really wild. We can get an m hostage on the east, but it's rather unclear as our c3 trap is under silver's control, which makes it easier for silver to defend f3 with h +d for instance. It might look ok ... Silver can also withdaw his camel (and giving a "free" camel hostage would be most un-Fritzlein-ish), with 8s rh7ss mg5s x (maybe hb6s) (or same move on 9s in some lines). Actually even though this rabbit advance looks optically bad as the rabbit just gets stuck on our Dh4, it might not be such a problem for silver, as his h-rabbit is happy to advance in many cases to support the g-file camel. For instance, we can play Mc3n Rc1n Dd1n x, hoping to defend strongly the west without the phant's help to be able to draw the rh5 to f3, but silver might have a crazy move like hb5ss Cb3s x (rb8s maybe), advancing his horse right onto our caMel. We actually might have trouble holding this horse hostage, as the elephant can always cross c3 to dislodge our caMel. The ehh vs m fight looks rather unclear but will ultimately turn silver's way if our Elephant does not come back to rescue. Maybe I'm just hallucinating, but as crazy as it might seem, this possibility of silver attacking the west in spite of our caMel being there looks a bit frightening, and might be Fritzl's idea behind his horse to d4 manoeuver. In any case, Hannoskaj move looks promising as silver might have to do unnatural things to meet it, so maybe we can find precise defenses against the western ehh attack that gives us the edge. What do you guys think? |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by warren on Mar 25th, 2009, 7:43pm I don't like the idea of him owning our c3 trap with EHH after 8g E->f5 H->g3 D->h4. CG 8s hb6sss Cb3s CG 9g Ra2n Cb2w Mc2w x (Ra3n or Dh4n) CG Him taking our dog hostage after 8g Mc2n Rc1n Dd1n Ed5e AM 8s mg5nn Dg4nn doesn't look great for us either. I'm therefore leaning towards the boring 8g Dd1n Hf3n Dg4s Hf4s CG which trades a step for a step. What's he likely to reply to that with? Perhaps he'll just pull our dog again? |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by warren on Mar 26th, 2009, 8:04am What about allocating two steps each to saving our dog and protecting our c3 trap: 8g Mc2n Rc1n Hf3e Dg4e ? |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by RonWeasley on Mar 26th, 2009, 10:12am Are feeling close to a vote? No obvious front runner is appearing, but discussion is sparse. It's going to be hard for me to generate voting over the weekend so I would like to start voting either Friday mid-day or Monday. If we really want to start over the weekend, I can send the list of addresses to a volunteer. |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by chessandgo on Mar 26th, 2009, 11:13am yes, discussion is sparse. If we want to play a quiet move, getting the Dg4 back to g3 or f3, we can play very quickly as there are very few choices for the last step and little risks. If we want to go for a more agressive move, like Hannoskaj's idea, we need to put in a lot more thought about it though. Personally, I feel it would be a shame to pass on the opportunity. Maybe we'll conclude that it's too risky in the end, but it might also prove a very good spot to launch the fight, so I'd be for taking more time to sort it out. |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by Hannoskaj on Mar 26th, 2009, 2:08pm Well, under closer examination, I really dislike what happens in the west on my and related moves: If allowed, 8s Hsss cw 9g Ra2n Cb2w Mw x (and it's difficult to find a good x) 9s Esw Hd4s x and the only defense losing camel, short of getting the elephant back and let again his camel wreck east, lies in the three steps Mn he Ms (or putting our camel north and getting IT hostage...), that he can undo in one step. Beurk. An almost interesting try would be to defend shallowly west on 9g, with Me Rn, and push his camel toward our trap. He then has time to take our sacrificed rabbit and defend c3. After that we can finish the hostage position, but I think we are not that well-off. On the other hand, even with our elephant on e5, I would fear the chessandgo's suggestion. That is, on ArimaaMaster's move 8g Ee Mn Rc1n Dn I think that 8s Hsss cs is very disagreeable. 9g hw Mw Ee Hf3e(or n) 9s Rh7ss Mn He 10g Ha6ssw x (De or Ee) maybe ? Well, it looks better than what I feared. And 9s He Eww Mn 10g silver camel to c4, looks horribly complicated, but might be better for us. So AM's move looks ok. A brand new possibility (let is muddy waters a little more) would be 8g Es he Mn Rn or 8g Es he He De with the idea to move the horse who would be controlling c4 from that playing field. Second move also protects partly the dog and directly threaten horse. Variations: 8g Es he Mn Rn 8s camel flip to e3 9g Hf3 moves... 8g Es he He De 8s Hsss cs 9g Ew Mnw hw looks good 8s Ee He xx does not look dangerous with the elephant on that side, and EH on c3 should now be efficiently covered by camel. 8s Ee Men dn 9g Eew hws looks critical. Is the horse bad enough long enough to give time to the elephant to rescue dog ? Or should we settle for the same HD formation one line above (that is play soon Hnn Ds Hs) ? |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by chessandgo on Mar 26th, 2009, 2:58pm you mention 8s Hsss cw 9g Ra2n Cb2w Mw x Hannoskaj. x can be Ra3n. Then we can save our caMel on next move with only two steps (Ca2n Mb2w), hence with two steps to push the camel to g4, we don't lose material. |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by Adanac on Mar 28th, 2009, 6:09pm I’ve been busy this week, and am just beginning my analysis now. I haven’t seen this possibility discussed yet: 8g Ed5e Ee5e Mc2n Rc1n (freeze silver camel, protect SW trap) If: 8s ed3s Mc3e Md3e ed2n (gold camel flip to e3) then we drag the silver camel to f4 on 9g with a huge advantage positional advantage. Since he effectively cannot play the camel flip, aren’t we gaining a huge tempo by freezing his camel while activating ours? Our southwest trap is secure for the foreseeable future and I assume Karl will have to retreat the camel. Eventually I’d like to get our camel to b4 (a few moves from now), but only after we’ve blocked the possibility of the silver elephant crossing over to the b3 square. i.e. get rabbits on a3 and b2 before we think of moving the camel to b4. |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by Hannoskaj on Mar 29th, 2009, 2:18am Quote:
Yes I like it. One thing I had not yet paid attention to, is that if he pushes his rabbit to h5, our east wing is more secure without the elephant: with Dh4 Hg3, we can undo in one step any pull by the camel: he would have to move again the rabbit before taking action. Another theme I have been looking at quite a lot (in fact that was one of the main ideas of my latest suggestions with Es he) is the fact that with Dd1n E pushes horse to e3, then there is almost no defense against the loss of the horse. Ex: 8g Rc1n Mn Eee 8s Rh7ss Mn Hb6s 9g Dd1n Dg4e Esw (threaten h to e3) feels very comfortable (ex: 9s Hd4w Hb5ss cs 10g Eww hw[or n of we do not want them to flee] He [Edit: Ce2n] looks even better) Now I think i would reply, as Silver: 8s Rh7ss Mn Hd4w That renews the camel flip threat, and it's hard to defend against it while tucking the g4 dog out of the way (so with three steps). Maybe 9g Dg4e Es (to have time for Ec4 hn(or e) on next move, in case of his Hsss) Dd1n Ce2n ? By the way, on AM's move, since I think our attack is very good after Hnn dnn 9g En dn Hnn, I would probably play on the two sides: 8s Ms ds Hd4w and maybe Hb5s. If we start EH attack, it's slightly weaker than with the dog already pulled or even hostage, and our elephant is far from west incase for example of camel flip. Meanwhile, if we simply retreat dog, east is still vulnerable if we have to call back the phant. |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by warren on Mar 29th, 2009, 9:37am on 03/29/09 at 02:18:38, Hannoskaj wrote:
Your 8s and 9g moves do not appear legal as there is no horse on b5 nor dog on b4. Do you mean the silver horse on b6 and the gold dog on g4? Update: Adanac's 8g Ed5e Ee5e Mc2n Rc1n seems solid and is my current favorite. |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by Hannoskaj on Mar 29th, 2009, 10:18am Quote:
Yes to both. Edited. |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by Adanac on Mar 29th, 2009, 10:50am on 03/29/09 at 02:18:38, Hannoskaj wrote:
Note: I've changed "b4 dog" to "g4 dog" above, which I believe was the intent Yes, that’s a very interesting suggestion for 8s in response to 8g Ed5e Ee5e Mc2n Rc1n. On the one hand, the silver horse is walking right into danger by freezing itself on c4, tying the silver elephant to the c3 trap. However, we won’t be able to create a fast enough threat near the f3 trap to prevent the camel flip. We do have plenty of creative options at our disposal such as 9g Dg4e Ef5e Hf3w Dd1n, preventing the camel flip and keeping the e3 horse safe due to threats against the silver camel & horse. We also have the option of 9g Ef5w Ee5w de6s Dg4s. That position is quite chaotic, but at least we’re holding the southwest trap while creating a new threat on the east side… |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by Hannoskaj on Mar 29th, 2009, 11:46am Quote:
Décidément... Quote:
And the e3 horse has the funny consequence that the "Come on, I fear you not" answer by Silver that would be 9s Hb6sss cs 10g hw Mw Ha6ss 10s Eww mn x( for ex. De6s) loses to Me hs He3w Rb1e. |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by Simon on Mar 29th, 2009, 7:31pm Adanac, looks like you have found a way to move E to m (like my first inpulse was to do) without unduly endangering the c3 trap (which is what made me abandon that idea). I withdraw my suggestion and support yours. I'm not completely happy though...our threat to the camel doesn't seem strong enough to really force Fritzlein to act in the east. So I'm worried that he will focus on the west, and if he can generate enough of a threat there to force us to act there at the expense of not doing anything to the camel, then he wins since he has the greater forces in the west. |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by RonWeasley on Mar 30th, 2009, 4:30am Discussion has been good, but we are using up our reserve. Let's vote Tuesday. |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by jdb on Mar 31st, 2009, 5:18am Quote:
This move looks good to me. I couldn't find a killer move for silver, and it gives him enough of a chance to make a mistake. Unless someone finds a crushing reply, it gets my vote. |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by chessandgo on Mar 31st, 2009, 8:15am I'm away and I can't load the game board it seems :-( From what I recall, Greg's move is really nice, I had not thought about flipping the m to f4 after silver flips our own caMel, just about pushing it to g4 which lead to disaster as silver could just push our M to f3 and attack the c3 trap next. If you guys think after m flipped to f4 the position holds, I trust you and vote for this :-) |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by Simon on Mar 31st, 2009, 8:38am It's not a flip, but a pull (E goes to e4). But it looks good. |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by chessandgo on Apr 1st, 2009, 8:48am on 03/31/09 at 08:38:29, Simon wrote:
ahh I thought about E staying on f5. |
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Title: Re: Move 8 Post by RonWeasley on Apr 2nd, 2009, 3:32am TheMob nearly unanimously chooses Mc2n Rc1n Ed5e Ee5e. Only 9 voters. We are a small rabble. |
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