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Title: Move 16 Post by Simon on Jul 11th, 2009, 7:46pm Fritzlein has moved quickly this time: 15s he5e hf5s cc7w rc8s |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by Adanac on Jul 12th, 2009, 5:56am My first instinct is 16g Cb4e Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n to get some counter-play going in the northwest. I can't realistically see us getting an attack going anytime soon so I'm hoping that someone else has a more forcing plan. |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by Simon on Jul 12th, 2009, 9:57am If an aggressive move is what you're after, what about: 16g Dh4w cg5w Dg4n Dg5n edit: on second thought, I don't like this since if we move the horse up (as I was thinking of as a response to him sending the horse back and cat forward), he can free the camel. |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by mdk on Jul 12th, 2009, 10:22am on 07/12/09 at 05:56:48, Adanac wrote:
So I've been lurking for a while in the spare minutes I have every now and then. 16g Cb4e Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n 16s he3e Re2n Re3w he3w and it looks to me like gold could have problems as the camel is now blocked from easily threatening the silver horses. |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by Adanac on Jul 12th, 2009, 10:57am on 07/12/09 at 10:22:20, mdk wrote:
That's an interesting 16s move that I hadn't thought of. But I think we're still doing fine because the time that Fritzlein would use to block out our camel can be used to attack in the northwest: 17g Cc4n Hb6e rc7e Hc6n 17s dd6s Cc5s dd5w cb7s 18g Dd1w Dc1w Db1n Db2n 18s ed4n de6s de5s de4w It's a bit complicated and our camel has definitely been compromised by the rabbit but I still think that we have some decent tactical opportunities here. |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by aaaa on Jul 12th, 2009, 7:44pm After several hours of analysis, my bot would want to play 16g Mc3e he3n Md3e Cd2n. |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by Hannoskaj on Jul 13th, 2009, 12:34am on 07/12/09 at 19:44:09, aaaa wrote:
That's clearly a very forcing possibility, that I had thought about. I am not sure I like our camel being very cramped after 16s cd3s Ed4s me3e Ed3e (almost forced). One step I think worth considering is Hf2n with the strategical threat of pulling horse with camel and play Hf3e3 on next move; but I did not find how to use the other steps coherently. |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by Adanac on Jul 13th, 2009, 4:18am on 07/13/09 at 00:34:51, Hannoskaj wrote:
But what if the elephant then pulls our horse to e4 on 18s and the silver horse returns to e3? Or Fritz could use mdk's idea of flipping our rabbit to d3 17s which would leave our horse on f3 with nowhere to go. |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by jdb on Jul 13th, 2009, 10:39am ArimaaBuf defeated clueless about 200 times by taking the camel hostage. His plan was to attack the diagonal trap right away. So to that end, 16g Mc3n Mc4n Mc5n Cb4n The follow up would be to advance a rabbit on the next move. |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by arimaa_master on Jul 14th, 2009, 1:28am on 07/13/09 at 10:39:29, jdb wrote:
I like this move too 16g Mc3n Mc4n Mc5n Cb4n |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by Adanac on Jul 14th, 2009, 3:58am on 07/13/09 at 10:39:29, jdb wrote:
Can you show a sample game? It doesn't seem obvious to me that we have a strong attack. For example, 16g Mc3n Mc4n Mc5n Cb4n 16s dd6n rb8e ed4n ed5n 17g Ra2n Ra3n Ra4n Mc6s 17s ed6s Mc5w ed5w dd7s The final step of 17g was intended to avoid 17s de6e df6e ed6s Mc6e. But now I don't see how we can proceed. Unless we were supposed to sacrifice the camel? 16g Mc3n Mc4n Mc5n Cb4n 16s dd6n rb8e ed4n ed5n 17g Ra2n Ra3n Ra4n Cc4n 17s de6e df6e ed6s Mc6e 18g cb7n Hb6n rc7s rc6x Hb7e 18s Md6e ed5n cb8s cb7s Did I miss a stronger attacking line? |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by jdb on Jul 14th, 2009, 5:23am on 07/14/09 at 03:58:31, Adanac wrote:
I'll look thru ArimaaBuff's games tonight and try and find some games that are similar to the Mob game. 16g Mc3n Mc4n Mc5n Cb4n 16s dd6n rb8e ed4n ed5n As you said, 17s de6e df6e ed6s Mc6e is threatened. 17g Cb5e Hb6s Mc6w rc7s 17g Ra2n Ra3n Mc6s rc7s |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by RonWeasley on Jul 15th, 2009, 7:15am It would be nice for my schedule if we voted beginning Thursday. Are we near consensus? I like pressing at c6, although I would prefer keeping the camel back to threaten the flood at f3. The problem is I don't see a good move to do this, so maybe that's a bad plan. After 16g Mc3n Mc4n Mc5n Cb4n, how do we respond to 16s ed4n ed5w dd6s dd5s? An alternate plan is to get the c2 horse onto a better square for the hostage, like e3 or f4. A move like 16g Mc3e Md3w he3w Hf2n is tactically risky, but works toward that goal. |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by chessandgo on Jul 16th, 2009, 1:58am how about flipping the cb7 to b5? __________ I don't understand the plans to attack c6 with the caMel, as Ron and Greg say when our camel is gone silver can defend c6 with his elephant as his horses have hold of f3 if the caMel is not there to dislodge them. It's our caMel that's going to be in trouble next. ________________ Seems to me that silver should not be able to stop us from quickly hostaging the cat around c3 after 16g Hb6w cb7s cb6s Ha6e and would have to defend with e to d3 within a couple moves. That would be a large deadlock. Not sure who it'd be good for. Depends wether we can create quick counterplay on the wings or not. Maybe not ... The threat would be that silver manages to get a dominating position around c3 with his elephant while preventing our caMel from messing with the eastern horses. For instance: 16g Hb6w cb7s cb6s Ha6e 16s ed4s rb8s ra8e dd6s 17g Cb4w cb5s Hb6s Rh2n next we will hostage the cb4 on b2 or a3, and silver might try to fight around c3 with ed against MH. ____________ 16g Mc3e he3n Md3e Cd2n 16s cd3s Ed4s me3e Ed3e brings a different kind of game, where we no longer have the advantage on the western wing, as silver will bring a horse there, it'll be h vs H. This said, it prevents silver's plan above to try to fight on the west with ed vs MH (not sure wether this plan is doable in the first place). Basically the two sides have similar position, the difference being that silver's camel is hostaged while ours is not (even though it's not very active on the hostage wing, at least it's got a bit of freedom). All in all, even though it's perplexing to bring the camel on the eastern wing, it might give us a small advantage. So if we find that all other options are bad (I wouldn't think they are), we still have that plan to fall on. ____________ We can also consider rotating our caMel right away towards e2. Not sure how to rate that either. Seems to me that we have several options available, maybe calling for different games, maybe we want to take a few extra days even though our reserve is rather low (2d14h left for this move with 10d reserve)? |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by Adanac on Jul 17th, 2009, 3:06am on 07/16/09 at 01:58:02, chessandgo wrote:
I think we can build up our reserves quickly when we have a self-evident move (such as a capture move or an obvious positional move like 12g) but we’re now at a critical juncture of the game where we should have a serious debate about our long-term objectives. The decision we make now will have a serious impact about the future direction of the game. It would also be nice to know Fritzlein’s strategy. I have no clue what he’s planning to do next but I’ll guess that he wants to put a rabbit on f3 and place a dog on f4 to rotate his horse to the west side. So, I’m guessing something like this: 16s ed4s rf7s rf6s rf8s 17s hf4e rf5s rf4s hg4w 18s de6s de5s hf4n de4e If so, then we do have the luxury of building pressure slowly on the west side because Karl’s plan is also very slow. I’m not a big fan of dragging pieces back to our c3 trap because I’ve personally had little success in games where all of the action is around my own home traps. I’d prefer to use the next few moves to build up pressure for an attack against the c6 trap. We can quickly bring in a cat and rabbit, and then eventually a second dog and a rabbit. |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by chessandgo on Jul 17th, 2009, 1:47pm I agree with you Greg that dragging the cat gives silver time to establish a firmer grip around f3 and advance the whole army, but on the other hand attacking around c6 immediately with the caMel looks undoable. We would need to create some trouble around c6 before our caMel can sefely come into play there (so that silver's elephant coming back doesn't allow him to take a hostage and capture it on c6.) Imagine we achieve the following position compared with the actual game: cb7 to b2, Dd1 to b3. Silver would be in deep trouble with the elephant tied in d3 (otherwise either the caMel would deal with the he3 or the cat would be captured on c3), we have hostages on both sides, and still attacking prospects with H+Rs around c6. Basically, the only way for silver to make progress after having locked f3 (which we cannot prevent) is to toy with freedom left for his elephant around c3 and c6 if possible. Having a hostage on b3 would severely restrain it. Now I agree that having both our hometraps contested is pretty frightening, if we slip and let silver's dominating elephant get a capture Karl will wrap up the game. Going for the H+R's attack right now looks interesting as well. I don't know what to say, but not having the cb7 in the way but rather safely hostaged around c3 would be a huge help. Not sure to which extent it's really doable though. :( I think in any case we need to get our H to c7 if we want a serious attack around c6. The good thing with flipping the cat to b5 is that it does not lose that much time, as silver needs to blockade b7 again with at least two steps to prevent H to c7 next (actually maybe more, for instance 16g Hb6w cb7s cb6s Ha6e 16s rb8s ra8e rf7s rf6s 17g Hb6w Ha6e ra7s Ra2n and we have forced a way for H to c7 on next move). As you say the other way is to advance more pieces, including one to c5 and cross through c6 to play H to c7 if silver doesn't blockade the way with an extra piece on c6. One problem is that silver can control c5 with a dog, we have nothing to match that, only Cat and Rabbits for the moment. And if we could manage the two things at the same time (dragging the cat back while threatening to get our H accross the 7th rank) that would be optimal. So I've talked myself into liking the cat flip it seems :) not sure if I convinced anyone else :) but if in the end it's the move that blows it all by having us fall behind in the race that will not be that surprising :-( Anyway, lots of options here, looking forward to see more discussion :) Jean |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by Adanac on Jul 17th, 2009, 3:29pm on 07/17/09 at 13:47:43, chessandgo wrote:
OK Jean, you've convinced me with the cat flip. The best thing that I like about the cat is that it forces Karl to divert 2 steps to the northwest that you'd rather use in the southeast ;D I also like the fact that we now have a guaranteed path to c7 if we choose. I don't know if that will be necessary on 17g but extra options always help! |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by Adanac on Jul 20th, 2009, 3:04am It's been 2 days without any replies. I guess it's time to vote? |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by RonWeasley on Jul 20th, 2009, 4:23am I can support the cat flip too, since I'm not fond of the camel advance. I will begin the vote today. Simultaneously, I call for voice votes on the cat flip. If we get 6 voice votes for, without any any against, I will abandon the vote and make the cat flip move. This may but us some time. Currently, I have 3 voice votes for the cat flip: mine, chessandgo's, and Adanac's. I will not be available from Friday (24th) until the following Tuesday (27th). I'm hoping we won't need to vote during that time. This is a busy time for me with the movie playing in so many places and me being in so many scenes. Sorry I can't say hi to you guys when you're watching, but I'm supposed to follow the script. |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by jdb on Jul 20th, 2009, 5:25am I vote to flip the cat. |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by Soter on Jul 21st, 2009, 2:00am Yup, flip the cat. |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by chessandgo on Jul 21st, 2009, 2:52am on 07/20/09 at 04:23:45, RonWeasley wrote:
:) |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by camelback on Jul 21st, 2009, 8:48am Count me in for flipping the cat :) |
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Title: Re: Move 16 Post by RonWeasley on Jul 21st, 2009, 8:55am That makes 6. The cat gets flipped. We're not exactly sure of ourselves here. I think we need to buy Fritzlein's book and find out what to do. |
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