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        Team Games >> 2009 One vs TheMob >> Move 17
        
(Message started by: Simon on Jul 24th, 2009, 7:24pm)
Title: Move 17
Post by Simon on Jul 24th, 2009, 7:24pm
Fritzlein has moved:

16s cg5s rf7e rg7s rg6s
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by Adanac on Jul 26th, 2009, 7:19am

on 07/24/09 at 19:24:45, Simon wrote:
Fritzlein has moved:

16s cg5s rf7e rg7s rg6s


My suggestion for 17g is the same as my proposal for 16g:

17g Cb4e Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n

Fritzlein is also playing a slow strategy, so we should have plenty of time for:

18g Dd1wwnn
followed by taking the cat hostage with our dog while also using other pieces to build an attack in the northwest.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by Adanac on Jul 26th, 2009, 7:22am

on 07/26/09 at 07:19:07, Adanac wrote:
My suggestion for 17g is the same as my proposal for 16g:

17g Cb4e Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n

Fritzlein is also playing a slow strategy, so we should have plenty of time for:

18g Dd1wwnn
followed by taking the cat hostage with our dog while also using other pieces to build an attack in the northwest.


Or, alternatively, we could flip a cat to h3 in order to slow down his plans on the eastern front?  I'm just throwing the idea out there, but I'm normally inclined towards the direct attack rather than the prophylactic moves  ;)
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by arimaa_master on Jul 27th, 2009, 12:21am

on 07/26/09 at 07:22:29, Adanac wrote:
Or, alternatively, we could flip a cat to h3 in order to slow down his plans on the eastern front?  I'm just throwing the idea out there, but I'm normally inclined towards the direct attack rather than the prophylactic moves  ;)


Flip cat to h3 seems fine to me:

17g Eg3w cg4s cg3e Ef3e
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by chessandgo on Jul 27th, 2009, 2:03am
I'm not fond of the cat flip. I understand that Fritzl wanted to block our Dh4, to prevent us from sneaking in with D+R, but if we flip the c to h3, I don't think that silver even needs to reestablish the blockade, as our Rh2 is blocked in anyway, and sneaking the Dh4 in towards g6 should not be possible as the hf4 will soon be rotated off the f3 blockade and get ready to capture the advanced Dog. The only way we could profit with it later is if we attack f6 (with Hb6 towards f7 through the 7th rank for instance, but that seems a long shot to me.

Other than that the position is very tough, silver's plan should be rf8 to f3 (or maybe flipping our Re2 to f3??), and next look for an opportunity to go for a c6 capture with the elephant, while we might just achieve a rabbit capture on f3 in the meantime. So far I've not seen anything thrilling for us.

I wonder whether there is a quicker way to get the Dd1 into play than through the b-file (through the c-file for instance). It depends whether we intend it to go to b3 or to attack c6. I think we would need it to attack c6, as our caMel should stay around c3 to be mess with the he3 as soon as silver's elephant leaves the center.

So rather than Greg's plan we might also want to consider the Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1nnn (Mb3e Rb2e?) plan. One problem is that with the caMel one extra step away from e3 silver's elephant is a bit more free to go try a c6 capture, the specifics look very complicated (which they will be anyway, even with the M on c3). The other problem is that it mmight be harder to get a proper hostage this way, I'm not sure exactly.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by jdb on Jul 27th, 2009, 5:33pm
I've been looking at the position for a while.

Fritz on his next move can play the disturbing,

17s rg5w rf5w re5s ed4s

I wonder how this move would work out:

17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Me3e

It looks a little weird, but it forces silver to bring his elephant to defend f3. The position is very unusual after that, and I am not sure what the proper follow up would be.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by chessandgo on Jul 28th, 2009, 6:21am

on 07/27/09 at 17:33:34, jdb wrote:
I've been looking at the position for a while.

Fritz on his next move can play the disturbing,

17s rg5w rf5w re5s ed4s


Could you elaborate why you find this move disturbing? Indeed Fritzl can move his e to d3 if wants to, but I'd say leaving it on d4 seems more dangerous for us as it's closer to c6, and I don't understand why bring the rg5 to e4. To my eyes the rg5 blocks our Dh4, and an advancing rabbit for silver would rather go to f3 rather than on e4. What am I missing about this move?


on 07/27/09 at 17:33:34, jdb wrote:
I wonder how this move would work out:

17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Me3e

It looks a little weird, but it forces silver to bring his elephant to defend f3. The position is very unusual after that, and I am not sure what the proper follow up would be.


I remember this move being proposed for last move. I think it was a viable alternative as the caMel would have ended up on g4, but now that g4 is blockaded our caMel is going to end up blockaded inside the south-eastern corner when silver completes the swarm around f3.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by jdb on Jul 28th, 2009, 1:00pm
I was hoping for something like

17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Me3e
17s ed4s ed3e de6s de5e
18g cb5e Hb6s cc5s Hb5e

And now silver has to either give up the cat or allow gold's camel to sit on f4.

It seems like silver wants to defend the f3 trap without using his elephant. This is just a line of play that forces the elephant to stay around the f3 trap.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by Simon on Jul 28th, 2009, 4:11pm

Quote:
17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Me3e
17s ed4s ed3e de6s de5e
18g cb5e Hb6s cc5s Hb5e


I think a far more likely 17s would be ed4s ed3e he4w hd4s.

Fritzlein doesn't have to block the camel from f4 because if we move the camel to f4 he can just grab it with the elephant and eventually capture it in f6. Is this not correct?
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by chessandgo on Jul 29th, 2009, 3:46am
yeah, I agree with Simon that if we get Mf4 then silver is likely to be able to push it to f5 quickly (he will defend f3 with his e indeed and cover c3 with a horse).

For instance
17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Me3e
17s ed4s ed3e rf8s he4w

We can't M to f4, and silver will quickly be able to put pieces on f5+e4, and in the long run likely be able to rotate the phant out of a huge center blockade. This does not look promising at all to me.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by jdb on Jul 29th, 2009, 5:11am

on 07/28/09 at 16:11:21, Simon wrote:
I think a far more likely 17s would be ed4s ed3e he4w hd4s.

Fritzlein doesn't have to block the camel from f4 because if we move the camel to f4 he can just grab it with the elephant and eventually capture it in f6. Is this not correct?


Good point.

I also tried moving the cat north to d3, but it was pretty much the same result.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by RonWeasley on Jul 30th, 2009, 4:09am
I'm looking at 17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Hf2n.

Continuing:
17s ed4s he4w Me3n ed3e
18g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Hc7e
18s Me4n ee3n hd4s hd3e
19g dd6w dc6x Hd7s de6e df6x Hd6e

or

18s rc8s rf8s Me4n ee3n
19g Hd7e rf7n He7e Hf3w

Tactics are sharp and there may be a crushing silver move I don't see.  If silver chooses not to go after the camel, gold moves the f3 horse to e3 and we are stable again.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by jdb on Jul 30th, 2009, 5:44am

on 07/30/09 at 04:09:21, RonWeasley wrote:
I'm looking at 17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Hf2n.

Continuing:
17s ed4s he4w Me3n ed3e
18g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Hc7e
18s Me4n ee3n hd4s hd3e
19g dd6w dc6x Hd7s de6e df6x Hd6e

or

18s rc8s rf8s Me4n ee3n
19g Hd7e rf7n He7e Hf3w

Tactics are sharp and there may be a crushing silver move I don't see.  If silver chooses not to go after the camel, gold moves the f3 horse to e3 and we are stable again.


I let clueless take a look at things. The 17s you gave is what clueless wants to play. It doesn't see your 18g. It could not find a crushing move for silver on 18s (after your 18g). So this move is worth a closer look.

I'll let clueless run on 18s today and see what it comes up with.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by Simon on Jul 30th, 2009, 4:35pm
I like it, (unless there's a good counter), it looks like it gets us out of the current strategic quagmire. However,while the tactics are sharp on our side (that brilliant double dog threat) they are much less sharp on the other side. For example, our camel will likely get stuck cut off from reinforcements except for the horse, so if Fritzlein can safely extract the elephant with the camel still attached to it from f3, he can eventually hostage one of the horse and camel with only the other to protect it, and then capture one or both. This will take awhile, so I wouldn't trust clueless to find it.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by jdb on Jul 30th, 2009, 4:51pm
17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Hf2n.
17s ed4s he4w Me3n ed3e
18g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Hc7e

Clueless thought about:

D:13 02:36:11 -3605        rg5w rh6w dd6s de6e Hd7s Hf3s Hd6e He6s cb5n dd5w dc5s hd4s
D:13 04:29:29 -1777        rg5w dd6s de6n hd4w Hd7s Hf3s Hd6e He6s rf8s hc4n Cb4e
D:13 05:09:20 277          rg5w rf8s dd6s hd4s Hf3s Hd7s dd5e Hd6s hf4s rf5s de5e hd3n Cd2n
D:13 07:40:16 453          rg5w rf8s dd6s hd4w Hd7s Hf3s dd5w Hd6s hc4e Cb4e ra7e rb7e Hd5e
D:13 08:58:48 464          rg5w cg4n dd6s hd4w Hd7s de6e Hd6e He6s cg5n cb5w hc4n Cb4e Rc2n

In a position like this all clueless will find are short term tactical shots. It will have no idea about the correct strategy.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by RonWeasley on Jul 31st, 2009, 10:04am
We are now into our reserve.  Do we vote now or discuss more?
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by RonWeasley on Jul 31st, 2009, 10:11am

on 07/30/09 at 16:35:42, Simon wrote:
I like it, (unless there's a good counter), it looks like it gets us out of the current strategic quagmire. However,while the tactics are sharp on our side (that brilliant double dog threat) they are much less sharp on the other side. For example, our camel will likely get stuck cut off from reinforcements except for the horse, so if Fritzlein can safely extract the elephant with the camel still attached to it from f3, he can eventually hostage one of the horse and camel with only the other to protect it, and then capture one or both. This will take awhile, so I wouldn't trust clueless to find it.

If the sliver e tries to back out with the gold M, I am hoping gold can at least stay even in the "piece race" by capturing at f3.  It's sharp, but I can't find a way silver can prevent this.

If Fritz agrees with this, I expect him to keep to try to get e on d3, h on e3 and f4.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by jdb on Jul 31st, 2009, 3:31pm

on 07/31/09 at 10:11:09, RonWeasley wrote:
If the sliver e tries to back out with the gold M, I am hoping gold can at least stay even in the "piece race" by capturing at f3.  It's sharp, but I can't find a way silver can prevent this.

If Fritz agrees with this, I expect him to keep to try to get e on d3, h on e3 and f4.


When looking at the lines clueless was wanting to play,

after the 18g moving the horse to d7, many lines have the horse on d7 moving into the centre of the board to free up the camel. I don't have time tonight, but I'll try and post a few lines in the morning. They were all extremely sharp.

Edit: Not enough time to post any lines today.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by Simon on Jul 31st, 2009, 3:56pm

on 07/31/09 at 10:11:09, RonWeasley wrote:
If the sliver e tries to back out with the gold M, I am hoping gold can at least stay even in the "piece race" by capturing at f3.  It's sharp, but I can't find a way silver can prevent this.

If Fritz agrees with this, I expect him to keep to try to get e on d3, h on e3 and f4.


What I had meant by safe was avoiding any captures. I figured that an exchange would favour us, but it would be a good idea to check to see if he has a way to make it favour him.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by chessandgo on Aug 2nd, 2009, 12:14pm

on 07/30/09 at 04:09:21, RonWeasley wrote:
I'm looking at 17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Hf2n.

Continuing:
17s ed4s he4w Me3n ed3e
18g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Hc7e
18s Me4n ee3n hd4s hd3e
19g dd6w dc6x Hd7s de6e df6x Hd6e

or

18s rc8s rf8s Me4n ee3n
19g Hd7e rf7n He7e Hf3w

Tactics are sharp and there may be a crushing silver move I don't see.  If silver chooses not to go after the camel, gold moves the f3 horse to e3 and we are stable again.


There are many things I don't get. I don't understand why we play this 17g; we could for the sake of comparison play your 18g directly and keep 17g as a forcing move in reserve if we want later on to get this Me4/ee3 pattern (which I dont understand how it could be good for us actually). I don't get the last step of 17g either, why move the H to f3? If we passed this last step silver would push the M to e4 just as well I think. And unless I'm mistaken the second 18s proposed gives a horse capture to gold?

Continuing your moves silver could play 18s rf8s rc8s cb5n x for instance threatening Me4n ee3 Hd4se, I'm not sure what's the point for gold.

edit: I think I still like 17g Mc3w Rc2w Dd1w Dc1n or things like this with the idea of shoving the Dc2 towards c7 as quickly as possible
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by Simon on Aug 2nd, 2009, 4:50pm
I don't know what others have in mind, but one plan would be to try to unfreeze the camel and force a capture race.

If we don't do that I agree we need to get the dog in the battle, but I'm afraid Fritzlein will be able to rotate a horse out of the swarm and when that happens I don't think we'll have sufficient forces even with the dog.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by camelback on Aug 2nd, 2009, 9:36pm
I continued a few lines from c&g as below.
-----1-----
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b rf8s rf7s rf6s de6s
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b ed4w hf4s rf5s de5e
19w Mb3e Mc3e he3n Md3e
19b he4n he5w ec4e ed4e
-----2------
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b rf8s rf7s rf6s de6s
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b hf4w rf5s rf4s he4e
19w Hb6e dd6e Hc6e Mb3e

-----3-------
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b de6s de5s hf4s de4e
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b ed4w Dc5e ec4n rf8s
19w Mb3e Mc3e he3n Md3e
19b Dd5e ec5e ed5s

looks fuzzy and silver has very good advantage I guess...

[EDIT] may be not, I'm not sure  ???
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by RonWeasley on Aug 3rd, 2009, 5:43am
I started a vote since I'm getting panicky about time.  Post here if anybody has a new move or reason to cancel the vote.  Please continue discussion if anybody has more ideas.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by Adanac on Aug 3rd, 2009, 6:12am

on 08/02/09 at 21:36:41, camelback wrote:
I continued a few lines from c&g as below.
-----1-----
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b rf8s rf7s rf6s de6s
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b ed4w hf4s rf5s de5e
19w Mb3e Mc3e he3n Md3e
19b he4n he5w ec4e ed4e
-----2------
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b rf8s rf7s rf6s de6s
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b hf4w rf5s rf4s he4e
19w Hb6e dd6e Hc6e Mb3e

-----3-------
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b de6s de5s hf4s de4e
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b ed4w Dc5e ec4n rf8s
19w Mb3e Mc3e he3n Md3e
19b Dd5e ec5e ed5s

looks fuzzy and silver has very good advantage I guess...

[EDIT] may be not, I'm not sure  ???


If those are our best options, then we should consider other strategies.  Maybe we should try to get our horse on the 7th rank and then advance rabbits.  We can simultaneously threaten 3 pieces with 17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e.  Fritzlein can sacrifice a piece with a camel flip to d5 or e4, but we’ve done well in all of the crazy tactical complications that I’ve looked at.  A more cautious response from Fritz might be:

17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s ed4w Md3n he3w cb5n  (blunder)
18g Hf2n Hf3w Rb1n Rb2n

17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s Md3w ed4s cb5n rf8s
18g Cb4n Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n
18s dd6s dd5w de6w rf7e
19g dc5n Cb6w dc6w
20g Dd1w Dc1w Db1n Db2n

I also re-considered the cat flip to h3 to avoid getting buried on the east side, but we’re in the same bind we were with the D->d2 suggestion.

17g Eg3w cg4s cg3e Ef3e
17s de6s de5s rf8e rg8s
18g Mc3w Rc2w Dd1w Dc1n
18s hf4n de4e df4s hf5s
19g Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Rb2e
19s rg5s rg7s rg6s ed4w
20g Mb3e Mc3e he3n Md3e
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by RonWeasley on Aug 3rd, 2009, 10:19am
It seems the current vote is obsolete since Adanac's new move is as credible as the others.  I'm still panicking about the time.  Anybody feel free to voice vote if you want to commit.  Otherwise I will begin another vote Tuesday morning.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by chessandgo on Aug 3rd, 2009, 12:16pm

on 08/02/09 at 21:36:41, camelback wrote:
I continued a few lines from c&g as below.
-----1-----
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b rf8s rf7s rf6s de6s
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b ed4w hf4s rf5s de5e
19w Mb3e Mc3e he3n Md3e
19b he4n he5w ec4e ed4e
-----2------
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b rf8s rf7s rf6s de6s
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b hf4w rf5s rf4s he4e
19w Hb6e dd6e Hc6e Mb3e

-----3-------
17w Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n
17b de6s de5s hf4s de4e
18w Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Cd2w
18b ed4w Dc5e ec4n rf8s
19w Mb3e Mc3e he3n Md3e
19b Dd5e ec5e ed5s

looks fuzzy and silver has very good advantage I guess...

[EDIT] may be not, I'm not sure  ???


Hmmm so there are at least 2 moves killing the 18g of lines 1 and 2, one would have been enough actually :) at least we're certain.

How about

17g Mc3w Rc2w Dd1w Dc1n
17s rf8s rf7s rf6s de6s as in your lines 1 and 2 (or 17s de6s de5s hf4s de4e as in line 3)
18g Dc2n Dc3n Dc4n Dc5n

for instance after:

18s ed4w ec4n hf4s rf5s
I think we hold with
19g rc7w Dc6n Rb2e Mb3e
19s ec5n Hb6w ec6w de5s
20g Mc3e Md3n he3w Cb4s

now indeed all variations are dangerous, it seems to me that if can get some kind of semi-grip around c6, we should hold our own as silver's elephant cannot be both around f3 and c6. If we cannot then silver will in the end get a grip and rotate the phant out under good conditions. If you guys find other threatening tries for silver let's check them out as well.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by chessandgo on Aug 3rd, 2009, 12:22pm

on 08/03/09 at 06:12:31, Adanac wrote:
If those are our best options, then we should consider other strategies.  Maybe we should try to get our horse on the 7th rank and then advance rabbits.  We can simultaneously threaten 3 pieces with 17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e.  Fritzlein can sacrifice a piece with a camel flip to d5 or e4, but we’ve done well in all of the crazy tactical complications that I’ve looked at.  A more cautious response from Fritz might be:

17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s ed4w Md3n he3w cb5n  (blunder)
18g Hf2n Hf3w Rb1n Rb2n

17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s Md3w ed4s cb5n rf8s
18g Cb4n Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n
18s dd6s dd5w de6w rf7e
19g dc5n Cb6w dc6w
20g Dd1w Dc1w Db1n Db2n


17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s ed4n Md3n ed5w Md4n

looks killing to me.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by Adanac on Aug 3rd, 2009, 1:19pm

on 08/03/09 at 12:22:48, chessandgo wrote:
17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s ed4n Md3n ed5w Md4n

looks killing to me.


18g Hc7e dd6w Hd7s Md5s
18s dc6n ec5n ec6s Hd6w Hc6x
19g Md4e he3w Me4s Cb4s

or

18g Hc7e dd6w Hd7s Md5s
18s rc8s ec5e dc6s dc5s
19g Cd2n Md4e hf4n Me4e
19s Hd6w Hc6x ed5n ed6s ed5s
20g Mf4s Mf3n ee3e ef3x Mf4s

or

18g Hc7e dd6w Hd7s Md5s
18s dc6w ec5s Md4e ec4e
19g de6e df6x Hd6e Rb1n Rb2n  
This dog sacrifice by Fritzlein is surprisingly strong.

They are wacky lines so someone should check them with a computer.  But I find that Fritzlein has a lot of weaknesses in his position if the tactics begin now - and that's what saves us when our horse gets into difficulty in the NW.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by jdb on Aug 3rd, 2009, 5:29pm
Looking at adanac's suggested move:

17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s ed4n Md3n ed5w Md4n

The tactics look a little different if we play

17g Hb6n rc7s Hb7e Mc3e

The move still threatens 3 pieces. With the rabbit on the trap, the double camel drag on 17s takes an extra step to capture the camel.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by camelback on Aug 3rd, 2009, 6:44pm

on 08/03/09 at 17:29:52, jdb wrote:
Looking at adanac's suggested move:

17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s ed4n Md3n ed5w Md4n

The tactics look a little different if we play

17g Hb6n rc7s Hb7e Mc3e

The move still threatens 3 pieces. With the rabbit on the trap, the double camel drag on 17s takes an extra step to capture the camel.



I like jdb's variation of Adanac's move, I guess Fritz cannot double pull camel because of dog threat. Only possible strong move for Fritz and some continuing lines are below

17w Hb6n rc7s Hb7e Mc3e
17b ed4w Md3n rc6w rf8s
18w Cd2n Md4e hf4n Me4e
18b ec4n ec5n ec6s Hc7s Hc6x
19w Mf4w he3e hf3x Me4s Me3n
19b ec5s ec4e Me4n ed4e
20w Eg3w mg2n Ef3n mg3w mf3x
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by Simon on Aug 3rd, 2009, 10:25pm
For that variation, can we really punish Fritzlein for flipping the camel? It looks to me like we can't afford to.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by chessandgo on Aug 4th, 2009, 2:37am

on 08/03/09 at 13:19:54, Adanac wrote:
18g Hc7e dd6w Hd7s Md5s
18s dc6n ec5n ec6s Hd6w Hc6x
19g Md4e he3w Me4s Cb4s

or

18g Hc7e dd6w Hd7s Md5s
18s rc8s ec5e dc6s dc5s
19g Cd2n Md4e hf4n Me4e
19s Hd6w Hc6x ed5n ed6s ed5s
20g Mf4s Mf3n ee3e ef3x Mf4s

or

18g Hc7e dd6w Hd7s Md5s
18s dc6w ec5s Md4e ec4e
19g de6e df6x Hd6e Rb1n Rb2n  
This dog sacrifice by Fritzlein is surprisingly strong.

They are wacky lines so someone should check them with a computer.  But I find that Fritzlein has a lot of weaknesses in his position if the tactics begin now - and that's what saves us when our horse gets into difficulty in the NW.


interesting. How about

18g Hc7e dd6w Hd7s Md5s
18s ec5e dc6x Hd6w Hc6x ed5n ed6s (I can't play this move in expert mode, dunno if it's a bug or if I'm doing something wrong). Looks to me that it's a H for d trade.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by chessandgo on Aug 4th, 2009, 2:47am

on 08/03/09 at 17:29:52, jdb wrote:
Looking at adanac's suggested move:

17g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Mc3e
17s ed4n Md3n ed5w Md4n

The tactics look a little different if we play

17g Hb6n rc7s Hb7e Mc3e

The move still threatens 3 pieces. With the rabbit on the trap, the double camel drag on 17s takes an extra step to capture the camel.


Yes, interesting even though pushing the r on c6 looks counterintuitive.

I don,'t know whether there is a good tactical move for silver then, but he can also just answer

17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
17s cb5n Md3w ed4s rf8s

which absolutely holds it's own if he doesn't find better. What I don't like about this 17g (with rc7s or n) is that silver can go for a tactical fight if he wants to or basically just get the position back to where it stood, depending on what he sees, so we'd better be sure about ourselves to play such a move.

But it looks complicated, maybe it's the right way for us, even though I prefer to H+D around c6, unless there is some good follow-up for us after the peaceful 17s above.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by Adanac on Aug 4th, 2009, 3:28am

on 08/04/09 at 02:47:33, chessandgo wrote:
Yes, interesting even though pushing the r on c6 looks counterintuitive.

I don,'t know whether there is a good tactical move for silver then, but he can also just answer

17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
17s cb5n Md3w ed4s rf8s

which absolutely holds it's own if he doesn't find better. What I don't like about this 17g (with rc7s or n) is that silver can go for a tactical fight if he wants to or basically just get the position back to where it stood, depending on what he sees, so we'd better be sure about ourselves to play such a move.

But it looks complicated, maybe it's the right way for us, even though I prefer to H+D around c6, unless there is some good follow-up for us after the peaceful 17s above.


OK, well voting is underway and my suggestion is probably too dangerous anyway.  I'll just vote on one of the original suggestions.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by jdb on Aug 4th, 2009, 5:24am

on 08/04/09 at 02:47:33, chessandgo wrote:
Yes, interesting even though pushing the r on c6 looks counterintuitive.

I don,'t know whether there is a good tactical move for silver then, but he can also just answer

17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
17s cb5n Md3w ed4s rf8s

which absolutely holds it's own if he doesn't find better. What I don't like about this 17g (with rc7s or n) is that silver can go for a tactical fight if he wants to or basically just get the position back to where it stood, depending on what he sees, so we'd better be sure about ourselves to play such a move.

But it looks complicated, maybe it's the right way for us, even though I prefer to H+D around c6, unless there is some good follow-up for us after the peaceful 17s above.


I am away today, so this will be my last post for today.

The move
17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
and chessandgo's move
17g Mc3w Rc2w Dd1w Dc1n
are both aiming at the same goal.

The dream setup for gold is a Horse on c7 and the Camel on b6 and the d1 dog in position to capture in c3 (the b5 cat looks tempting). This overloads silver's elephant, so something has to give.

Chessandgo's move works directly towards these goals. It positions the dog and starts the camel on a trip to b6. This is good.

So lets try combining the two ideas by delaying chessandgo's move one turn,
17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
17s cb5n Md3w ed4s rf8s
18g Mc3w Rc2w Dd1w Dc1n

Gold has the same camel and dog position as playing the move directly, but the horse is in better position too. In effect, we use the tactics available on 17g to gain time in our plan to overload the elephant.

But as chessandgo stated above, silver has the choice of whether or not to go for the tactical fight, so there is risk involved. Clueless did not see any short term tactical shot with this move. For comparison, it did find the horse/dog exchange when the rabbit is pushed to c8.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by RonWeasley on Aug 4th, 2009, 6:01am
I started a new vote adding the two new moves.  jdb states he is gone for the day so I will give him a bit of time and end the vote Wednesday morning around 10am EDT.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by Adanac on Aug 4th, 2009, 6:25am

on 08/04/09 at 05:24:11, jdb wrote:
I am away today, so this will be my last post for today.

The move
17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
and chessandgo's move
17g Mc3w Rc2w Dd1w Dc1n
are both aiming at the same goal.

The dream setup for gold is a Horse on c7 and the Camel on b6 and the d1 dog in position to capture in c3 (the b5 cat looks tempting). This overloads silver's elephant, so something has to give.

Chessandgo's move works directly towards these goals. It positions the dog and starts the camel on a trip to b6. This is good.

So lets try combining the two ideas by delaying chessandgo's move one turn,
17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
17s cb5n Md3w ed4s rf8s
18g Mc3w Rc2w Dd1w Dc1n


The biggest risk once again is probably
17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
17s ed4n Md3n ed5w Md4n
18g Hc7e Hd7e de6ex He7s

This time we don't have to worry about immediate capture of our camel, but our position probably won't hold over the long-term.  Clueless might not have considered 17s because it drops a dog, but if it plays out the position a few more steps I'm sure we're not doing well.  I'm probably going to vote for one of the original suggestions, unless someone can prove that we really can survive these tactics.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by chessandgo on Aug 4th, 2009, 8:51am
Interesting pot, jbd.


on 08/04/09 at 05:24:11, jdb wrote:
The dream setup for gold is a Horse on c7 and the Camel on b6 and the d1 dog in position to capture in c3 (the b5 cat looks tempting). This overloads silver's elephant, so something has to give.


I would rather think that our caMel has realistically to stay within reach of e3. If we get the Mb6/Hc7/Db3-hostaging-a-cat position, silver will have had time to free a horse from f3 blockade, so he could answer with elephant covering c6 and free horse covering c3.

Our dream position would rather be M around c3, perhaps hostaging the cat, Db6 Hc7 in my views.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by chessandgo on Aug 4th, 2009, 8:55am

on 08/04/09 at 05:24:11, jdb wrote:
So lets try combining the two ideas by delaying chessandgo's move one turn,
17g Mc3e Hb6n rc7s Hb7e
17s cb5n Md3w ed4s rf8s
18g Mc3w Rc2w Dd1w Dc1n

Gold has the same camel and dog position as playing the move directly, but the horse is in better position too. In effect, we use the tactics available on 17g to gain time in our plan to overload the elephant.


yes, but also silver's cat end up being free and useful on b6 rather than frozen and threatened by the c3 trap on rather term, which is a very big difference I think, big enough (perhaps, and perhaps more) to compensate for the horse position on c7 (and also the rabbit on c6 makes it harder for us to get control of c6 quickly).

So I wouldn't say the position after 18g in your line is better than that obtained by us playing directly this 18g as 17g.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by RonWeasley on Aug 5th, 2009, 7:28am
A whopping 6 votes were cast in this election.  The result was that two moves tied:

Cb4e Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n
and
Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n

In the previous game someone explained that if there's a tie, you don't necessarily have a runoff, because the ranked ballot already has the preference between these two particular candidates.  So, as moderator I flipped a galleon, it came up heads, and Cb4e Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n is the winner.

Our position is not very simple and some hard choices are in the future.  Let's be aware our time reserve is low.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by Adanac on Aug 5th, 2009, 9:39am

on 08/05/09 at 07:28:17, RonWeasley wrote:
A whopping 6 votes were cast in this election.  The result was that two moves tied:

Cb4e Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n
and
Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1n

In the previous game someone explained that if there's a tie, you don't necessarily have a runoff, because the ranked ballot already has the preference between these two particular candidates.  So, as moderator I flipped a galleon, it came up heads, and Cb4e Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n is the winner.

Our position is not very simple and some hard choices are in the future.  Let's be aware our time reserve is low.


Let's be pro-active and prepare some moves for 18g in advance.

If Fritzlein uses 2 dog moves to block our cat from reaching c5 or c7 then I propose moving our dog to b3.

If Fritzlein uses all 4 steps in the east then I will propose advancing the cat to c7, pushing the silver rabbit to d7.  Even though the cat will be taken hostage at d7 on 19s, we'll still be opening space for our rabbits on the west side.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by chessandgo on Aug 5th, 2009, 11:07am

on 08/05/09 at 09:39:33, Adanac wrote:
Let's be pro-active and prepare some moves for 18g in advance.

If Fritzlein uses 2 dog moves to block our cat from reaching c5 or c7 then I propose moving our dog to b3.

If Fritzlein uses all 4 steps in the east then I will propose advancing the cat to c7, pushing the silver rabbit to d7.  Even though the cat will be taken hostage at d7 on 19s, we'll still be opening space for our rabbits on the west side.


I agree with this for the moment.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by chessandgo on Aug 5th, 2009, 11:11am

on 08/05/09 at 07:28:17, RonWeasley wrote:
 So, as moderator I flipped a galleon, it came up heads, and Cb4e Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n is the winner.

Our position is not very simple and some hard choices are in the future.  Let's be aware our time reserve is low.


Oh yeah, Fred's tricked galleon which always shows tail? :)

Anyway I agree with this and Greg's advice, we can quite much guess what silver will roughly play (rf8sss plus some de6s or rb7s or random step, or perhaps dd6 to c5 + rf8ss or something similar), so let's try to decide right now what we play against these moves.
Title: Re: Move 17
Post by aaaa on Aug 5th, 2009, 11:35am
I believe it's theoretically better to repeatedly pick out a random ballot to break ties and only pick a candidate randomly as a last resort after that.

Of course, given that this tie was two-way, it doesn't matter here.


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