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Title: Move 20 Post by Simon on Sep 17th, 2009, 11:57pm Fritzlein has moved: 19s rc6w ed4n ed5n ed6w |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by RonWeasley on Sep 18th, 2009, 3:50am The only move I can find that doesn't lose material is 20g Mc3e Md3e Dh4s cg4e Other moves either let silver defend the f3 horse with 20s ec6e Hc7nx ed6s ed5s, block e4 so the M can't move the f4 horse, or trade H for d after 20g Mc3e Md3e Me3w hf3w. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by Adanac on Sep 18th, 2009, 3:55am on 09/17/09 at 23:57:29, Simon wrote:
The game will probably be decided in the next few moves, so we should put some heavy analysis into this decision. I think it's suicide to put our camel on e4, because Fritz could then retreat the elephant to d4. We also need an "obstacle" piece to prevent the elephant from capturing our horse AND returning to d4 or e4 next move. I don't have time for a full analysis right now, but I nominate this move: 20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n If Fritzlein responds with 20s de5s re7s re6s dc5e then we can save our horse but the board will get crazy-messy and we may not get an opportunity to take down the silver horse. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by RonWeasley on Sep 18th, 2009, 4:24am on 09/18/09 at 03:55:34, Adanac wrote:
The response instead could be 20s de5s re6s re6s ra5s, leaving the silver dog on c5. Gold's effort to save the horse by moving C->d6 loses the cat quickly. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by arimaa_master on Sep 18th, 2009, 5:10am My suggestion is: 20g Mc3e Md3e Dh4s Cc4s |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by chessandgo on Sep 18th, 2009, 7:38am ahhh, nice Dh4s step, I had not found it. Now I can breethe better :) I like Ron's move, I think arimaa_master's move does not work, and feel as Ron does about Greg's move. After 20g Mc3e Md3e Dh4s X, seems like we trade horses, and I'm not sure for who it's good. Silver will have a harder time controlling f3 as our Hf2 comes into play, but we no longer have an attacking Horse on the west. We have to be extremely careful though that our caMel does not get cut away from the west, otherwise silver will destroy our western wing quickly with h+d. I think that after arimaa_master's move what happens is even worse: 20g Mc3e Md3e Dh4s Cc4s 20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s 21g cg4e Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x 21s ed4s Me3n ed3e X and our caMel floats on e4. After Ron's move: 20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e 20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x rg5s rh5w 21g Me3n Me4s hf4w hf3x Cc4s does not seem possible because: 21s ed6s ed5s ed4s rg4w 22g Me3e Mf3w rf4s rf3x Me3e 22s ed3e he4w dc5s hd4s looks bad for us. So: 20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e 20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x rg5s rh5w 21g Me3n Me4s hf4w hf3x Cc4e might be possible since: 21s rg4w ed6s Cd4w ed5s might not work due to: 22g Cd2n Cc4s Rc2e Dc1n Another line might be: 20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e 20s rg5s rh5w ec6e Hc7s Hc6x 21g Me3n Me4s hf4w hf3x Me3w 21s rg4w ed6s ed5s de5e 22g Hf2n Hf3w rf4s rf3x Cc4s 22s he4e ed4e He3e ee4s Overall seems complicated, but unless I'm missing something we should find (I hope) a way to get back to the previous state with just a horse trade. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by RonWeasley on Sep 18th, 2009, 8:54am I'm liking Adanac's suggestion for deep analysis. I'm not good at making move trees, but I think maintaining a tree with brief annotation will help us organize this tactical minefield. Please volunteer, anybody! Then I encourage all to check each others' work because there are lots of exchange and positional possibilities that are easy to get wrong a few moves down the line. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by jdb on Sep 18th, 2009, 10:43am I will make up a tree after work tonight. The number in the square brackets after the move is the first post where the move is mentioned. The analysis tree: 20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n [2] . 20s de5s re7s re6s ra5s [3] 20g Mc3e Md3e Dh4s cg4e [1] . 20s rg5s de5s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x [12] . . 21g de4w Me3n Me4s hf4w hf3x . . . 21s ed6s ed5e ee5e ef5s . 20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s [10,11,13] . . 21g Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x Me3w . . . 21s Md3e ed4s Me3e ed3e [Not good for gold] . . . 21s ed4e Md3n ee4s Md4e . . . . 22g Cc4e de5n Me4n Me5w 20g Mc3e Md3e Dh4s Cc4s [4] . 20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s [5] . . 21g cg4e Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x . . . 21s ed4s Me3n ed3e X 20g Dh4s Mc3e Md3e Cc4e [14] . 20s de5s re7s re6s rh5s |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by mdk on Sep 18th, 2009, 10:56am One other possibility perhaps: 20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n oh now i see this was already posted |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by jdb on Sep 18th, 2009, 3:27pm Quote:
20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e 20s rg5s de5s ec6e Hf7s Hc6x 21g rg4n Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x 21s ra6s ra5s ed6s ed5s Silver now has a goal threat, so gold can't capture. I think its still OK for gold, its just another tactical resource silver has available. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by Hannoskaj on Sep 19th, 2009, 12:21am I think that on all moves with camel e3, Silver's reply is 20s Ec6e Hc7sX Ed6ss In any case its elephant is most useful back, so let's go as soon as possible, all the more since I can't see any trick to gain time otherwise, and it does keep the camel from taking horse. On this basis, 20g Mc3ee Dh4s Cg4e is most natural since it gives us a free step to choose on 21g, and not immediately on 20g. But in any case, I don't like that much since I don't see any way to keep Silver to hem our camel in the east, be it after 21g Eg3ns Hf4e Hf3X x or 21g Eg3n Hf4w(or n) Eg4w Hf3X x (Me3w with the hope S cannot immediately drag camel ?) Among the crazy ideas, though probably only crazy and not good, there is 20g Cd2nn Dh4s Mc3e For example 20s E takes h De5ss 21g M flips d to c3 21s E->e3 and try to make something in the east with camel. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by Hannoskaj on Sep 19th, 2009, 12:45am On further analysis, I think that 20g Mc3ee Dh4s cg4e 20s Ec6e hc7nX Ed6ss 21g Eg3ns hf4e hf3X Me3w should be OK. After 21s Ed4e md3n Ee4s md4e I think we have the upper hand after the complicated 22g Cc4e de5e(or n) Me4nw Anyhow, I agree this looks like a critical moment, but if nobody can come up with a credible alternative to Ron's 20g Mc3ee Dh4s cg4e we should not lose time on it. If the choice is Fritzlein's or to be really made on 21g, better let him think on his time or think on next move... |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by chessandgo on Sep 19th, 2009, 3:14am on 09/18/09 at 15:27:47, jdb wrote:
Perhaps 20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e 20s rg5s de5s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x 21g de4w Me3n Me4s hf4w hf3x is better, for 21s x x ra6s ra5s might be met with 22g Me3w Md3e dd4s Dc1w So the game might go: 20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e 20s rg5s de5s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x 21g de4w Me3n Me4s hf4w hf3x 21s ed6s ed5e ee5e ef5s Looks tense, but I can't see a clear plan for silver here, since it will be hard for him to hold to f3 without the elephant. We might have time to activate M+D on the west and go for a c3 capture or a c6 attack with D+R (+M?) + ... |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by chessandgo on Sep 19th, 2009, 3:26am Hannoskaj: 20g Cd2n Cd3n Dh4s Mc3e 20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x rh5s de5s saves the hf3 Now 20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e 20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s Oops, looks like this answer had not been considered even though it's the most logical move :) It also seems to be the most painful for us. Your line 20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e 20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s 21g Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x Me3w 21s ed4e Md3n ee4s Md4e 22g Cc4e de5n Me4n Me5w does look ok for gold to me, but there's also 20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e 20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s 21g Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x Me3w 21s Md3e ed4s Me3e ed3e where I can't find a move. Oops. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by chessandgo on Sep 19th, 2009, 3:30am 20g Dh4s Mc3e Md3e Cc4e 20s de5s re7s re6s rh5s looks bad as well. Hmmm. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by Hannoskaj on Sep 19th, 2009, 3:36am on 09/19/09 at 03:26:22, chessandgo wrote:
Ah, I did seem to remember there was always a way to push the camel East, but could not find it again last time I looked at this 21g... |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by Adanac on Sep 20th, 2009, 4:26am on 09/19/09 at 03:26:22, chessandgo wrote:
I think this will be a major problem. The 2 moves by Fritzlein in this variation are the two most likely candidates for him to play. Thus, if we can't get a good position here, then the entire variation is dubious. If we immediately play 22g Mf3n Mf4n rg5n Mf5e 22s ee3n ee4e ef4n hg4w and we lose a camel for horse exchange. After that, the h6 rabbit can take a step west to block out any future escape for our camel to the northeast. Otherwise, if we try to save our cat, then the silver dog can occupy b3 and our position is horrible: 22g Cc4s Cc3w Rb4w Dc1w 22s dc5s dc4w Cb3s db4s Can anyone find a better alternative move for us at any point? If not, I absolutely hate the fact that we're going to either lose material or have any pieces infiltrate our SW trap. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by arimaa_master on Sep 20th, 2009, 5:06am on 09/18/09 at 07:38:28, chessandgo wrote:
Yes, you are right, of course. So forget about my move! |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by Adanac on Sep 20th, 2009, 6:04am I’ve been analyzing this variation that I proposed earlier, except this time the silver dog stays on c5. This prevents us from saving the c7 horse but makes our board centre more flexible: (Note: these are just a few of the possible variations I looked at. It would take ridiculous amounts of time to fully analyze every variation in these crazy tactics!) 20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n 20s de5s re7s re6s rb8e 21g Cd4n de4w Me3n Re2n At this point Fritz can try to capture our horse and cat, but we get a mobile central camel and a strong strategic position. Alternatively, he can abandon the c7 horse in an attempt to trap our camel, but I think we can survive that. 21s ec6e ed6e re5e ee6s 22g Dh4s cg4e hf4e hf3x Me4e 22s ee5s rf5w Mf4n ee4e 23g Hce7e Hd7s Hd6e Dc1w Alternatively, Fritz can fight for the c3 trap and even though we’ll have a difficult time capturing his horses, I think we’ll do well on a messy board holding a camel hostage: 21g Cd4s de4w Me3n Re2n 21s Cc4s dc5s Re3s hf3w 22g Cd3s he3w Me4s Re1w 22s hf4n cg4w ec6s Hc7s Hc6x 23g Me3n cf4s cf3x Me4e Dh4w 23s re5s re4s ec5e ed5e 24g Mf4w Dg4w re3e rf3x Me4s At this point, Fritz can either play to contain our camel in the east or capture our dog: 24s ee5s Me3e ee4s rh6w 24s ee5s hf5w Df4n ee4e 25g Rd1e Cd2s hd3s Me3w 25s ef4w ee4s Df5n Df6x he5e 26g Re1e Cd1e hd2s Md3s Our position gets messy, and we’re down material, but our stronger camel should give us excellent chances. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by Hannoskaj on Sep 20th, 2009, 7:00am Adanac was five minutes faster than me. I copy my initial message and add below comments on his variations. Quote:
I have looked closely at this position and definitely don't like it. The aggressive 22g Me4 Hf4 loses in the fastest destruction war that ensues. Variations where we take with our elephant on f4 seemed more playable, but we are fighting for equality. So I have had another look at Adanac's 20g Mc3ee Cd2nn. We look OK if Silver exchanges horses immediately. 20s De5s Re7ss Ra6s (Rh6w might be better) 21g Cd4n de4w Me3n x (Dc1w) Complete control on f3 (+c3 tricks, possible f6) for one more turn makes it more than worth the possible cat sacrifice in the central blockade. 20s De5s Re7ss Cc5e 21g Me3w hf3w Md3s he3w I think we hold our own end. And there are probably other possibilities on this 21g. Another critical line would be 20s Dc5e cd4e Dd5s x (Rh6w) Maybe 21g Cc4n Me3w hf3w x (Dc1w) or 21g Me3we dd4s Ce4w ? Definitely very sharp, but I prefer that 20g to any alternative right now. on 09/20/09 at 06:04, Adanac wrote:
There (with 20s Rh6w instead of Rb8e), 21s re3w Hf3w Ec6w hc7nX looks good for Silver. That's why I don't like Re2n. Moreover the rabbit on e3 makes it harder for us to play on the c3 trap, even for one-time threats on dog and horse, which seemed useful to me in my testplay. Do you have any efficient reply to the above 21s ? However, i did not see the threat on camel The alternative would mean we have to fight more if Fritz goes after camel. The following is again a mess, but I think our good control of traps, the advanced rabbits and the fact that it's hard to freeze camel makes it playable: 20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n 20s de5s re7s re6s rh6w 21g Cd4n de4w Me3n x (Dc1w) 21s ec6e ed6e re5e ee6s 22g Re2n dd4s Me4w Cd5n By the way, in the second part of your post, you work with 21g Cd4s instead of Cd4n. Not the same. I think north is more interesting. Anyhow, after Adanac's 20g, we have at least practical chances from the mess, even if we may not be better (though I like the position). That sure is better than a straightforward road to strategic disadvantage. Adanac's move gets my vote. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by arimaa_master on Sep 20th, 2009, 7:27am Ok, my vote for 20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n too. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by Adanac on Sep 20th, 2009, 10:08am Hannoskaj: - You’re right, I mix-and-matched variations with Cd4n and Cd4s. I had looked at both variations and then when I summarized everything for the forum I got sloppy. The cat step south on 21g seems like a wasted step after we moved it north on 20g – except that it was only needed as a temporary obstacle. But I also kind of like sending the cat north as a sacrifice, because it’s such a great obstacle while we’re trying to capture the f3 trap. I’ll have to be more careful in the future when compiling analysis to make sure it’s more focused. - If Fritz plays rh6w on move 20s, then we can advance our h4 dog north. It simultaneously threatens the g6 rabbit and our elephant can again access f4. It’s similar to RonWeasley’s suggestion, except the tactics work out much better for us. - I don’t like advancing the e2 rabbit north but, unfortunately, there are variations where we’ll need it to keep the camel mobile if Fritz doesn’t capture the c7 horse. - If we do clog the middle, I think we can actually proceed slowly with the idea of either saving the c7 horse or capturing lots of small pieces in f3, depening upon the response on 22s below. This is yet another candidate move for 21g, giving us a 3rd viable option for our next move: 20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n 20s de5s re7s re6s rb8e 21g Cd4n Cc4e Cd5n Re2w 21s Cd6e ec6e Ce6e Cf6x ed6e 22g Me3s hf3w he3w Me2n 22s ee6w ed6w ec6e Hc7s Hc6x 23g hd3w hc3x Me3w Md3e Dc1w Fritzlein can deviate in a few ways here, but I’m really starting to like the idea of sending our cat north to create a wall of pieces in the middle. My instinct says that this 21g C -> d6 isn’t as strong as our other alternatives, but I feel better about this proposed 20g knowing that we have lots of options available on 21g. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by jdb on Sep 20th, 2009, 6:07pm Quote:
As far as I can tell, this 22g doesn't lose any material. We end up exchanging camels and maybe horses. I have no idea who is winning, but material is equal. 20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e 20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s 21g Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x Me3w 21s Md3e ed4s Me3e ed3e 22g Mf3n Mf4w Hf2n Hf3n 22s re7s de5w Me4n ee3n |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by Hannoskaj on Sep 20th, 2009, 10:37pm on 09/20/09 at 18:07:57, jdb wrote:
Just take cat: 22g Mf3nw Hf2nn 22s D takes cat 23g Me4e6 takes dog 23s E takes m 24g Eg3e3 takes camel 24s Ee6ss hf4n Ee4e Beurk. Quote:
Interesting. I had seen that gave us goal attacks possibilities along h column (and that's why I'm not too fond of killing g6 rabbit; it's a good shield) but had forgot it also threatened horse. Silver might still not be that bad here, I think. Quote:
Do you have a specific example? Otherwise I like better playing it when we need it, when Fritz uses the elephant to go after camel, as suggested in my previous post. And if Fritz follows another line, we are not impeded by this rabbit in the way. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by jdb on Sep 21st, 2009, 5:49am Quote:
25g Ee3n Ee4n rg5n Hf5e At this point we are up a dog for a cat. Now silver has some choices 25s Rb4e cb5s hg4s ef4n 26g Re2n Ee5s Rc2n Dc1n 26s ef5s Hg5w Hf5n Hf6x ef4n 27g Ee4e Ef4s Ef3n hg3w hf3x 27s dc5e Rc4n Rc5n Rc6x dd5w Now its a dog for a cat and rabbit. Once again, not sure who is winning. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by RonWeasley on Sep 21st, 2009, 9:33am on 09/20/09 at 06:04:46, Adanac wrote:
I'm worried about the following continuation where silver uses the rabbits on e5 and g5 to protect his horse: 21s Re3w hf3w rh6w (protecting the f6 trap) ra6s 22g he3s Mf3w Cc4s Cc3w 22s hf4w re5e re5s dc5s 23g Eg3w Ef3e rf4s rf3x Rh2n 23s ec6e Hc7n Hc6x Rg5w Rf5s and when gold takes the rabbit, e->f4 covers the f3 trap and gold is behind material with a hanging cat. Gold can get a horse frame next, but it doesn't seem like enough compensation. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by mdk on Sep 21st, 2009, 12:45pm on 09/21/09 at 09:33:10, RonWeasley wrote:
What about 22g Cc4s Cc3w hf4n Me4e |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by Adanac on Sep 21st, 2009, 3:23pm on 09/21/09 at 09:33:10, RonWeasley wrote:
Good point Ron. Even though mdk found a strong improvement for 22g, we’re still going to get into a messy situation where we’ll trade Horse for Horse with some terribly weak gold cats stuck in the north. We’ll need to improve the variation even further to make it worth consideration. Maybe the Re2n move on 21g wasn’t necessary after all. The line I was worried about earlier was our camel not being able to capture the horse: 20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n 20s de5s re7s re6s rb8e 21g Cd4n de4w Me3n Dc1w 21s ec6e ed6e re5e ee6s 22g Re2n dd4s Me4w Db1n 22s ee5s Cd5e Md4n ee4w The Re2n step on 21g makes it possible to capture the horse even if Fritz retreats the elephant to e5. But I’m starting to believe that we can survive just fine without that awkward rabbit move to e3. Instead, we can leave the e3 square unoccupied with better results if Fritz does decide to capture our horse: 20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n 20s de5s re7s re6s rb8e 21g Cd4n de4w Me3n Dc1w 21s hf3w Cc4s dc5s rh6w 22g Re2w he3s Me4s Cc3w 22s hf4n cg4w ec6e Hc7s Hc6x 23g Me3e Mf3w cf4s cf3x Me3w 23s re5s re4e dd4e dc4n We’re losing a little bit of material in this variation, but I think our long-term position is great. Our camel is mobile and we’ve got lots of rabbits for an advance in the northwest. What I like about the variation as a whole is that silver’s army gets very disorganized with the congested middle and the elephant away from the Southeast trap. We’ll still hold the camel hostage while eventually re-organizing for a strong counter-attack on the other side. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by Adanac on Sep 21st, 2009, 4:54pm on 09/21/09 at 05:49:19, jdb wrote:
I do like this particular line for our side, but what if Fritz plays the following 22s instead? I can’t find a way for us to escape unscathed. I think our camel and horse will be doomed once the silver horse occupies f4, freeing the elephant. 20g Dh4s cg4e Mc3e Md3e 20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s ed5s 21g Eg3n Eg4s hf4e hf3x Me3w 21s Md3e ed4s Me3e ed3e 22g Mf3n Hf2n Mf4w Hf3n 22s Me4w ee3n Hf4n ee4e 23g Md4n Md5n Md6e Re2n 23s dc5e de5s Re3w de4s |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by jdb on Sep 22nd, 2009, 5:01am on 09/21/09 at 16:54:39, Adanac wrote:
I looked at your 22s. I agree it looks very good for silver. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by chessandgo on Sep 23rd, 2009, 8:54am Ok, so what's wrong with 20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n in the end? After 20s de5s re7s re6s ra6s 21g Cd4n de4w Me3n Dh4s (or maybe even Dc1w or any other step) 21s ec6e ed6e re5e ee6s 22g Re2n dd4s Me4w Dh4s Looks good for us [on 21g I think Greg's last step Re2n might fail to 21s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x Re3w hf3w] After a more peaceful 20s like 20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n 20s ec6e Hc7s Hc6x ed6s de5s 21g de4n Me3n Me4s hf4w hf3x 21s de5n ed5e ee5e ef5s we have at worst 22g Cd4s Cd3s Me3w Cc4s with an enjoyable position. If we don't play the Dh4s step on 21g maybe we're still ok anyway, as silver's 21s e to e5 might be that threatening: 20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n 20s re7s de5s re6s ra6s 21g Cd4n de4w Me3n Dc1w 21s ec6e ed6e re5e ee6s 22g Re2n dd4s Me4w Db1n again it's complicated but it looks ok for us. Remains the fighting 20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n 20s re7s de5s re6s ra6s 21g Cd4n de4w Me3n Dh4s 21s Cc4s dc5s dd4s hf3w but I think we should be doing fine in this fight (to be checked). I hope I'm not missing something obvious, and anyway several positions need to be checked, but at the moment Greg's 20g Mc3e Md3e Cd2n Cd3n look good to me. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by Adanac on Sep 23rd, 2009, 5:24pm Are we ready for a vote now? We're about to dip into our reserves and we've had quite a bit of deep analysis into each variation. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by RonWeasley on Sep 24th, 2009, 4:33am After all this, the only move that gives us any hope seems to be 20g Mc3w Md3w Cd2n Cd3n So I propose a voice vote. Mine, Adanac and chessandgo count as 3 so far. Others who have expressed opinions, please do so again. I'll move if we get 6 or an objection. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by jdb on Sep 24th, 2009, 5:44am on 09/24/09 at 04:33:32, RonWeasley wrote:
Play it, seems like the only option. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by Hannoskaj on Sep 24th, 2009, 9:58am Strongly voiced before, as strongly voiced now. +1 |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by camelback on Sep 24th, 2009, 11:14am count me in too for 20g Mc3w Md3w Cd2n Cd3n |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by RonWeasley on Sep 24th, 2009, 12:01pm And that makes 6. Apologies to those who strongly voiced before. My problem is that I can't tell if subsequent posts may change your mind or if you have read those posts. This is an inherent problem with using a forum to communicate. Please forgive. |
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Title: Re: Move 20 Post by Hannoskaj on Sep 24th, 2009, 12:28pm on 09/24/09 at 12:01:49, RonWeasley wrote:
That was no accusation! Sorry if you considered it so! And your observation on the way forums work is quite correct. |
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