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Title: Move 22 Post by Simon on Oct 1st, 2009, 7:13am Fritzlein has moved: 21s Cd4s ed5s ra6s ra5s with a goal threat preventing us from immediately capturing the camel |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by RonWeasley on Oct 1st, 2009, 9:08am I'm looking at 22g Cc4s Re2w cg4w Dh4w blocking out the silver e and threatening a capture on f3. Silver can respond by flipping the d3 Cat. I think gold can gain one or two rabbits in the ensuing tactical battle. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by Hannoskaj on Oct 1st, 2009, 9:12am My reflex answer would be to strongpoint d3 with: 22g Cc4s Rc2e Db1n Ra2n Notably Silver cannot put the camel on f3. It might get slightly difficult to slide between sides, but if Silver comes and protect f4 with phant, we should be able to free camel by having the horse on e3 soon. Meanwhile we retain our threats on f3. On the other hand, Silver could try to goal attack in the west, but that seems doomed to inefficiency. EDIT: In fact that's a *bad* idea: 22s He4en me3e Ee4s is feasible since if we take horse, Silver has 23s Ee3nw xx *without* taklng camel and the camel is lost on the following move. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by jdb on Oct 1st, 2009, 4:16pm on 10/01/09 at 09:08:41, RonWeasley wrote:
The first, third and forth step look good to me. There are some choices for the second step. If I analyzed correctly (thats a big if!), the elephant does not need to be blocked out. Silver's f6 trap is undefended. Options for the second step include, Cc3w, Ra2n, Ra1e, Dc1w. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by RonWeasley on Oct 2nd, 2009, 3:13am on 10/01/09 at 16:16:10, jdb wrote:
Without Re2w in 22g, I have silver respond 22s Cd3s ed4s Me3e ed3e. Not sure how to exploit the unprotected f6 because capturing the cat there with either caMel or Dog leads to its own capture, sacrificing the exchange. Taking the g6 rabbit instead seems to lose the Dog at least. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by chessandgo on Oct 2nd, 2009, 7:52am I thought we might win m for H with 22g Hf2n Hf3n Cc4s Re2w but something like 22s Rb4e cb5s de5n he4n defends. 22g Cc4s Re2w cg4w Dh4w 22s ed4w Cd3n Cd4n ec4e 23g Eg3w Ef3e cf4s cf3x Rd2n 23s Rd3s ed4s Me3s ed3e does not seem enough. 22g Cc4s Cc3w (or some other step) cg4w Dh4w 22s Cd3s ed4s Me3e ed3e 23g rg5n Dg4n rg6w rf6x Dg5n 23s de5n he4n he5e hf5e 24g cf4w Mf3n Mf4n Rh2n seemed appealing but actually not after 24s ce4n ee3n ee4e And yeah, 22g Cc4s Cc3w cg4w Dh4w 22s Cd3s ed4s Me3e ed3e 23g cf4n Mf3n cf5n cf6x Mf4n fails to 23s he4w ee3n ee4e rh6w Ah, and actually, after 22g cg4w Dh4w Re2w Cc4s silver can use the same goal threat trick with 22s Rb4e cb5s cf4n de5n Hmmm |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by RonWeasley on Oct 2nd, 2009, 8:49am on 10/02/09 at 07:52:51, chessandgo wrote:
Ouch. Somehow I feel it's important to keep silver from pushing our M->f3 with his e->e3. I can prevent that only in this line continuing with 23g Cc3w Me3s he4s Dg4w, without immediately giving up the R on c4. Tricky tactics follow but I see no advantage for gold. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by Adanac on Oct 3rd, 2009, 6:00am on 10/02/09 at 07:52:51, chessandgo wrote:
Actually, I really liked this variation until I got to the end of your post and found: 22s Rb4e cb5s cf4n de5n :( I'll propose an alternate move where we can sometimes can get positions. Hopefully I didn't overlook a key move: 22g Cd3w Me3w he4s Dc1w 22s Md3s ed4s de5s de4e 23g Hf2n df4w Hf3n Cc4e 23s Re2e he3s ed3e re7e 24g Cc3w Rc2w Md2w he2w The position will devolve into an unclear mess. 22g Cd3w Me3w he4s Dc1w 22s ed4e Md3n ee4e Md4e 23g Cc4e he3e Me4s Cd4s My biggest problem with this variation is that we can’t rotate our f2 horse out and our dog is buried on h4. But the frame should at least give us a slight advantage. 22g Cd3w Me3w he4s Dc1w 22s Md3s ed4s he3n ed3e 23g Cc3e Cc4s Db1n Db2n Our western pieces are all awkwardly placed and Fritz might try another f3 blockade before we can get our western dog and camel onto strong squares. Fortunately, we may also be able to exchange rabbits in the west, and with only 14 pieces per side his blockade will be weaker. We can avoid the previous variations by blocking the d2 square: 22g Cd3w Me3w he4s Re2w 22s ed4e he3s ee4s re7e 23g cg4w Dh4w cf4s Dg4w is a winning variation for us, so Fritz would have to put his horse on f3: 22g Cd3w Me3w he4s Re2w 22s ed4e cg4w he3s ee4s 23g Cc3w Md3w Cc4e Cd4s 23s de5e cf4e df5s re7s I think this is a decent variation for us. And I think we can get away with an even sharper move to threaten the c5 dog: 22g Cd3w Me3w he4s Re2w 22s ed4e cg4w he3s ee4s 23g Md3n Md4n Cc4e Cc3w 23s ee3n Cd4w ee4w hf3w 24g Re1n Hf2n cf4w Hf3n |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by Hannoskaj on Oct 3rd, 2009, 1:17pm I am still very short on time, and did not even look at the variations in chessandgo and Adanac's posts yet, but I would like to point out a possible move: 22g Hf2nn Cc4s Dc1e The idea is that if the camel is thrown on f3, at least the horse is out, and we can play on f6 with views on using the h file for pushing our h2 rabbit. Short example: 22s cd3s Ed4s he3w Ed3w 23g Hf4n rg5n Hf5w Mf3n 23s He4e Ee3n mf4n Ee4w (or 23s He4ee Ee3n Re7n 24g Hg5w Mf4sw Hf5e) 24g rg6eX Hg5n xx (rh5e Dh4n) |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by Adanac on Oct 3rd, 2009, 4:53pm After more thought I realized a couple of things about my suggested move: 1. It would be more logical to play 22g Cd3s Me3w he4s Dc1w because it blocks out the e2 square for the silver horse. 2. However, Fritz can now safely keep his horse on f3 due to the blockade around the g4 square (this works in response to any of the 3 moves that I've suggested: 22s de5s de4e ed4e he3e. We still have some play in this position. For example, we can push the horse back to e3 while moving our own horse onto the f3 square. However,, I find that it's difficult for us to build any sort of advantage with this whole variation. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by Adanac on Oct 4th, 2009, 4:11am on 10/03/09 at 13:17:09, Hannoskaj wrote:
Yes, I like this move now, but I assume you meant Dc1w rather than Dc1e? We can easily get our horse into the northeast and eventually clear a path for our h4 dog to escape. And our dog can seize the b3 square before the silver dog gets there. So far, this looks like our best hope. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by Hannoskaj on Oct 4th, 2009, 7:14am on 10/04/09 at 04:11:43, Adanac wrote:
Yes Dc1b1. I think I'll revert to this notation from now on, I more seldom misuse it. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by chessandgo on Oct 4th, 2009, 9:13am on 10/03/09 at 06:00:47, Adanac wrote:
I don't get it, there is the H on f4 and not the c? |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by chessandgo on Oct 4th, 2009, 9:15am on 10/02/09 at 08:49:01, RonWeasley wrote:
22g cg4w Dh4w Re2w Cc4s 22s Rb4e cb5s cf4n de5n 23g Cc3w Me3s he4s Dg4w 23s Cd3w ed4s he3n ed3e looks bad for us, better try another 22g then I think |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by chessandgo on Oct 4th, 2009, 9:51am on 10/03/09 at 13:17:09, Hannoskaj wrote:
It's an interesting possibility, but after something like 22g Hf2n Hf3n Cc4s Dc1w 22s Cd3s ed4s Me3e ed3e 23g Hf4n rg5n Hf5e Mf3n 23s re7e de5e cb5w Rb4n I'm not sure whether we really have a good position. If we attack M+H around f6, feels like silver can hold to f6 while he's fine on the west, and has H to f2 prospects of our caMel leaves. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by arimaa_master on Oct 5th, 2009, 6:28am on 10/04/09 at 09:51:26, chessandgo wrote:
I think it is still looking playable - what about another 23g instead: 23g Hf4n cg4w Dh4w rh5s I cannot figure out all possible continuations but it seems to be a good choice to try to occupy f6 trap with horse and dog. So it could go like this: 23s he4w ee3n de5n ee4n 24g rg5n Dg4n rg6w Dg5n And I have no clue who is better - but this could be a good variation for us :) |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by jdb on Oct 7th, 2009, 11:06am on 10/05/09 at 06:28:43, arimaa_master wrote:
To me, this looks like the most promising line so far. If gold could manage to work a rabbit up the h file, it would put some pressure on silver. It feels like gold should delay committing the camel. It needs to keep an eye on silver's horse. Are there any ideas for other moves to look at, or a refutation for this move? |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by RonWeasley on Oct 8th, 2009, 3:40am on 10/07/09 at 11:06:33, jdb wrote:
I think this is the best way to go. I tried to foil this with silver attacking c3 with h and d, but gold pushes the h-file rabbits and seems to win the race. I looked at 22g Hf2n Hf3n Cc4s Re2w some more: 22g Hf2n Hf3n Cc4s Re2w 22s Rb4e cb5s de5n he4n 23g Cc3w Hf4n cg4w Dh4w 23s ed4e Me3e ee4s rh6w 24g Dc1w Db1n Cb3w Db2n 24s dc5w Rc4n cb4e cc4e 25g Mf3s cf4s Dg4w Rh2n 25s Rc5n Rc6x db5e dc5s rb6s 26g Rh3n rg5s Hf5e Rc2w This plays to similar themes but loses a rabbit in the process. At this point I think we have another voice vote since the discussion favors 22g Hf2n Hf3n Cc4s Dc1w I'll count myself, A_M, and jdb. That's 3 and we're looking for 6. Others who commented favorably on this move, please voice again. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by Adanac on Oct 8th, 2009, 5:25am on 10/08/09 at 03:40:45, RonWeasley wrote:
I haven't had time to look at the forum or analyze the position for a few days so I apologize if this has already been discussed: Wouldn't Fritz just play 23s ed4e cf4s cf3x ee4e rh6w? Also, are we giving voice support to the variation with Re2w or the one with Dc1w? |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by RonWeasley on Oct 8th, 2009, 5:46am on 10/08/09 at 05:25:13, Adanac wrote:
Sorry to confuse. We are voice voting on the Dc1w variation. My later remark was that the Re2w variation didn't work as well for me. With your suggested 23s, it's even worse. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by jdb on Oct 8th, 2009, 6:01am on 10/08/09 at 03:40:45, RonWeasley wrote:
If we play this move, silver's next move is forced. (Unless he decides to give up his camel ;D ) 22s Cd3s ed4s Me3e ed3e AM's original suggestion was to follow up with, 23g Hf4n cg4w Dh4w rh5s. On 22g, there are still options to replace Dc1w. Cc3w, Ra1e and Ra2e shut down the goal threat as well. We should probably take a little time to look at these moves too. So I withdraw my voice vote. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by RonWeasley on Oct 8th, 2009, 8:45am on 10/08/09 at 06:01:18, jdb wrote:
And by my rules of voice voting, any objection stops the voice vote. The reason I like Dc1w over the others is that it best allows the Dog to get to b3. I want it there to keep silver from attacking c3 with (after a few moves) d->b3 and h->d3 after e->e3. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by jdb on Oct 8th, 2009, 10:03am on 10/08/09 at 08:45:43, RonWeasley wrote:
At first glance moving the a1 or a2 rabbit doesn't look right. However moving the Cat to b3 may be a decent option. 22g Hf2n Hf3n Cc4s Cc3w 22s Cd3s ed4s Me3e ed3e (Cd3w is possible too) We are now 3 steps from threatening to capture the rabbit. If we eventually frame the rabbit the dog may be better placed on c2. 23g Hf4n cg4w Dh4w rh5s 23s re7e de5n he4w hd4s 24g rg5e Dg4n Dg5n Ra2e 24s dc5s dc4s Cb3w dc3w And things look really bad for gold. So to move the cat, something better is required. So lets try Dc1w instead, 22g Hf2n Hf3n Cc4s Dc1w 22s Cd3s ed4s Me3e ed3e 23g Hf4n cg4w Dh4w rh5s 23s re7e de5n he4w hd4s Gold could frame the cat, but silver is still going to get the c3 trap. Maybe, 24g H->c4 And now gold would have the strongest piece around the c3 trap. This could be an option for either the cat or the dog move. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by Adanac on Oct 9th, 2009, 5:06am I thought of a new idea, threatening the g4 cat, while blocking out the camel push onto f3. I won't have time for a full analysis before work but I suspect Fritz would move his elephant to f4 and we could get our camel out to the west: 22g Hf2n Cc4s Dc1w Db1n 22s de5n he4n ed4e ee4e 23g Me3n Hf3w Me4w Md4w |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by RonWeasley on Oct 9th, 2009, 8:44am on 10/09/09 at 05:06:00, Adanac wrote:
This is me just thinking out loud using a different 22s, a Cat flip. Seems to favor gold. 22g Hf2n Cc4s Dc1w Db1n 22s ed4w Cd3n Cd4n ec4e 23g cg4w Dh4w Hf3s cf4s cf3x 23s ed4s Me3e ed3e he4w 24g Mf3n Mf4w Dg4w Cc3e 24s dc5s Cd5w Cd3s hd4s 25g Db2n Me4w Md4n Md5n 25s hd3w Db3s hc3w rb6w 26g Cd2n Df4n Rh2n Rh3n 26s ee3n ee4w ed4n re7e 27g Eg3w mg2n Ef3w mg3w mf3x 27s Md6w ed5n Cc5e Mc6x dc4n 28g Ee3n Ee4w de5s Cd5e 28s hb3w rg5s rg4w de4s 29g Rh4w Rg4n Rg5n Re2w 29s ed6e ee6e Rg6s ef6e 30g Ce5n Ed4w dc5n dc6x Ec4n So Hf2n variations are definitely worth looking at. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by Hannoskaj on Oct 9th, 2009, 8:52am on 10/09/09 at 05:06:00, Adanac wrote:
That's one less step in the east. Hence, if the best Fritz has is putting the phant on f4, it's about sure this 22g is the better move. The question is: can Fritz use the weakness of the threat (a cat) to do something else? The most agressive seems 22s cd3s Ed4s cd2s Ed3s For example: 23g cg4f4 Dh4g4 Hf3f2 cf4f3x (simple and probably best) 23s Ed2d3 rc2d2 cc3x me3f3 Ed3e3 24g Dg4g6 takes rabbit 24s Ra4a3 De5f5 He4e6 One rabbit up, but maybe not for long. 23g Cc3d3 xxx and not move the Hf3 to keep the same kind of position 23g cc3b3 Me3d3 Hf3e3 Md3c3 23s Ed2f2 re2f3 Hard to assess at first glance, and I still don't have time for more. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by Adanac on Oct 9th, 2009, 1:54pm on 10/09/09 at 08:52:35, Hannoskaj wrote:
If this variation doesn't work out well for us, we can try 22g Hf2n Cc4s Re2w Dc1w instead so that we're not vulnerable on the c3 trap. It's very similar to other variations with the blockade at d3 except we're using the dog to stop goal threats. Unfortunately, we're not threatening to take the camel immediately, that's why it's not as threatening as the 22g cg4w Dh4w Cc4s Re2w variation (Fritz can play a cat flip to d5 with no immediate threats as pointed out by Ron). However, if we do get our camel to c4 on 23g then the c3 trap is blocked. Perhaps, 22g Hf2n Cc4s Cc3w Re2w to open the trap square instead? |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by Hannoskaj on Oct 10th, 2009, 1:01am on 10/09/09 at 13:54:13, Adanac wrote:
On both these latter suggestions, I am not convinced after shallow analysis. I don't like 22s He4f4 Ed4e4 me3e2 Yet another possible move would then be to completely seal the third rank with: 22g Rc2d2 Dc1c2 Hf2f3 Cc4c3 Then I can see two basic replies for Silver 1) 22s De5e6 He4e5 Ef4 probably comfortable for us, though perhaps slightly less so than after 22g Hf2f3 Cc4 Dc1b2. Maybe just slide all pieces west. 2) 22s cat flip to d5 23g takes cat 23s Re7f7 Ed4d3 me3f3 Ee3f3 Here is a possible continuation with many ideas: 24g Mf3f4 he4d4 Mf4e4 Dg4f4 24s Dc5d6 takes cat 25g hd4d3 Me4d4 Df4e4 Re1d1 25s Cb5c4 Rg5g4 Rh5h4 (I think these rabbits could get dangerous enough to require watching on) 26g cat frame x However, since west is weak, Silver may also play 22s rb4c4 Cb5b4 De5e6 He5e4 and there is a rabbit on b2 with cat on b3 if we take cg4... I find that line more worrying. An idea might be 23 cg4f4 Dh4g4 cf4e4 Hf3f4 making it impossible to defend camel in one move. However Silver gains steps using his goal threat. By the way, after reading your first post Quote:
does not look all that winning to me. Silver can immediately take cat, or play 23s Ee3n Cf3x df4n Ee4e De5n to win the dog on next move, or keep that as a threat, plus possibilities of sending the horse to g1 to free the camel... And I tend to think that our positions after the latter suggested moves are better than those after 22g Cd3w Me3w he4s Dc1w Right now, the three moves I would consider are: 22g Hf2f4 Dc1b1 Cc4c3 Forced Silver reply, so that we still have to think on our time. Play for us in the east for silver in the west. 22g Hf2f3 Cc4 Dc1b2 The one I like best if Silver has to reply peacefully. But other possibilities that require analysis. 22g Less choice for Silver. Not sure in the complicated lines. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by Adanac on Oct 10th, 2009, 7:32am on 10/10/09 at 01:01:13, Hannoskaj wrote:
I like this variation. I typed out the analysis below in Word before I saw Hannoskaj’s post but luckily we analyzed different paths and there’s not too much duplication of work: 22g Rc2e Dc1n Cc4s Hf2n 22s Rb4e cb5s de5n he4n 23g cg4w Dh4w Hf3s cf4s cf3x 23s ra4s ra3e rb3s cb4s 24g Re1w Rd1w Rc1w Rc4w 24s dc5s ed4e Me3e ee4s 25g Mf3n Mf4w Dg4w Me4w We’ll probably lose the f4 dog, of course, but we’ll get more than enough compensation. I’m not too worried about the b2 rabbit because I don’t see Fritz having any chance to force it through in the short-term. 25s ee3n Md4n ee4w he5e doesn’t work for Fritz because he can only capture 1 piece, not both. The cat flip to d5 allows us a mobile camel as well: 22g Rc2e Dc1n Cc4s Hf2n 22s ed4w Cd3n Cd4n ec4e 23g cg4w Dh4w Hf3s cf4s cf3x 23s de5n he4n ed4e ee4e 24g Dg4e rg5s Cc3w Me3w 24s dc5n Cd5w dc6e Cc5n Cc6x 25g Cb3w Ca3e ra4s Rb4w This looks good for gold. 22g Rc2e Dc1n Cc4s Hf2n 22s de5n he4n ed4e ee4e 23g Me3n Hf3w Me4w Md4w 23s dc5n dc6n cb5w Rb4n 24g Mc4w ra4s Mb4w Cc3w 24s he5e ef4w He3e ee4s Another pleasant scenario for us. There’s nothing scary with this move other than the b2 silver rabbit up above. But we can handle that just fine, I believe. I’ve changed my mind again and I now like 22g Rc2e Dc1n Cc4s Hf2n. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by arimaa_master on Oct 12th, 2009, 7:49am on 10/10/09 at 01:01:13, Hannoskaj wrote:
Now I like this move the best too! |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by Ice on Oct 12th, 2009, 8:25am on 10/10/09 at 01:01:13, Hannoskaj wrote:
What would happen if Fritz reponded with. 22s ed4n he4w hd4w ed5s 23g Me3n Hf3n Re2n Cc3w would look like a possible rebuttal but... 23s re7s de5w Me4n ed4e seems like it puts gold in a bad position. I find myself often amazed at the different moves you folks come up with. I see why my ranking is quite a bit lower after reading a lot of these posts :), but if someone could offer some analysis on the horse flip that Fritz could do, I'd be interested. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by Adanac on Oct 12th, 2009, 8:57am on 10/12/09 at 08:25:49, Ice wrote:
The key advantage to placing the horse on f3 is that our camel cannot be pushed east. The big disadvantage is that we cannot capture the silver camel on 23g. However, if Fritzlein were to play 22s ed4n he4w hd4w ed5s 23g cg4w Dh4w Hf3s cf4s cf3x and now Karl has to protect his camel and we're threatening the g5 rabbit as well. |
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Title: Re: Move 22, A_M, Post by RonWeasley on Oct 12th, 2009, 11:21am 22g Hf2n Rc2e Dc1n Cc4s seems to have all the ingredients we've been looking for. Saves our cat, blocks the camel push, threatens a silver cat, blocks the goal threat, develops our dog. No other moves seem to do this much for us so I think another voice vote is appropriate. (There's still time to object.) I'll count me, Hannoskaj, arimaa_master, and Adanac. That's four already. Need 2 more. |
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Title: Re: Move 22, A_M, Post by jdb on Oct 12th, 2009, 1:02pm on 10/12/09 at 11:21:20, RonWeasley wrote:
I vote for this move. |
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Title: Re: Move 22, A_M, Post by mdk on Oct 13th, 2009, 2:12pm on 10/12/09 at 11:21:20, RonWeasley wrote:
I vote for this move too making 6. |
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Title: Re: Move 22 Post by RonWeasley on Oct 13th, 2009, 4:39pm I make the move then. This is a sleepy mob. Thank you to all who got out of bed to vote. |
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