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        Team Games >> 2009 One vs TheMob >> Move 27
        
(Message started by: 722caasi on Dec 13^th, 2009, 8:40pm)

Title: Move 27
Post by 722caasi on Dec 13^th, 2009, 8:40pm

Fritzlein plays 26s ed6w dc5s dc4w ec6s

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Hippo on Dec 14^th, 2009, 1:37am

I really don't know what to do next. The Rb5 seems to be lost.
We have to work with "swarm" on east and possible ed attack on west supporting the ra4.

My move generator gives H>D>>rv. Again r is one step short from goal. Plan is rD<H>rvx on next turn if silver takes the Rb5.
If silver chooses ed attack insted, our e is nearby. If he chooses to fight on east, E can help either.

It's just first thought. I am not fun of letting the Rb5 to be framed and I am not sure which direction our E should moved so it may be positioned well :).

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Manuel on Dec 14^th, 2009, 3:09am

Next plan should indeed be to kill couple of rabbits in east, but I would first remove a few weaknesses from our position:
Rh1< Ra2^ Cb3v Df4>

(if we don't move the cat, silver can play: ev R> d^ C^)

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Hippo on Dec 14^th, 2009, 4:46am

on 12/14/09 at 03:09:48, Manuel wrote:

I am not sure how much dangerous would be pulling our cat.
He must at first kill Rc5, otherwise there will be a goal threat.
We should defend the a4 rabbit ... (I am just looking on the paper not moving stones).
On the contrary what with the response rg5<hv^D^ to your move?

We can also rotate DC ... C>D<^Rh1< (we can choose C ending on a3 b2 or c3)
May be Ra2^cv H>> or rather Ra2>C<H>>?, but in both cases
silver can pull our rabbit to b3 ... is it a problem?

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Manuel on Dec 14^th, 2009, 5:28am

After:
27g Rh1< Ra2^ Cb3v Df4>
27s rg5< hv^ D^
we can play:
28g E>rvE>Dv

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Hippo on Dec 14^th, 2009, 6:31am

That may lead to ed attack edv cR> we'll have to watch Ra4.

BTW: hvR>dC^ ... we can take E^<>r>x (ER attack :))

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Manuel on Dec 14^th, 2009, 7:18am

on 12/14/09 at 06:31:11, Hippo wrote:

BTW: hvR>dC^ ... we can take E^<>r> (ER attack :))

You are right. So we don't need to move the cat at the moment:
27g Rh1< D>>rv (or maybe actually D>v)

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by jdb on Dec 15^th, 2009, 7:14am

The rabbit is hanging on b5. Its likely dead, since its not worth it to tie down our elephant to save it.

The g file is open. It would be a good idea to put a rabbit on the g file, to reduce silver's tactical options.

Since gold is up a piece (the cat), strategically we want to play with the elephants together. This will leave us with an extra piece to play with on the rest of the board.

Gold wants its elephant to be near silver's horse, to increase gold's tactical options.

So how about something like,

27g Rh8w Ed5e Ee5e dd6s

This threatens the horse and the dog, so the b5 rabbit is safe.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Hippo on Dec 15^th, 2009, 8:08am

I wish we have Rh8 rabbit:), the move does not look bad, but I am not sure it puts the elephants together.
e> R> de5^ re7>.
I know, plans could be changed ... didn't we plan to place H to g3.
Yes Rg1 would give us long term safety. But do we have free step for it?

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by jdb on Dec 15^th, 2009, 10:56am

on 12/15/09 at 08:08:31, Hippo wrote:

Yes, Rg1 instead. Thats happens when I try to post without looking at the board.

Another option would be

26g Rh1w Ed5e de6w Ee5n

This only threatens the horse, but it takes two steps to protect the f6 trap.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Hippo on Dec 15^th, 2009, 12:47pm

It looks better ... looks like silver needs full turn for response
(ra7>>>re7>?).

But what about H> instead of Rh1<?. Yes, it will require one more step in the future, but we need not hurry unless silver spends steps for goal attack start.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by jdb on Dec 15^th, 2009, 2:06pm

on 12/15/09 at 12:47:34, Hippo wrote:

I am not sure where the proper place is for the horse. Since the camels have been exchanged, it is now almost a camel. In the early game, it is nice to have the camel in the centre so it can go to either side of the board. However, later in the game, maybe it is better to commit the camel.

Silver has most of his pieces on the left flank, so I would guess the horse will be needed to defend on that side. However, gold's attack is most likely to happen on the right flank, and it would be nice to be able to use the horse for that.

The purpose of Rh1 is to block goal threats. Most piece captures take 4 steps. If silver creates a goal threat, it is impossible to capture a piece using 4 steps. This can be very important. If silver only needs one step to create a threat, it means a defensive piece can use 7 steps instead of 4 to take up a defensive position. Although Rh1w is only one step, I think it is an important step to take.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Ice on Dec 15^th, 2009, 8:20pm

I apologize, I don't understand the notation that uses < and >, so I'm not 100% certain what the current proposed moves are. Given that, I'll just throw out a couple of the possibilities that I see.

How about ...

1. 27g Ed5n de6s Ed6e Df4n
--> Threatens the horse , dog, or a rabbit.
< possible responses >
27s hg6n hg7w rh6w ( any 4th )
or 27s Cb3e db4s ec5s hg6n

2. 27g Ed5n He3e Hf3e Hg3n
--> preventing the rabbit capture and matching H for h.
Leaves the West flank open to the dog + E attack.

Just a couple of ideas.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by aaaa on Dec 15^th, 2009, 9:57pm

Quad: 27g Re1n Ed5s Ed4w Df4e

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Sconibulus on Dec 15^th, 2009, 10:19pm

Ice: Possibility one gives fritz a goal by charging the rabbit.

I'm a fan of Ed5s Ed5w Rh1w Dc2w
It'll give us a threat on that dog and make those rabbits in the east less dangerous by filling the open path.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Hippo on Dec 16^th, 2009, 1:31am

on 12/15/09 at 21:57:36, aaaa wrote:

Quad: 27g Re1n Ed5s Ed4w Df4e

I hope dog for dog exchange would be in our favor so
27s rg5w hg6sn Dg4n
28g Ec4e Db4es Ed4w
28s hg6n Dg5nw hg7s is OK for us and the expected reply would be
27s eb5e Rb5e db4n rg5w and I it does not look like an improvement for us.

Actually I don't understand the Re1n step.

So proposals so far are:
1) 27g He3e Df4ee Rg5s
27s ec5s Rb5e db4n Cb3n
28g Ec5nwe rb6ex we are fine
27s Cb3e db4s ra4e ca5s
2) 27g Rh1w Ra2n Cb3s Df4e
27s rg5w hg6sn Dg4n
28g Ed5e rf5s Ee5e Dg5s
3) 27g various dog cat rotations (actually I do not support them)
4) 27g Rh1w Ed5n de6s Ed6e
27s ec5e de5e xxx xxx (db4s Cb3w?)
5) 27g Rh1w Ed5en de6w
6) 27g He3e Ed5en de6w
7) 27g Ed5n de6s Ed6e Df4n
27s rg5ssss :(
8) 27g He3een Ed5n
27s Cb3w db4s ec5s xxx (re7e)
9) 27g Ed5sw Df4e Re1n
27s ec5e Rb5e db4n rg5w
A) 27g Ed5sw Rh1w Dc2w
27s ec5e Rb5e db4n xxx (re7e?)
B) 27g He3e Ed5n de6s Ed6e
27s ec5e de5e xxx xxx (ed5se) or (Cb3w db4s)?
C) 27g Df4es rg5s Ed5e
D) 27g He3ee Ed5sw
27s Cb3e db4s ra4e ca5s
28g ~~Ec4sn db3ex Ca3e~~ ... oops C is on c3 not a3
27s ec5es Cd3w ed4s
28g Ra2n Df4ee rg5s
E) 27g He3e Dc2n Cb3w Dc3w
F) 27g He3e Dc2n Cb3s Dc3w
G) 27g He3e Ed5sw Dc2w
Now, my favorit is G).

Updated game tree ... here it's good place on the start of the 2nd page.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 16^th, 2009, 6:42am

I'm looking at Ed5n de6s Ed6e He3e.

Not sure if it's good, but there's the horse threat and the g file is covered. I'm most worried about 27s ec5e ed5s ed4e de5e

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by jdb on Dec 17^th, 2009, 7:35am

on 12/16/09 at 06:42:12, RonWeasley wrote:

I'm looking at Ed5n de6s Ed6e He3e.

Not sure if it's good, but there's the horse threat and the g file is covered. I'm most worried about 27s ec5e ed5s ed4e de5e

This elephant position looks good for silver against alot of gold moves. If the elephant sits on e4, He3 and Df4 are both looking a little exposed.

Attacking the dog on b4, leads to something like rb6w Rb5n db4n and the dog is fairly safe.

Maybe something like the following would work,

27w Df4e Dg4s rg5s Ed5e

If silver puts the e on d3, gold can just retreat the horse. It also provides a threat against the dog and rabbit. The horse is more exposed now too.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Adanac on Dec 17^th, 2009, 12:41pm

For long-term strategy, I like the idea of just placing our horse on g3, dog on b3 and giving up our b5 rabbit. We should be able to soon recapture a silver rabbit because Karl has weak advanced rabbits on both sides.

27g He3e Hf3e Ed5s Ed4w
27s ec5e ed5s Cd3w ed4s
28g Ra2n Df4e Dg4e rg5s

Our 29th move would either be a rabbit capture or a dog rotation onto b3.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 17^th, 2009, 1:40pm

on 12/17/09 at 12:41:14, Adanac wrote:

So far, my analysis supports this strategy. I think the game will move to a fight around c3. Silver may give up an eastern rabbit to put a dog on b3 and try to keep it there. Once a gold dog gets on b3, play goes to a fight around c6. This is where we apply our extra cat. The horses seem to want to stare at each other because if one leaves, the other moves in and tries to goal a rabbit.

Even the move I suggested earlier seems to end up with the same strategic game. I can't save the b5 rabbit because the E is needed on c4 eventually. Adanac's move look's like it gets us to that position with minimum risk.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by jdb on Dec 18^th, 2009, 6:20am

on 12/17/09 at 12:41:14, Adanac wrote:

One question, why is the horse on g3 preferred over the dog on g3?

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 18^th, 2009, 9:27am

on 12/18/09 at 06:20:45, jdb wrote:

One question, why is the horse on g3 preferred over the dog on g3?

I think it's to keep the silver horse off of g3. If silver gets a e-d attack against c3, the gold E has to go there and might not be able to address an h on g3. Also an h on g3 would invite silver rabbits to try penetrating down the h file.

Maybe a better attacking player than me has another answer.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by jdb on Dec 18^th, 2009, 1:36pm

on 12/17/09 at 12:41:14, Adanac wrote:

27g He3e Hf3e Ed5s Ed4w
27s Cb3e db4s ra4e ca5s

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 20^th, 2009, 11:18am

on 12/18/09 at 13:36:30, jdb wrote:

27g He3e Hf3e Ed5s Ed4w
27s Cb3e db4s ra4e ca5s

That's an uncomfortable response.

How about:

27g Dc2n Cb3w Dc3w He3e

It drives us to a defensive position but it seems like we can trap rabbits from here.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Hippo on Dec 20^th, 2009, 3:18pm

Seems
27s Cb3e db4s ra4e ca5s is an attack requiring response in the west wing in most cases so the dog cat rotation may be important. And the move 1) become really dangerous with that (at least we cannot take the rabbit as planned). Our E should hurry to c4 ...
28g Esw Cd3n Cc3e
28s db3w rb4ss da3e
29g Dc2s rb2en Dc1n
29s ca4e ra7sss
30g Cd3e rc3e Ce3s rd3e
30s ec5es Cd4e ec4s
31g Hf3e re3ex re1w xxx
31s db3e ra4ses
32g rb2n dc2w rb3w db2n
32s dc3s ed3ww Db3s
33g Rd2n Ec4s dc2e Ec3s
But there can be better moves for silver and the situation was rather dangerous.

on 12/20/09 at 11:18:21, RonWeasley wrote:

27g Dc2n Cb3w Dc3w He3e

It drives us to a defensive position but it seems like we can trap rabbits from here.

... is cat on a3 better than on b2?

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by jdb on Dec 20^th, 2009, 5:09pm

on 12/15/09 at 22:19:18, Sconibulus wrote:

In light of recent developments, I think this move deserves a closer look.

Silver needs at least 3 steps to safe the b4 dog. It can't go to b3, since it can be captured. So that puts a delay in silver coming after the c3 trap.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 22^nd, 2009, 5:56am

on 12/15/09 at 22:19:18, Sconibulus wrote:

We seem to be going to an E on c4 position and sacrificing the b4 rabbit. I'm worried about the silver e going to d3 on the next move for this and for other moves, like using He3e instead of Rh1w. I think we hold on, but I can't find a way to gain back the initiative.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by jdb on Dec 22^nd, 2009, 7:05am

on 12/22/09 at 05:56:19, RonWeasley wrote:

For the sake of discussion, lets say

27g Ed5s Ed4w Dc2w He3e
27s ec5e ed4s Cd3e ed4s
28g Cb3e Db2n Cc3s Ra2n

On 27s, silver could push the cat on to the trap.

I am indifferent between Rh1w and He3e. Something is required to protect the g file, and they both get the job done.

Silver's attack on the c3 trap has been stopped. We will be able to frame a rabbit there eventually. This should allow us to have the elephants together.

There are rabbits available for capture in the f3 trap. Gold needs to threaten rabbit captures on both traps at once. Silver does not have enough pieces left to cover that and even a weak goal attack.

I can't see a way to save the b4 rabbit without giving up a strong goal attack.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 23^rd, 2009, 6:52am

I think it's time to vote. Any final comments? Should the voting period be longer due to holidays?

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Adanac on Dec 29^th, 2009, 8:39am

Yes, I think we should vote soon.

It seems that either the silver dog will be able to reach b3 or the silver horse will reach g3. We can't prevent both. I'd rather prevent the 1st possibility because if the silver horse does occupy g3 then we still have the option of a horse hostage with our elephant.

I'm probably going to vote for moving our dog to b3 and horse to f3.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by RonWeasley on Dec 30^th, 2009, 4:16am

on 12/29/09 at 08:39:12, Adanac wrote:

Yes, I think we should vote soon.

The above message was posted during the voting period. Adanac, are you getting the voting e-mails?

Only 5 votes and the winner is
27g Ed5s Ed4w Dc2w He3e (3-2 over the similar move with Rg1w)

With only 5 votes, are we really a mob? That's hardly enough to be a rabble. Maybe we should be TheSubcommittee.

Title: Re: Move 27
Post by Adanac on Dec 30^th, 2009, 10:37am

on 12/30/09 at 04:16:43, RonWeasley wrote:

I overlooked the e-mail, but yes it's there in my inbox. I do like the move chosen by the Mob Subcommittee though.