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        Team Games >> 2009 One vs TheMob >> Move 28
        
(Message started by: RonWeasley on Jan 7^th, 2010, 10:29am)

Title: Move 28
Post by RonWeasley on Jan 7^th, 2010, 10:29am

Silver moves 27s ec5e ed5s Cd3w ed4s.

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by Hippo on Jan 7^th, 2010, 3:00pm

What about
Cc3s Cb3e Db2n Hf3e?
Leaving the rabbit, but putting dog and horse to good places. Planning to attack eastern rabbits.
But I really don't understand the position.

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by Manuel on Jan 8^th, 2010, 2:29am

How about
Cc3s Df4e Dg4s rg5s?

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by Nombril on Jan 8^th, 2010, 8:36am

Hello everyone, I’ve been reading for a while and thought I would take the plunge and start discussing as well.

I’m wondering if we should figure out how to use our extra cat yet.

Ec4n Cc3n Db2e Hf3e (or Cb3e Db2n – depending on which side is better for the D.)

This keeps everything alive, with the intent for EC at the C6 trap, assuming we have enough small pieces to continue defending the C3 trap.

on 01/08/10 at 02:29:05, Manuel wrote:

Cc3s Df4e Dg4s rg5s?

Would:
28s hg6s rg4e Cb3(e or w) db4s
Give Fritzlein the choice between ED on one side or switching to EH on the other?

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by RonWeasley on Jan 8^th, 2010, 10:43am

on 01/07/10 at 15:00:22, Hippo wrote:

What about
Cc3s Cb3e Db2n Hf3e?
Leaving the rabbit, but putting dog and horse to good places. Planning to attack eastern rabbits.
But I really don't understand the position.

This was my first instinct.

Note that we don't have to do Cc3s right away to get the dog to b3, but we lose the (very small) virtual threat against the b4 dog. With an extra step I might consider Df4s since I'm worried about the horse or elephant trapping it on f6.

So consider Cb3e Db2n Hf3e Df4s.

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by Hippo on Jan 8^th, 2010, 12:13pm

on 01/08/10 at 10:43:07, RonWeasley wrote:

So consider Cb3e Db2n Hf3e Df4s.

I am missing something ... don't we have a cat on c3?

May be you mean Cb3w Db2n Hf3e Df4s?

Title: Re: Move 28f3w
Post by Hippo on Jan 8^th, 2010, 12:40pm

on 01/08/10 at 08:36:26, Nombril wrote:

Ec4n Cc3n Db2e Hf3e (or Cb3e Db2n – depending on which side is better for the D.)

28g Ec4n Cc3n Cb3e Db2n
28s ed3e ee3n Hf3w rh5s and our dog is under attack, there is a goal threat and moving our elephant east means loosing the c4 cat ... may be it can be defended but we are under presure ... or may be we have sufficient counter thread in capturing the b4 dog?

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by Adanac on Jan 8^th, 2010, 5:04pm

on 01/08/10 at 12:13:55, Hippo wrote:

May be you mean Cb3w Db2n Hf3e Df4s?

I like this move best of all. It's great that we can occupy b3 and g3 with strong pieces. We do have some poorly placed pieces but we can re-arrange those later. The important thing is that we've halted Fritz's immediate counter-attacking opportunities and occupied the important squares.

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by azgreg on Jan 9^th, 2010, 6:28am

Quote:

May be you mean Cb3w Db2n Hf3e Df4s?

I like that also. The threat to swing his elephant east and horse south to attack appears to be a dangerous plan. This move shuts down his westside attack, and allows us some time in case he actually carries out the eastside threat.

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by Nombril on Jan 9^th, 2010, 8:19am

Hippo, that does look like a dangerous response to my suggestion. I was hoping to go after the c6 trap, but I think Silver will have a faster attack at f3 after your s28.

I agree with Cb3w Db2n Hf3e Df4s.

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by chessandgo on Jan 9^th, 2010, 11:10am

I'd like to emphasize the value of a rabbit here. We are a cat ahead, which is pretty big given that there are few pieces left, but if we were to lose a rabbit, like after:

28g Cb3w Db2n Hf3e Df4s
28s Rb5e ca5e Rc5n Rc6x cb5e

the position would be about par I think (in general, I'd say that R could be slightly superior to a cat at endgames, but as here there is a shortage of pieces but not rabbits that might even things out).

In any case, a difference of a rabbit is more than huge, so we just cannot let the Rb5 be captured for the sake of reorganization. An e+d attack (and even less an e+h attack) would be worth much much less than a rabbit imo.

Either threatening an f3 capture or playing E to c5 and D to b3 seem mandatory to me. So either:

28g Cc3s Ec4n Cb3e Db2n (seems fine to me, unless pulling the Df4 with the h or pushing it to f5 with the e are threatening for silver, which they don't see to be)
or
28g Cb3w Db2n Ec4n Hf3e
or
28g Df4e Dg4e rg5s Hf3e
or stuff like that

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by Adanac on Jan 9^th, 2010, 2:04pm

on 01/09/10 at 11:10:06, chessandgo wrote:

28g Cc3s Ec4n Cb3e Db2n (seems fine to me, unless pulling the Df4 with the h or pushing it to f5 with the e are threatening for silver, which they don't see to be)
or
28g Cb3w Db2n Ec4n Hf3e
or
28g Df4e Dg4e rg5s Hf3e
or stuff like that

If we can stop the counter-attack and keep our rabbit then you've got me convinced. But it seems that if Fritz does push our dog to f5 (in the first 2 variations) then we've introduced needless complications. And our elephant will be lured away from the c6 trap to protect the dog. What's going to be our long-term strategy to hold the rabbit?

In the last variation we keep a big material advantage, but with an even less solid position:

28g Df4e Dg4e rg5s Hf3e
28s Cb3w db4s ra4e hg6s
29g Capture rabbit with horse
29s hg5s rb8e rc8s re7e

I still like our other simple & boring idea of just holding the key squares and keeping our pieces out of danger. And I think we'll eventually recover our lost rabbit due to weak silver rabbits on both sides of the board. Just how valuable is that b5 rabbit? :-/

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by Hippo on Jan 9^th, 2010, 5:40pm

What about Cc3s Cb3w Db2n Hf3e.
As the cat is out of the c3 trap, dog can be immediately trapped if the phant leaves. So the f4 dog is protected indirectly (I beleave that even material exchanes are OK for us).

It seems to me the ca5 Rb5 rb6 is good protection of c6 trap for silver. Seems to me after taking the b5 rabbit it became much weaker.

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by chessandgo on Jan 10^th, 2010, 3:33am

wrote a long reply and accidentally erased it :(

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by chessandgo on Jan 10^th, 2010, 3:46am

on 01/09/10 at 14:04:29, Adanac wrote:

My point was that if complications were worth a (fraction of a) rabbit then they are necessary :)

on 01/09/10 at 14:04:29, Adanac wrote:

I still like our other simple & boring idea of just holding the key squares and keeping our pieces out of danger. And I think we'll eventually recover our lost rabbit due to weak silver rabbits on both sides of the board.

What do you play after

28g Cb3w Db2n Hf3e Df4s
28s Rb5e ca5e Rc5n Rc6x cb5e

to go towards regaining the rabbit? I can't see any reason to think we'll be up a rabbit anywhere in the foreseeable future.

on 01/09/10 at 14:04:29, Adanac wrote:

In the last variation we keep a big material advantage, but with an even less solid position:

28g Df4e Dg4e rg5s Hf3e
28s Cb3w db4s ra4e hg6s
29g Capture rabbit with horse
29s hg5s rb8e rc8s re7e

Agreed, this looks bad.

on 01/09/10 at 14:04:29, Adanac wrote:

28s ed3n ed4e Df4n ee4e
29g Ec5e Ed5n de6(s or w) Ed6e
and silver needs to protect f6. But maybe
29s ra7e rb7e rc7e re7e
30g Db3w Da3e ra4s (Hf3e or ?)
30s db4e Rb5e ca5e rd7s
is not so promising for us. Hmmm.

Errr, I think I've forgotten half of what I wrote.

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by RonWeasley on Jan 11^th, 2010, 8:43am

Are we ready to vote? Or shall we try voice vote for Cb3w Db2n Hf3e Df4s? That's the move I like to occupy the key squares and protect the dog on f4.

Count just me as 1 and I'll move it if we get 6. Those objecting, please make counter offers now.

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by Adanac on Jan 11^th, 2010, 11:49am

on 01/11/10 at 08:43:35, RonWeasley wrote:

I can't connect to the gameroom right now to check how much time we have left in reserve:

If we have less than 1 week remaining then I'll vote for this proposed move right now.

If we have more than 1 week, then I'd prefer to leave the debate open for a few days. Chessandgo's suggested moves might give us an opportunity to play more aggressively and improve our material advantage.

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by Hannoskaj on Jan 11^th, 2010, 12:27pm

I'm not very fond of giving back the rabbit immediately, even if it looks like sure long-term advantage, however small. Even if we keep it for a few more moves, Silver will have to use the time to take it. Meanwhile it is a lock on the queenside.

If we want to make more of it, then we have to unfreeze it through b4.
From here, this move comes to mind:

28g Cb3w Db2n Ec4n db4e

We want to play sequences like Db3n Ec5e Rb5e Db4n Ed5e etc... or even bring the f4 dog on d6 once the horse is secure and locks the kingside on g3. Alternatively, if we can, it is better to use the a3 cat than the b3 dog to unfreeze rabbit.

Meanwhile, right now, Silver must also take the pressure on the dog into account, plus vague ideas of frame (either dog or rabbit).

For example probably the most violent answer is
28s Ra4e cc3s Dc4s Rb4e
29g Ra1ee Ra2e Ca3n (Hf3e?)
I have trouble finding a convincing answer for Silver. Though the position is complicated, so there might be one.

Other tries for Silver:
28s Ed3n Dc4w xx
is slow. Anyhow we always have time for putting our horse on g3 in this case.

28s Rh5ss Hg6ws
maybe
29g Hf3e Df4w (idea to d6) Ec5ee
for example (probably far from optimal for Silver)
29s Ed3e rb5e Ca5e Rh6s
30g De4wnn Cc3e

The best for Silver might be
28s Ed3nee df4n
Then I have trouble finding a better move than
29g Cc3e(or s) E takes d Hf3e ***EDIT: there's a better line in my following post***
29s E takes d Eg4
with sharp asymmetric position, with little material, where we are up a cat.

Thoughts?

Title: Re: Move 28b5
Post by Manuel on Jan 12^th, 2010, 5:41am

I actually do not see what is wrong with the move I suggested:
Cc3s Df4e Dg4s rg5s
Our dog on f4 is brought to safety AND a rabbit is attacked in exchange for the rabbit on b5.
In the west I don't see what attack of silver we should be afraid of; we can always put our dog to b3 later.

In respons to Hannoskaj: In your move our dog at f4 is in danger.

Title: Re: Move 28b5
Post by Hannoskaj on Jan 12^th, 2010, 8:19am

on 01/12/10 at 05:41:48, Manuel wrote:

Well, that's an interesting move since it more or less defends b5 for one move, but on the other hand, it really yields the important squares.
On the kingside, it's the horse we would like to see on g3, so that Silver cannot put his (cf (**)).

So how would you continue after:
28s cb3w Db4s Hg6s Rg4e ?

If
29g Ec4we db3n Db2n
the easiest for Silver is taking rabbit, probably with cat, and there are still ideas on the kingside (plus the fact that if the elephant moves, the dog may go to c2), and maybe there is better than this. Anyhow that would be giving up our rabbit.

Taking dog hostage seems theoretically bad since there are horses free,
and moreover our pieces would be jammed together
29g Db2s Ec4w db3s Eb4s
(**) 29s Hg5s dg3e Hg4s x (Rh4w)
with risks of having dog quelled and the nearby elephant does not bode well.

Otherwise our elephant is tied to c3...

Maybe the best would be to continue with the same kind of ideas:
29g Dg3e rh4w Dh3n Hf3e
to be compared with 28g Df4ee rg5s Hf3e
and the comments by Adanac thereon. We have lost one move. Silver even has fun moves like 29s Rg4wwss.

I am not really convinced.

Quote:

In respons to Hannoskaj: In your move our dog at f4 is in danger.

Would you please provide lines?

A priori we can stuff it later if need be, there is no immediate threat.
The most urgent are the rabbit b5 and the cases b3 and g3.

The only way Silver can immediately slash at dog is by giving up its own.

By the way, in that line, I had not written in the previous message that I think we are clearly better if Silver takes dog after
28g Cb3w Db2n Ec4n db4e
28s Ed3nee df4n
29g Cc3e(or s) E takes d Db4n

but I am not completely sure we can survive after the dog sacrifice:
29s Rg5ss Ef4e Rg3s
My goal defense is certainly bad, but I find it hard to stop the rabbit if we take time to keep the dog. Typically, the elephant can pull h2, let the Silver rabbit on h2 and go to g1. What do computers say in those positions?

EDIT: In fact
30g Dwwn Rh1w
looks very strong.

I had missed it since I wanted to defend solidly with Re1ee, but with that move, we have a goal threat so Silver does not have time to pull h2. He has to take time defending but we have the initiative and will score first (or have time to bring back elephant and first-row rabbit).

Title: Re: Move 28b5
Post by Nombril on Jan 13^th, 2010, 4:09am

on 01/12/10 at 08:19:50, Hannoskaj wrote:

I think we are clearly better if Silver takes dog after
28g Cb3w Db2n Ec4n db4e
28s Ed3nee df4n
29g Cc3e(or s) E takes d Db4n

I think
28s: rg5w hgsss or even Cc3s ed3w Cc2w ec3s would be tough for us.

I have been trying to figure out a way to invite a dog trade, but I doubt silver would accept it since he would make our extra cat stronger. So, I don't think we need to worry about our f4 dog being attacked by the e.

What about

28s: Cc3s Cb3w Db2n Hf3e

If silver takes our rabbit with the cat, we frame it.
If silver takes our rabbit with the dog, we advance Db3nnn

Although I think silver rather likes our b5 rabbit where it is, since it prevents much movement on that wing. So we should be expecting responses that don't involve taking the rabbit or attacking Df4 with e.

Title: Re: Move 28b5
Post by Hannoskaj on Jan 13^th, 2010, 4:43am

on 01/13/10 at 04:09:45, Nombril wrote:

I think
28s: rg5w hgsss or even Cc3s ed3w Cc2w ec3s would be tough for us.

I was on the brink of mentioning those two moves.
28s Cc3s ed3w Cc2w ec3s
is easy to deal with:
29g Df4wws Hf3e

On the other hand,
28s: rg5w hgsss
is very strong and natural,
since it is the place that was left unattended by this 28g and I do not know why I had not thought of it before. And in fact it's a real nuisance, since what with the wall on the f column and our having moved the elephant further away, we cannot even get the elephant within two steps of the camel. I do not see a satisfying 29g right now.

Quote:

What about

28s: Cc3s Cb3w Db2n Hf3e

I thought that was the favoured move till now. I've just now noticed it was the other dog that was moved. Among the moves that give up Rb5, it is my favourite so far.

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by RonWeasley on Jan 13^th, 2010, 6:00am

We're just about to go into our reserve. I'm not personally compelled by the arguments for the Ec4n moves. Of the Cb3w Db2n He3e moves, I still worry about our f4 dog being a target.

How about one more day for final arguments and then vote?

Title: Re: Move 28b5
Post by Hippo on Jan 13^th, 2010, 6:10am

on 01/13/10 at 04:09:45, Nombril wrote:

What about

28s: Cc3s Cb3w Db2n Hf3e

Yes it sounds much better then mine
28s: Cc3s Cb3e Db2n Hf3e.

If I remember the position well the difference is silver could go with his dog through the trap. Is there a danger with it?

Actually I spent more time with WC than with the Mob so ...

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by Adanac on Jan 13^th, 2010, 6:08pm

on 01/13/10 at 06:00:34, RonWeasley wrote:

After reading all the alternative ideas, I still like our original proposal of 28g Cb3w Db2n Hf3e Df4s. Of course, our rabbit could very well drop on 28s but we can create new threats soon.

If Fritzlein later shifts his elephant east to protect the f3 trap, then we can either try to threaten the western silver dog, or (after it runs away) use our a3 cat to push a silver rabbit east to b4. Fritzlein's dog will be useless on b4 so I think he's going to have to generate counter-activity in the east, probably by concentrating all his forces in the southeast. But I like our chances of repelling it.

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by RonWeasley on Jan 16^th, 2010, 5:01pm

7 mobsters voted, but only one move could win. Actually, there was a tie (3-3). The winners:

Cc3s Cb3w Db2n Hf3e and Cb3w Db2n Hf3e Df4s.

I flipped a galleon, as mobsters do on TV, see? The winner was

Cc3s Cb3w Db2n Hf3e.

It nearly injured itself celebrating.

Notice that our time reserve is getting low.

Title: Re: Move 28
Post by Hippo on Jan 19^th, 2010, 1:40am

I like your coin flip :)