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        Team Games >> 2009 One vs TheMob >> Move 31
        
(Message started by: RonWeasley on Feb 17^th, 2010, 6:16am)

Title: Move 31
Post by RonWeasley on Feb 17^th, 2010, 6:16am

I'm expecting 30s Rc5n Rc6x cb5e hd5n ed3e.

This keeps gold from advancing the R on f4 because the r on g4 becomes a goal threat. It keeps gold from pushing the h south with the E and making it a hostage.

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by Manuel on Feb 23^rd, 2010, 4:51am

Fritz played:
30s ed3n Rc5n Rc6x hd5w ed4e

I am thinking along the line:
31g de6n Ee5n Dg5n Rh2n

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by jdb on Feb 23^rd, 2010, 8:30am

The f2 square will need to be defended. Once the f4 rabbit advances the f3 trap will need defenders.

Its probably better to push the e6 dog to d6 instead of e7. Gold is attacking the f6 trap, so we should get the dog as far away from that trap as possible.

31g Dg5n de6w Ee5n (Rh2w or Re1e or Re1n or Rd1e)

I don't know which of the options for the last step is best.

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by Sconibulus on Feb 23^rd, 2010, 10:06am

I concur with jdb, and recommend Re1e as the final move. I'm not entirely sure why, it just looks like a nicer position at the end than any of the others.

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by chessandgo on Feb 23^rd, 2010, 2:17pm

31g de6w Ee5n Dg5n Re1n/e looks logical, but silver can answer
31s hc5e hd5e he5e ee4s
and I'm not sure what we can do next.

How about 31g Re1n Re2e Rf2n Dg5n, not moving the Elephant to prevent silver's horse from reaching f5, and preparing to advance the f4 Rabbit on next move? Silver could flip our Rf4 to prevent that, but we could just occupy f3 and f4 again with Rabbits:

31g Re1n Re2e Rf2n Dg5n
31s ee4s Rf4w Re4w ee3n
32g Rd2e Re2e Rf3n Rf2n

Well, this 31g does not threaten capture on f3, but
31g Re1n Re2e Dg5n x lets silver push the Rf4 back to f3. The goal attack on the east seems pretty important.

EDIT: oh, and it seems to me that the Re1 would be better used on f2 than the Rh2. With two silver advanced rabbits and a single piece to defend, we don't want to weaken our goal defense. In any case, silver might try to mess with our Hg3 with his elephant if we give him time to.

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by Nombril on Feb 23^rd, 2010, 7:59pm

Tonight, I think 31g Re1n Re2e Rf2n Dg5n is great, I don't see a way for silver to stall that goal threat.

But just to throw another option out there...in case someone sees a way out for Fritz, would this be an option to go after the horse?

31g Ee5w hc5s Ed5w Dg5n

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by 722caasi on Feb 23^rd, 2010, 8:33pm

I think creating a goal threat is the best think we can do with this turn, so I support chessandgo

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by aaaa on Feb 24^th, 2010, 8:50pm

It's too bad it didn't get the scoop here, but after being run for quite some time, Quad actually came up with the same move (after sticking to 31g de6n Ee5n Dg5n Re1n for almost all of the time). For proof, here is the entire principal variation (even if the moves do become more dubious, the deeper they are in the line):

31g Dg5n Re1e Rf1n Rf2n
31s Rf4n ee4e Rf5n ef4n
32g Ee5w de6s Rf6w Dg6w
32s Re6w Df6x de5n Rd6w Rc6x de6w
33g hc5s Ed5w hc4s hc3x Ec5s

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by Manuel on Feb 25^th, 2010, 1:24am

I do think C&G's 31g Re1n Re2e Rf2n Dg5n is a nice move, but I am not yet convinced that attacking the f6 trap is not:
After
31g de6w Ee5n Dg5n Re1n
31s hc5e hd5e he5e ee4s
we can play
32g Dg6w Df6e rf7s Re2e

The f6 trap cannot be saved anymore (giving plenty of chances for slaughtering pieces afterwards) unless silver brings its elephant to e5. In that case we can start killing the advanced rabbits around f3.

@Nombril:
after 31g Ee5w hc5s Ed5w Dg5n
silver can play something like:
31s hc4e hd4n ee4n ee5e
does not look good to me!

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by Manuel on Feb 25^th, 2010, 1:29am

on 02/24/10 at 20:50:46, aaaa wrote:

Actually that variation I do not like at all, as it would be followed by:
33s rg4w rf4w re4s re3s

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by chessandgo on Feb 25^th, 2010, 3:43am

on 02/23/10 at 19:59:19, Nombril wrote:

But just to throw another option out there...in case someone sees a way out for Fritz, would this be an option to go after the horse?

31g Ee5w hc5s Ed5w Dg5n

Maybe 31s Hc4en ed4w hd5e allows silver to move his horse back towards f6 (32g Ec5e he5s Ed5e Re1n 32s Rf4s he4e hf4n ed4e).

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by chessandgo on Feb 25^th, 2010, 3:49am

on 02/24/10 at 20:50:46, aaaa wrote:

31s looks terrible to me. Just 32g de6w Ee5n Rf3n Rd2n looks already excellent for gold. And I agree with Manuel for 33s.

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by chessandgo on Feb 25^th, 2010, 3:59am

on 02/25/10 at 01:24:34, Manuel wrote:

After
31g de6w Ee5n Dg5n Re1n
31s hc5e hd5e he5e ee4s
we can play
32g Dg6w Df6e rf7s Re2e

The f6 trap cannot be saved anymore (giving plenty of chances for slaughtering pieces afterwards) unless silver brings its elephant to e5. In that case we can start killing the advanced rabbits around f3.

oho, nice. The resulting position does look fine, after say

31g Dg5n de6w Ee5n Re1n
31s hc5e hd5e he5e ee4s
32g Dg6w Df6e rf7s Re2e
32s ee3n ee4n rb8e rc8e
33g Hg3s rg4s rg3w rf3x Hg2n
33s rd8e re8e rf8s ra7e.

We capture a rabbit, but silver's horse might hostage our Dog (or cover f3 on next move if we pull the rh4). The Dog hostage would not be so bad actually I think.

I wonder what we can get after
31g Re1e Rf1n Rf2n Dg5n

31s hc5n hc6e de6e df6s looks bad after
32g Ee5n df5w Rf4n Rf3n

but, silver might rather play:

31s hc5n hc6e de6e hd6e
32g Rf4n Rf3n he6w Ee5n

and
32s Rf5w df6s ee4s or 32s Rf5w df6s Rf4s ee4e
seem to defend.

So maybe 31g de6w Ee5n Dg5n Re1n is indeed better?

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by Hippo on Feb 25^th, 2010, 9:02am

My first impression is to take the g4 rabbit.
Is our potential goal threat or f6 trap control fight more valuable?

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by RonWeasley on Feb 25^th, 2010, 10:05am

I am liking 31g de6w Ee5n Dg5n Re1n.

I like the awkward position of silver around f6. It will require babysitting by silver e and that gives gold time to capture the g4 rabbit in the future. The h can't do it because then goal pulls the f7 rabbit to f6.

This also creates a small hole on the d-file that may keep the silver h from advancing for at least another move. If it does, we threaten to move a gold rabbit to d7, which will goal the next turn.

While this move give gold a tempo advantage, I'm not sure how to use it all assuming silver plays well. Do we want to shift things around c3, maybe get the a3 cat into play? Maybe try to take both east side rabbits? The thing I like about the proposed move is that it gives us initiative and time to choose.

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by Manuel on Feb 26^th, 2010, 1:07am

on 02/25/10 at 09:02:31, Hippo wrote:

My first impression is to take the g4 rabbit.
Is our potential goal threat or f6 trap control fight more valuable?

If we take the g4 rabbit right now, silver will take the f4 rabbit into the f6 trap and as a bonus threaten both our dog and our horse...

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by chessandgo on Feb 26^th, 2010, 9:06am

Ok, so maybe

31g de6w Ee5n Dg5n Re1n
31s Rf4s ee4e ef4n hc5e

Maybe then

32g Rf3n Re2n Re3n Re4n
32s hd5s hd4e Rf4s he4e
33g Rd2n Rd3n Rd4e Rf3w

I'm not sure that we can force a capture; the question is: "is our attack stronger in the lines following this 31s than after playing R->f3 on 31g?"

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by Nombril on Feb 26^th, 2010, 12:01pm

Regarding directly attacking the f6 trap (31g de6w Ee5n Dg5n Re1n)

I still have misgivings about committing our elephant to the f6 trap before we have a rabbit in position as well. (But if no holes are shot in the following analysis, then I am leaning towards this idea.) Both elephants would be tied up at f6, and our horse and other dog are committed to goal defense with all of the advanced silver rabbits. I don't see how to do it, but will Fritzlein come up with a way to use his "free" horse to cause problems?

For the 4th step - is Re1n mandatory? I was wondering about Rh2n, to help keep the two silver rabbits between our horse and the silver elephant.

on 02/25/10 at 10:05:53, RonWeasley wrote:

I like the awkward position of silver around f6. It will require babysitting by silver e and that gives gold time to capture the g4 rabbit in the future. The h can't do it because then goal pulls the f7 rabbit to f6.

This also creates a small hole on the d-file that may keep the silver h from advancing for at least another move. If it does, we threaten to move a gold rabbit to d7, which will goal the next turn.

Do you mean de6 to be pushed n or e ? It seems that if it is pushed w we can't do some of the things you mentioned.

on 02/26/10 at 09:06:06, chessandgo wrote:

In this line, I'd think we would keep the center lanes open to give our elephant the ability to go after the silver horse if it advances to our side of the board. I think we might have to give up the goal attack to make sure silver can't put our rabbit in the way of our elephant. So continuing after
31g de6w Ee5n Dg5n Re1n
31s Rf4s ee4e ef4n hc5e
maybe then
32g Rf3w Re3w Rh2n +1 more step?

Can silver protect both f3 and f6 after that? If not, then I think the answer to C&G's question is that this is a stronger (faster) attack compared to R->f3.

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by chessandgo on Feb 26^th, 2010, 12:08pm

on 02/26/10 at 12:01:29, Nombril wrote:

So continuing after
31g de6w Ee5n Dg5n Re1n
31s Rf4s ee4e ef4n hc5e
maybe then
32g Rf3w Re3w Rh2n +1 more step?

Can silver protect both f3 and f6 after that? If not, then I think the answer to C&G's question is that this is a stronger (faster) attack compared to R->f3.

32s rg4ww hd4e x for example?

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by Nombril on Feb 27^th, 2010, 12:36pm

Hmmm. I think I shall consider that a hole in yesterday's thinking. So I'm back to looking at advancing the rabbits. (31g Re1e Rf1n Rf2n Dg5n) I think the concern here is that if silver can manage a goal defense without the elephant, our elephant will be tied to f6 to protect the dog and rabbit(s) while the silver elephant can attack either of our home traps?

on 02/25/10 at 03:59:58, chessandgo wrote:

31s hc5n hc6e de6e hd6e
32g Rf4n Rf3n he6w Ee5n

and
32s Rf5w df6s ee4s or 32s Rf5w df6s Rf4s ee4e
seem to defend.

So maybe 31g de6w Ee5n Dg5n Re1n is indeed better?

Could we respond with
33g hd6s Ee6w hd5s Ed6s ?

It seems we are mostly talking about two options. Are there any other choices? Are we ignoring our extra cat?

31g Dg5n Ra2e Ca3s ra4s

To take that rabbit on 32g we would have to give up the b3 spot to the dog. But on first glance I find it appealing to have immediate capture threats at 2 traps and the ED attack threat at another.

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by RonWeasley on Mar 1^st, 2010, 6:23am

Closing arguments, please. Vote beginning Tuesday unless more issues come up.

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by Hippo on Mar 3^rd, 2010, 1:28am

Seems I cannot vote for 4 steps rg4->f3.

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by RonWeasley on Mar 3^rd, 2010, 6:01am

on 03/03/10 at 01:28:47, Hippo wrote:

Seems I cannot vote for 4 steps rg4->f3.

Oops. It looked like that move got refuted and discarded in the discussion.

Let me offer this. If anyone thinks we should start the vote again with that move added, please post your desire and we will do it. On the other hand, if nobody wants to vote that as their number one, I would like to proceed without it.

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by aaaa on Mar 3^rd, 2010, 10:01am

on 03/03/10 at 06:01:41, RonWeasley wrote:

On the other hand, if nobody wants to vote that as their number one, I would like to proceed without it.

I know you're trying to be practical here, but it should be pointed out that this goes against the idea behind Condorcet, which finds the compromise candidate based on how it's pairwise assessed with respect to every other candidate, ignoring the absolute position it takes up on the ballots.

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by RonWeasley on Mar 3^rd, 2010, 10:52am

on 03/03/10 at 10:01:50, aaaa wrote:

Yes that's true. Let me amend my request. If anybody thinks they would rank the rabbit capture anywhere near the top of their rankings, we could do it over.

The reason I'm not just re-voting on this one is that I believe the rabbit capture move will not have an effect on the winning outcome. It conceivably could have an effect on the relative position of the lower ranking moves, but getting that right is not worth the time. I'm making an assumption about other people's preferences and the candidate scoring, so please let me know if I'm wrong enough that we should do it over.

So far, the comments say to me we realize leaving out the rabbit capture make the vote impure, but nobody seems to be saying it will change things enough so that we must re-vote. Please let me know if you don't agree.

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by Nombril on Mar 3^rd, 2010, 11:33am

There were actually a lot of moves discussed that were left off. (That includes my last suggestion that was offered a bit late to get any discussion.) But, according to the 'about this game' info, "Typically, after about a week of discussion, the Mob Coordinator, RonWeasley, will e-mail Mob members with a ballot containing the most popular suggestions. "

I agree with Ron's assessment that taking the rabbit was not a popular suggestion, it was pointed out that silver's response would be to take our rabbit and end with the elephant threatening our dog and horse. After that, the move was not discussed again.

Ron, I wonder if the "closing arguments" request that you normally send would be a good place to list the moves that you plan to put on the ballot? That would give folks a chance to point out any favorites that are missing.

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by RonWeasley on Mar 3^rd, 2010, 12:41pm

on 03/03/10 at 11:33:49, Nombril wrote:

Ron, I wonder if the "closing arguments" request that you normally send would be a good place to list the moves that you plan to put on the ballot? That would give folks a chance to point out any favorites that are missing.

A good suggestion. I will try to do this. I can paste from my move list to highlight any transcription errors.

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by RonWeasley on Mar 3^rd, 2010, 1:35pm

In spite of the irregularities, I ended the voting on schedule. 8 votes producing the winner: de6w Ed5n Dg5n Re1n

So we're going after f6 trap control with torches and pitchforks.

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by chessandgo on Mar 4^th, 2010, 1:12am

on 02/26/10 at 01:07:12, Manuel wrote:

If we take the g4 rabbit right now, silver will take the f4 rabbit into the f6 trap and as a bonus threaten both our dog and our horse...

I agree with Ron and Manuel that capturing the rg4 was not a good idea, and I support Ron in not picking this move as a candidate.

Good idea Nombril btw

Title: Re: Move 31
Post by Hippo on Mar 4^th, 2010, 4:14am

OK, I have spent low time on Mob this move so sorry for confussion ... I was behind firewall when I wanted to recapitulate things and I have spent a lot of time with Fritz/Tron instead.

The choosen move looks well at least according to the discussion :) so it is absolutely OK.