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        Team Games >> 2009 One vs TheMob >> Move 32
        
(Message started by: RonWeasley on Mar 8th, 2010, 6:39am)
Title: Move 32
Post by RonWeasley on Mar 8th, 2010, 6:39am
Silver moves: 31s Rf4n ee4e Rf5w ef4n

My first reaction is to capture the r on g4.  e can't capture the H on g3 because the R on e5 would goal on the next move.

Another gold threat is dd6w Ee6w Ed6s Rf5n and the goal threat must be covered by the pieces around c6.  This limits the advances silver can make toward c3.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by chessandgo on Mar 8th, 2010, 8:51am
yeah, capturing the rg4 looks good. After R to e6 silver can just push back the R to e5 with the dog, it does not look good for us.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Sconibulus on Mar 8th, 2010, 9:49pm
In response to our capture, I see silver horse east and elephant southeast, with the final step being either pulling the gold dog south, or pushing the rabbit to h3.

Both of these threats look handle-able the former by creating a goal threat, and the latter by capturing the f7 rabbit while pulling the dog back to defend the horse and f3 trap.

Unless anyone sees any devastating counterplay, I agree with the capture policy.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Hannoskaj on Mar 9th, 2010, 12:26am
If taking, what do we reply to
32s Hc5es re5w Cb5e (or Db4e, or x) ?

For example
33g Ee6ss Dg6n Re2n
33s Db4e Hd4s Ef5en
34g Ee4w Rd5e dc4w Ed4w
looks good, but I think that each and every move in this tense line is suboptimal.

EDIT: Db4e as fourth step for 32s is definitely stronger. It covers the c3 trap since as long as there is a d5 rabbit, pushing the horse would put it on d3. Immediate threats include the rock-solid 33s Dd6n rd5wsx Cb5e, 33s rd5w Hd4n rc5sx Dc4n, threat on g3 horse, and pressure on g6 dog.

EDIT2: Maybe then 33g Db3n Ca3e ra4s Re2e ?
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by chessandgo on Mar 9th, 2010, 1:52am

on 03/09/10 at 00:26:16, Hannoskaj wrote:
If taking, what do we reply to
32s Hc5es re5w Cb5e (or Db4e, or x) ?

For example
33g Ee6ss Dg6n Re2n
33s Db4w Hd4s Ef5ws
34g Ee4w Rd5e dc4w Ed4w
looks good, but I think that each and every move in this tense line is suboptimal.

EDIT: Db4e as fourth step for 32s is definitely stronger. It covers the c3 trap since as long as there is a d5 rabbit, pushing the horse would put it on d3. Immediate threats include the rock-solid 33s Dd6n rd5wsx Cb5e, 33s rd5w Hd4n rc5sx Dc4n, threat on g3 horse, and pressure on g6 dog.

EDIT2: Maybe then 33g Db3n Ca3e ra4s Re2e ?


Ef5es or Ef5en you mean I guess?

I don't think pulling the ra4 to a3 is often going to be good. This position is about goal threats, we don't want to give silver better goal threats by pulling any rabbit closer to the goal line. Espiecially when silver can get an e+d attack around the c3 trap as in your line.

I think that:
32g Hg3s rg4s rg3w rf3x Hg2n
32s hc5e hd5s Re5w db4e
33g dd6w Ee6w Rd5e Ed6e
is fine, silver could semi-repeat the position with:
33s hd4n hd5w Re5w dc6e
34g Rd2n Rd3n Rd5e Re2n

This looks good for us, the extra advanced Rabbits make this exchange excellent for gold, so I don't think silver can afford such a 33s move.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Manuel on Mar 9th, 2010, 4:27am
What would you think of advancing the extra rabbits right now?:
32g Rd2nn Re2nn

This creates a goal threat with the e5 rabbit.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by RonWeasley on Mar 9th, 2010, 6:02am

on 03/09/10 at 04:27:36, Manuel wrote:
What would you think of advancing the extra rabbits right now?:
32g Rd2nn Re2nn

This creates a goal threat with the e5 rabbit.

So far all the lines I look at after this favor gold.  There are lots of them.  Goal threats through the east and center.  I can't settle on silver's best defense.  This move deserves serious consideration.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Hannoskaj on Mar 9th, 2010, 8:51am

on 03/09/10 at 01:52:53, chessandgo wrote:
Ef5es or Ef5en you mean I guess?

Corrected.


Quote:
I don't think pulling the ra4 to a3 is often going to be good. This position is about goal threats, we don't want to give silver better goal threats by pulling any rabbit closer to the goal line. Espiecially when silver can get an e+d attack around the c3 trap as in your line.


Well, the idea was that if Silver takes the d5 rabbit, either we immediately gain the a3 rabbit, or we can play Ed4 Dg7 posing huge problems to the Silver c4 dog. The Silver elephant is momentarily tied to f6, otherwise the f7 rabbit falls and our f2 rabbit is very fast.
If Silver does not take the d5 rabbit, I thought the b4 dog could support it. It's quite likely that immediate attack on c3 with horse and dog is too much to handle, though.


Quote:
I think that:
32g Hg3s rg4s rg3w rf3x Hg2n
32s hc5e hd5s Re5w db4e
33g dd6w Ee6w Rd5e Ed6e

So we rely on the no-repeat-position rule. That always looks like last resort. Is that the best we could do? And can't Silver do better?


Quote:
What would you think of advancing the extra rabbits right now?:
32g Rd2nn Re2nn

This move is much fun and looks good.
Just for fun: if Silver plays
32s Hc5ew re5w x (but not Rg4w or the like)
I think the elephant sacrifice
33g Ee6e Rd4nnn
works if Silver accepts it...
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Nombril on Mar 9th, 2010, 1:46pm
My first thought had been the more boring:

32g: Dg6w Df6e rf7s x (maybe Re2n)


With
32g Rd2nn Re2nn
would
32s rb8eees
slow things down enough to give silver more options?  I'm a bit nervous about having no other defenders near f3 if things get bogged down on the goal attack.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Hippo on Mar 9th, 2010, 2:16pm
Seems killer move heuristics ... 32s: Hc5ew re5w Db4e is mostly good response, but does not work well against Rnn Rnn move.

(33g: dd6w Ee6w Re4nn 33s: ef5n Re6s ef6w dc6n 34g Re5e Dg6we rf7s ... 33s: ef5wn Re6e dc6n 34g: Hg3n rg4w Hg4w rf4sx ...)

may be 32s ra7eeee (or instead rb8 to e7)
but freezing rf7 at 33g and replacing Ee6 with re5 on 34g would be devastating.

Yes, I like 32g Rd2nn Re2nn

[edit] Written in parallel with Nombril :)[/edit]

silver could put horse or dog on d7/e7 as well
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by aaaa on Mar 10th, 2010, 6:59pm
Principal variation from bot:

32g Hg3e rg4s rg3w rf3x Hh3w
32s db4e hc5e hd5s Re5w
33g Re2n Hg3e Hh3w rh4s
33s hd4s hd3w Db3n hc3w
34g dd6w Ee6w Rd2n Ed6e
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Arimabuff on Mar 11th, 2010, 4:04am
Just take the rabbit.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Manuel on Mar 11th, 2010, 4:30am

on 03/11/10 at 04:04:54, Arimabuff wrote:
Just take the rabbit.



Then silver will pull our rabbit:
32s hc5e hd5w Re5w rb8e
or attack our c3 trap:
32s hc5e hd5s Re5w db4e
followed by 33s hd4s hd3w Db3n hc3w

(see previous remarks of Hannoskaj and aaaa)
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by RonWeasley on Mar 11th, 2010, 6:13am

on 03/10/10 at 18:59:09, aaaa wrote:
Principal variation from bot:

32g Hg3e rg4s rg3w rf3x Hh3w
32s db4e hc5e hd5s Re5w
33g Re2n Hg3e Hh3w rh4s
33s hd4s hd3w Db3n hc3w
34g dd6w Ee6w Rd2n Ed6e

An alternative 33g dd6n Ee6w Rd5e Dg6n leads to sharp play where I so far believe silver stops the goal threat and gold retains slight advantage.  But I don't recommend inviting sharp positions against Fritzlein if we don't have to.

I think advancing the two rabbits is safer.  It is a more sustained goal threat.  It blocks the silver horse from b3 and keeps c3 safer.  It puts pieces closer to f3 making it safer too.  All those rabbits touching each other is proving to be very flexible.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Nombril on Mar 11th, 2010, 7:07am
I'm now supporting 32g Rd2nn Re2nn.  I don't see anyway to stop the goal attack without committing e, h, and one d to the defense.  If that many pieces get pulled back to f6 defense, then we have time to take rabbits at f3.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Hannoskaj on Mar 11th, 2010, 2:01pm
On
32g Rd2nn Re2nn
32s Ra7eeee (in that case obviously better than Rb8seee: a rabbit cannot go back.)
what good continuation do we have ?

We cannot take g4 anymore, since the elephant has time to take, if I am not wrong.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Nombril on Mar 11th, 2010, 4:43pm

on 03/11/10 at 14:01:32, Hannoskaj wrote:
On
32g Rd2nn Re2nn
32s Ra7eeee (in that case obviously better than Rb8seee: a rabbit cannot go back.)
what good continuation do we have ?
I don't think it is obviously better than Rb8seee.  r next to our E does prevent flipping the dog and blocks the path if our E steps aside.  But I still don't think it does more than slow down our goal attack after 32g Rd2nn Re2nn.

After
32g Rd2nn Re2nn
32s Ra7eeee
then isn't
33g: dd6s Ee6w re5nn

goal in one?
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by 722caasi on Mar 11th, 2010, 9:42pm
After
32g Rd2nn Re2nn  
32s Ra7eeee
Then 33g: dd6s Ee6w re5nn is impossible because the e7 rabit blocks.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by chessandgo on Mar 12th, 2010, 2:40am

on 03/09/10 at 08:51:28, Hannoskaj wrote:
So we rely on the no-repeat-position rule. That always looks like last resort. Is that the best we could do? And can't Silver do better?


fwiw I think the repeat rule is of major importance in arimaa, and is possibly highly underestimated by many players, used only "as a last resort" as you say.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Nombril on Mar 12th, 2010, 3:00am
Sorry, I was looking at rb8 moving eeee when I wrote the previous post.  With ra7eeee, we can use Hippo's suggestion:
on 03/09/10 at 14:16:50, Hippo wrote:
may be 32s ra7eeee (or instead rb8 to e7)
but freezing rf7 at 33g and replacing Ee6 with re5 on 34g would be devastating.

Not sure the exact steps he intended, but I'm looking at:
33g Dg6we rf7n Rd4n (4th step could have other options)
33s ??
34g dd6w Ee6w re5n re4n
as being able to continue the goal attack.

Not as convincing as goal in 1, but I still didn't see a way out for silver.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by chessandgo on Mar 12th, 2010, 3:07am
interesting. I see:

32g Re2n Re3n Rd2n Rd3n
32s hc5e dd6n dd7e cb5e
33g de7w Ee6n Re5n Re4n
33s hd5n Re5w Re6s hd6e

and I see, I see (hands coiling round a crystal ball)

32g Re2n Re3n Rd2n Rd3n
32s hc5e dd6n dd7e cb5e
33g de7n Ee6n Re5n Re4n
33s hd5n hd6n Re6w rg4w

The central attack is interesting, certainly something we need to analyse carefully, either for this move or the next ones. The tactics would probably work better with the rg4 captured, as silver will not have goal threats when we vacate the e4 square, as in the last variation.

Also, maybe this is uninteresting, but 32s hc5e dd6n dd7e cb5e looks like a natural defense to consider, more natural than moving a rabbit to e7, in the sense that to defend against an advanced enemy rabbit, one should place a piece (not a rabbit) in front of it. The ability to freeze an enemy rabbit is the main tool to prevent it from reaching goal.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by chessandgo on Mar 12th, 2010, 3:09am

on 03/11/10 at 06:13:59, RonWeasley wrote:
An alternative 33g dd6n Ee6w Rd5e Dg6n leads to sharp play where I so far believe silver stops the goal threat and gold retains slight advantage.  But I don't recommend inviting sharp positions against Fritzlein if we don't have to.

I think advancing the two rabbits is safer.  It is a more sustained goal threat.  It blocks the silver horse from b3 and keeps c3 safer.  It puts pieces closer to f3 making it safer too.  All those rabbits touching each other is proving to be very flexible.


I would recommend sharp positions on the contrary, and I think f3 gets weaker since we can't move a second piece to cover f3 within 2 steps if silver moves his rg4 or his elephant to f4.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by chessandgo on Mar 12th, 2010, 3:12am

on 03/11/10 at 04:30:51, Manuel wrote:
Then silver will pull our rabbit:
32s hc5e hd5w Re5w rb8e
or attack our c3 trap:
32s hc5e hd5s Re5w db4e
followed by 33s hd4s hd3w Db3n hc3w

(see previous remarks of Hannoskaj and aaaa)


32s hc5e hd5w Re5w rb8e
33g Rd2n Rd3n Rd5e Re2n

and

32s hc5e hd5s Re5w db4e
33g dd6w Ee6w Rd5e Ed6e (repeat rule favors gold)
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Nombril on Mar 12th, 2010, 4:04am
I've been finding that having our horse tied to rabbits and goal defense is a positional disadvantage for gold.  Maybe it would be better to get that cleaned up before moving too many more defenders north.  Charging with two rabbits just sounded so exciting.  ;D
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by RonWeasley on Mar 12th, 2010, 6:36am

on 03/11/10 at 06:13:59, RonWeasley wrote:
An alternative 33g dd6n Ee6w Rd5e Dg6n leads to sharp play where I so far believe silver stops the goal threat and gold retains slight advantage.  But I don't recommend inviting sharp positions against Fritzlein if we don't have to.

If we take the g4 rabbit now, I'm no longer worried about 32s db4e hc5e hd5s Re5w, because gold can play

33g Dg6n Ee6s Ee5s Re2e

and in all lines I see gold getting the silver horse hostage, which would be winning on this board.  A silver goal attack on the east can be stopped and retreating the horse gives up the silver dog.

After 32g advancing two rabbits and silver responding with the a-file rabbit blocking, I have gold playing

33g dd6w Ee6w Re5n Re4n

I think gold is good here.  Here's a possible (long) continuation:

33s dc6n dc7e rb8e rc8e
34g Re6e Rd4e Re5n Re4n
34s ef5e Rf6s Rf5s eg5w
35g Ed6s hc5s Ed5w Rh2w
35s hc4e hd4e Rf4s he4e
36g Ec5s Ec4n db4e Db3n
36s hf4w he4w hd4s dd7s
37g Ec5e Ed5s hd3s Ed4s
37s dd6n Re6w Rd6w Rc6x dd7s
38g Ed3w Ec3e dc4s dc3x Dg6n
38s ef5n Re5e ef6e Rf5n Rf6x
39g Ed3n hd2n hd3w hc3x Ed4s
39s eg6w Dg7s ef6s Dg6w Df6x
40g Rf3w Ed3n Ed4e Ee4e
40s rh4s ef5e rg4e eg5s
41g Hg3w rh3w Hf3s rg3w rf3x
41s rh4s rh6s rh5s eg4s
42g Ef4e Re3n Re4e Db4e
42s Rg2e eg3s Hf2w eg2w
43g Eg4s Rf4e Ra2e Rb2n
43s rf7e re7e rg7e rf7e
44g Cc2e He2n ra4e Ca3n
44s ef2e eg2w Rh2w rh3s
45g He3n He4n He5n Rg4n
45s rg7s rd8e re8e rf8s
46g dd6n He6w Rg5w Rf5w
46s rf7w rg6s rg5w rf5s
47g Cd2n dd7n Hd6n Re5n
47s cb5e rb6s cc5e cd5n
48g cd6w cc6x Hd7s Hd6n Cd3e
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Hannoskaj on Mar 12th, 2010, 8:36am

on 03/12/10 at 06:36:43, RonWeasley wrote:
If we take the g4 rabbit now, I'm no longer worried about 32s db4e hc5e hd5s Re5w, because gold can play

33g Dg6n Ee6s Ee5s Re2e

and in all lines I see gold getting the silver horse hostage, which would be winning on this board.  A silver goal attack on the east can be stopped and retreating the horse gives up the silver dog.


What do you have on
33s rd5c5 Hd4d5 rc5c6x Dc4c5 ?
For example
34g Ee4c4d4 dc5c4
34s Cb5c5 Dc4b4 Hd5e6
is certainly playable, but  does not look final.


On the other hand, I still do not see anything very convincing on chessandgo's proposal.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by RonWeasley on Mar 12th, 2010, 9:27am

on 03/12/10 at 08:36:06, Hannoskaj wrote:
What do you have on
33s rd5c5 Hd4d5 rc5c6x Dc4c5 ?
For example
34g Ee4c4d4 dc5c4
34s Cb5c5 Dc4b4 Hd5e6
is certainly playable, but  does not look final.


On the other hand, I still do not see anything very convincing on chessandgo's proposal.

On 34g, I propose continuing:

34g Ee4n hd5s Ee5w Rd2n
34s dc5s Rd3e hd4s ef5s
35g Ed5s hd3s Ed4s Re3e
35s ef4e Rf3n Rf4n eg4w
36g rf7s rf6x Dg7w Db3n Ca3e

and getting a hostage horse in similar lines.

At this point I see two good moves:

32g Hg3s rg4s rg3w rf3x Hg2n and
32g Re2n Re3n Rd2n Rd3n

Any others to seriously consider?  At this point I think we can vote beginning Saturday.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by chessandgo on Mar 13th, 2010, 2:07am

on 03/12/10 at 06:36:43, RonWeasley wrote:
If we take the g4 rabbit now, I'm no longer worried about 32s db4e hc5e hd5s Re5w, because gold can play

33g Dg6n Ee6s Ee5s Re2e


I don't think there is any need to analyse this 32s unless you guys found something against 33g dd6w Ee6w Rd5e Ed6e as suggested previously?
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Nombril on Mar 13th, 2010, 4:51am
I prefer taking the rabbit.  But I like
32g: Dg6w Df6e rf7s x (maybe Re2n)
better than advancing rabbits.  I don't think anyone took the time to look at this, so maybe I'm missing something.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Hannoskaj on Mar 13th, 2010, 2:42pm
I've not analysed any further. A few thoughts however:
Nombril's move is interesting too.
I think I still prefer simply taking rabbit.
A point in favour of advancing rabbits instead of taking is that in the latter case Fritzlein will probably insta-reply. That's the obvious move,for which he was certainly already prepared when he played 31s. On the other hand, he'll probably think a while if we advance rabbits.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Hippo on Mar 14th, 2010, 1:48am

on 03/13/10 at 04:51:31, Nombril wrote:
I prefer taking the rabbit.  But I like
32g: Dg6w Df6e rf7s x (maybe Re2n)
better than advancing rabbits.  I don't think anyone took the time to look at this, so maybe I'm missing something.


I like that move, will silver let f6 rabbit die? But breaking the frame would not be fast and we could take g4 rabbit meanwhile.
32g Dg6w Df6e rf7s Re2n
32s hc5e hd5w Re5w (rb8e/Db4e)
33g Rd2n Rd3n Rd5e Re3n
But attacking e5 rabbit seems would lead to huge advance in the middle. It seems to me be almost unstopable ...
Is that OK?
(To be able to capture g4 rabbit in this variant we have to put rabbit to f4 later, but I don't suppose we need to do that.)

Silver would probably push e5 rabbit backwards on 32s in which case we would gladly capture g4 one.

something like ...
32g Ee6e Ef6w rf7s Re2n
32s hc5e Re5s hd5e cb5e/rb8e ... leading to the same position after 33s
33g Hg3s rg4s rg3w rf3x Hg2n
33s rb8e rc8e rd8e re8e ... or unfreezing by dog or cat in 34s
34g Hg3n Hg4s rh4w Rh2n
34s rf8s ef5e Dg6n eg5n

I vote for this move.

but
32g Ee6e Ef6w rf7s Re2n
32s hc5e Re5s hd5e cb5e
33g Hg3s rg4s rg3w rf3x Hg2n
33s Re4w he5s Re3w he4s
34g Rh2w Rg2w Rh1n Rh2n ... would probably lead to taking silver horse a hostage, dog for horse exchange or goal race favorizing gold if f6 rabbit would be left die.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by RonWeasley on Mar 15th, 2010, 7:52am
In spite of the lively discussion, all seven voters chose to kill the rabbit.  We are truly a mob.
Title: Re: Move 32
Post by Arimabuff on Mar 15th, 2010, 3:13pm
So my first instinct was right then.  ;)


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