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        Team Games >> 2009 One vs TheMob >> 2015 Move 2
        
(Message started by: deep_blue on Jul 3^rd, 2015, 10:10am)

Title: 2015 Move 2
Post by deep_blue on Jul 3^rd, 2015, 10:10am

We don't have a reply yet but looking at sharp's most recent games against 99of9 it seems to play a winged camel and central horse e.g 1s:

rdrrcrrr/rmchedhr

rdrcrrcr/rmrhedhr

rdrrcrdr/rhchermr

How would our plan against such a winged camel be?

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by half_integer on Jul 5^th, 2015, 6:43pm

My first reaction is to force him to keep that side commitment, typically with E to e5 in our case, while our camel is for the moment free to choose sides. The elephant stays centralized to support attack on either wing as well.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by deep_blue on Jul 10^th, 2015, 10:47am

Okay, lightvector played some sort of browni setup:
rrrdrrrr/rhcedcmh
I would play something like Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hb2n or similar though I am never sure what to play against such setups.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by Samraku on Jul 10^th, 2015, 11:08am

@deep_blue

I found the e-mail notifying of Sharp's move helpful, personally.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by browni3141 on Jul 10^th, 2015, 11:11am

I propose 2g Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hb2n in response to silver's setup. This silver setup leaves the west weak to a horse advance, so we are getting a start on that, along with centralizing our elephant on one of its best squares. I don't see other moves as really having much advantage over this one. For example, 2g Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Md2n prevents elephant forward four which could be played against our move, but
2g Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hb2n
2s ed7s ed6s ed5s ed4s
3g Hb3n Hb4n Hb5n Ee5n
seems to already leave silver at a disadvantage, so that line doesn't matter. Also, after Md2n elephant forward three would try to make our camel commit to one wing, which it may not want to do yet.
2g Hb2n Ee2n Ee3n Hg2n would also be an appealing option, but I feel the g-horse may be advanced prematurely. Our camel may want to land on that square. Putting our elephant forward center is more immediately useful.

We could look at my games as silver here. I have been in this position several times on the other side. My ongoing postal against Boo is an example of what I consider an inaccurate 2g. Just please don't discuss the specifics of that game near the current position.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by deep_blue on Jul 10^th, 2015, 11:25am

on 07/10/15 at 11:11:47, browni3141 wrote:

I propose 2g Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hb2n in response to silver's setup.

Always nice to have browni agreeing with me. :)

Since we have capped reserve i.e. fast moving won't gain any reserve should we also discuss our followups before moving even if there was a clear consensus on the move?

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by chessandgo on Jul 10^th, 2015, 11:49am

I agree with that move, although I wouldn't mind anything reasonable-looking. Our logical midterm plan is to attack in the west with a Horse indeed, but sharp is very good at temporarily threatening captures on c6 with the Elephant while the camel dances up and down the g-file, so we'll need to be precise with our piece advances later on.

And the xs email is very helpful indeed deep, thanks!

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by chessandgo on Jul 10^th, 2015, 11:51am

on 07/05/15 at 18:43:04, half_integer wrote:

My first reaction is to force him to keep that side commitment

I don't think sharp's camel is going to recentralize. If it does, we've gained a lot of time, except in the rare cases when it forces a Horse to move backwards awkwardly.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by harvestsnow on Jul 10^th, 2015, 11:52am

I think there's little question about the first three steps Hb3n Ee2n Ee3n. We want to centralise the Elephant and threaten a Horse advance in the west.

Ee5 with the fourth step puts the E closer to the m, which is good strategically, and somewhat threatens the e8 rabbit.

Advancing the horse twice looks nice too. The threat is Ha6 on the next turn. If Silver advances a8 and a7 to prevent it, we have targets in the west and he needs to attack quickly on the other wing. He certainly doesn't want to bring his camel west.

Suggestion: 2g Ee2n Ee3n Hb2n Hb3n

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by arimaa_master on Jul 10^th, 2015, 12:47pm

Indeed Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hb2n is clearly our best choice here.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by SilverMitt on Jul 10^th, 2015, 3:26pm

I don't think the capped reserve is a reason to wait to play. Can we have a quick poll perhaps on whether to play the move or keep discussing?

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by Algorias on Jul 11^th, 2015, 5:48am

on 07/10/15 at 11:08:36, Samraku wrote:

@deep_blue

I found the e-mail notifying of Sharp's move helpful, personally.

+1

on 07/10/15 at 15:26:33, SilverMitt wrote:

I don't think the capped reserve is a reason to wait to play. Can we have a quick poll perhaps on whether to play the move or keep discussing?

+1. So the Poll would be between the 3 options we have so far (deep_blue's suggestion, harvestsnow's suggestion, keep discussion going)?

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by deep_blue on Jul 11^th, 2015, 6:29am

Lightvector moved only a day ago. I would like to give people at least one more day to read this before starting the vote. I will then start the vote some time tomorrow.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by clyring on Jul 11^th, 2015, 10:53pm

I feel like here, rather than in the move polls, is almost exclusively the correct place for decisions to be made about how long to delay voting. A vote against quick moving needs to be here, in the form 'I want to hear more about X' in order to help us, rather than an anonymous and amorphous vote through CIVS.

The majority voice vote threshold is currently at least 11 (/20), btw.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by clyring on Jul 12^th, 2015, 7:00am

I've thought about the two proposals for a while and personally concluded that the two moves will almost certainly transpose if we quickly attack c6, but that temporarily having our elephant only on the fourth rank is convenient if we need to play any defensive moves in the meantime.

We could also consider taking the idea further by playing 3 horse steps and only one elephant step, but I get an awkward feeling from nnn and we might find a west step unnecessary later while I doubt we will regret elephant north from the third rank.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by supersamu on Jul 13^th, 2015, 11:54am

Elephant forward three times and b-file Horse forward once is a very standard and natural development. I agree that advancing the other horse or the camel is not urgent and might come back to bite us.

Elephant forward twice and b-file Horse forward twice looks unusual. I am not sure what it accomplishes relative to the other suggestion. Harvestsnow said that we threaten to place our horse on a6, but we do so already with the first suggestion. I agree with clyring that the two moves are very likely to transpose. Honestly, I tried writing about which of the first two moves I like more for about 15 minutes, but I couldn't come up with a reason to prefer one over the other.

Elephant forward once and b-file Horse forward three times:
I couldn't find any refutation to that move, but the advancement feels a bit premature to me.
A position like this seems fine to me:
2g Ee2n Hb2n Hb3n Hb4n
2s ed7s ed6s ed5w hb7s
3g Ee3w Ed3n Ed4n Ed5n
3s ec5s Hb5e Hc5e ec4n

But sharp could also play like this:
2g Ee2n Hb2n Hb3n Hb4n
2s ed7s ed6s ed5w mg7s
3g Ee3w Ed3n Ed4n Ed5n
3s mg6s mg5s mg4s xxxx

Seems very messy.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by clyring on Jul 14^th, 2015, 1:51am

on 07/13/15 at 11:54:34, supersamu wrote:

But sharp could also play like this:
2g Ee2n Hb2n Hb3n Hb4n
2s ed7s ed6s ed5w mg7s
3g Ee3w Ed3n Ed4n Ed5n
3s mg6s mg5s mg4s xxxx

Seems very messy.

I'm not entirely convinced silver gets out of this particular line without any tactical trouble (though it is complicated), but I had related ideas in mind in my awkward feeling. Our attack seems premature here and we aren't quickly threatening to gain control around c6, allowing silver to engage in shenanigans in the east. Probably we would be forced to lose a lot of time posturing our camel defensively in the east. It's for this reason as well that I currently like keeping our elephant only on the fourth rank as a deterrent to silver eastern aggression for the next couple of moves, while we see how silver responds to something like 3g Hb4wnn De1n, although we do have to then consider how we respond to 2g Ee2nn Hb2nn 2s hb7s ed7sss as then the aforementioned 3g Hb4wnn De1n might permit 3s hh7ssss, when there are a lot of lines to consider, but in the worst case we can still transpose on 3g in response to almost any particular 2s. (And I don't think moves like 2s ed7sse hb7s are worth worrying about.)

on 07/13/15 at 11:54:34, supersamu wrote:

Elephant forward twice and b-file Horse forward twice looks unusual. I am not sure what it accomplishes relative to the other suggestion. Harvestsnow said that we threaten to place our horse on a6, but we do so already with the first suggestion.

I also don't view access to a6 is much different with two horse steps than with one. It takes one step fewer, so I suppose we could in principle push into an occupied a6 if there is no silver rabbit on a7 after the Hbnn, but I don't expect this line against either move and don't know if I would even want to push into a6 in response.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by clyring on Jul 15^th, 2015, 5:20am

1. 2. 3. 1. Ee2nnn Hb2n -- 12 16 2. Ee2nn Hb2nn 03 -- 12 3. More discussion 02 04 --(Nonbreaking spaces ftw!)

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by deep_blue on Jul 15^th, 2015, 8:32am

on 07/15/15 at 05:20:21, clyring wrote:

1. 2. 3. 1. Ee2nnn Hb2n -- 12 16 2. Ee2nn Hb2nn 03 -- 12 3. More discussion 02 04 --
(Nonbreaking spaces ftw!)

Thanks for giving the details. 18/22 voted. The 22 with right to vote were:
Algorias, arimaa_master, aurelian, browni3141, chessandgo, clyring, CraggyCornmeal, DeathCure, deep_blue, half_integer, Harren, harvestsnow, Hufflepup, ikalyoncu, Knedlik, phairland, RonWeasley, Samraku, SilverMitt, Skarn, supersamu, Therin8.
In other words Therin8 joined while PerkofBR takes a break.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 2
Post by chessandgo on Jul 16^th, 2015, 3:30am

I've experimented over the years with attacking as early as possible in all kinds of openings. In the end though, against good play you have to take time to develop pieces and shore up home traps soon enough. Attacking too early is not the right thing to do in my experience (unfortunately), so any reasonable development step is fairly equivalent in moves 2 and 3 imo.