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        Team Games >> 2009 One vs TheMob >> 2015 Move 6
        
(Message started by: ikalyoncu on Sep 15^th, 2015, 9:10am)

Title: 2015 Move 6
Post by ikalyoncu on Sep 15^th, 2015, 9:10am

5s has been finally played

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/notconv/old/boardimg.php?orient=n&size=300&imgtype=jpeg&ranks=r1r1rr/rrc2cr/Hh1dd2r/4E1m/3e3h/1M4HR/R1CDDC1R/RRR2RR

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by deep_blue on Sep 15^th, 2015, 12:26pm

Before I forget it, this is the list of moves that are so far considered interesting enough to be included in the vote (will be modified while the discussion):

Mb3n Ra2n Ra3n Ra4n
Ee5e mg5e Ef5e Rb1n
Ee5e mg5e Ef5e Ra2n
Ee5e mg5e Ef5e De2n
Ee5e mg5s Ef5e Ra2n
Ee5e Ra2n Ra3n Ra1n
Ee5e Ra2n Ra3n Rb1n
Ee5e Ra2n Ra3n De2n
Ee5e Ra2n Ra3n Rg1n
Ee5e Ra2n Ra3n Ra4n

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by Hufflepup on Sep 15^th, 2015, 5:47pm

What about Mb3n Ra2n Ra3n Ra4n? The camel threatens a pull and replace on the horse, whilst the advanced rabbit makes it difficult for the silver elephant to threaten our camel.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by clyring on Sep 15^th, 2015, 8:02pm

I don't have time to look carefully soon, but it occurs to me that the silver camel and rabbit look very uncoordinated if we push the former to h5. Thought I'd throw that out there.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by ikalyoncu on Sep 16^th, 2015, 1:00pm

I like clyring's idea. It seems that silver would be forced to protect f3 with its elephant quite soon, after which our attack in the west would be much stronger. The fourth step could be either Ra2n or De2n.

About Hufflepup's suggestion, even though the steps are in accordance with our plan of attacking northwest in general, I feel timing is a bit off. After something like 6s ed4w mg5n hh4n Rh3n, silver seems OK to me. I am not sure if this is silver's best reply or sharp would play in this fashion, though.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by SilverMitt on Sep 16^th, 2015, 7:19pm

Pinning the camel to the edge is interesting. I'm not sure that the silver elephant would have to defend f3, though. It might be able to make counterthreats in the west.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by browni3141 on Sep 16^th, 2015, 8:55pm

I like aspects of all moves suggested so far. Another that should be evaluated is pushing the camel south.

A sequence like
6g Ra2n Ra3n Ra4n Mb3n
6s hh4n Rh3n mg5n ed4w
does not worry me. This is exactly the type of position we were looking for when we played Rh2n Rh1n, right? We are giving up an easy rabbit pull and likely eventually a rabbit for the sake of attack.

Against the mh5 a2n idea, d4www b3n is an annoyance. We would have to save the camel and silver would have some options to continue such as attempting a horse trade which we need to evaluate.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by Hufflepup on Sep 17^th, 2015, 3:21am

Pusihing the m east shuts down silvers immediate attack, but I can't see it forcing silver to defend f3 any time soon. If anything pushing the m east makes it more difficult to threaten a capture in f3. With browni3141 proposed response by silver d4www b3n we would need to spend the next couple of turns at least defending against silvers threats to the camel, whilst being unable to create any counter threats of our own. Our elephant may well be forced to move w in order to protect the M in which case pushing the m east has just wasted a move.

Pushing the m south with Ee5e mg5s Ef5e Ra2n would allow silver to reply with Hg3s mg4s ed4e ee4e. Silver now has a good attack on the f3 trap, and it is difficult to see how we could take a good hostage in that position.

If silver played ed4w mg5n hh4n Rh3n in response to Mb3n Ra2n Ra3n Ra4n we could reply with Dd2n Dd3n Ee5e Ef5e. Our threats to the silver camel now look significantly stronger than golds threats to ours.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by ikalyoncu on Sep 17^th, 2015, 8:49am

After 6g Ee5e mg5s Ef5e Ra2n 6s Hg3s mg4s ed43 ee4e, I think we can get good hostage prospects at g2 with 7g Eg5s De2n Cf2w Hg2w. So I don't think diving into g3 with the camel is silver's best option at 6s.

After 6g mh5 Ra3, 6s d4www b3n spotted by browni seems really awkward and I don't like that 6g anymore.

I liked Dd2n Dd3n steps by Hufflepup, which enables a safe retreat for our camel. So, 6g Ra5 Mb4 seems much better to me. But we should also prepare something against 6s mg5s mg4n Hg3n ed4w.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Sep 17^th, 2015, 10:44am

After
6g Mb3n Ra2n Ra3n Ra4n
6s ed4w mg5n hh4n Rh3n
we might be able to ignore silver's threat:
7g Ee5e de6s de5s Ef5w
In any case we should be fine, the rh6 in particular prevents silver's perfect flip to g5.

Clyring's idea is interesting. To achieve anything from there, we would have to play Eg5sn hh4w Rh3n (assuming silver's elephant can't do any damage in the west), with the hope to force silver's elephant to cover f3, and then place our Elephant on g4 if silver's camel pushes to h4 to make progress towards f3. Something like:
6g Ee5e mg5e Ef5e Rb1n
6s re8s
7g Eg5s Eg4n hh4w Rh3n
7s ed4e ee4s Rh4s mh5s
8g hg4w Eg5s Rg1n Mb3n

For browni's answer, we're looking at:
6g Ee5e mg5e Ef5e Ra2n
6s ed4w ec4w eb4w Mb3n
7g Rb1n Rb2n Mb4e Mc4s
7s ea4e eb4e ec4w Mc3n
8g Dd2n Dd3w Mc4e Md4s
8s hb6s hb5w eb4n eb5n
and seriously not liking the horse trade? How about 9g Ec5? We could also prepare for 6s with:

6g Ee5e mg5e Ef5e Rb1n
6s ed4w ec4w eb4w Mb3n
7g Rb2n Mb4e Mc4s Mc3e
7s hb6s hb5s ea4n hb4w
We're still not liking the horse trade (?) but Ec5 is still an option?

It seems to me that 6g pushing the camel south might lose 4 steps, two for us playing a camel south step that sharp will play anyway, and 2 for the east-west Elephant dance when we have to move back to f4 to defend f3. In a similar vein I think I'd rather play something like 6g Ee5e Ra2nn (Rg1n/Rb1n/Ra4n). If sharp commits to f3, we have our b-file attack ready. If sharp flips the Rh3 to g4 on 6s we can flip the camel to f4?

Overall, I'd say we're still in a position where both sides are flexible and not wanting to over-commit. If we still think our Ha6 is an advantage over sharp's hh4, then a slow move like Ee5e x x x makes sense.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Sep 17^th, 2015, 10:58am

on 09/17/15 at 08:49:32, ikalyoncu wrote:

silver's elephant would go to e3, not f4 on 6s.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by SilverMitt on Sep 17^th, 2015, 4:38pm

I like the Ef5 step generally. I can also see the reasoning behind advancing the a2 rabbit to a4, but not a5, on this move. For the 4th step, though, I might prefer advancing the a1 rabbit over b1 or g1.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by Heyckie on Sep 18^th, 2015, 12:56pm

I'm not even registered to vote in this, but I've been following the game and would like to ask how about De2n as a fourth step? Say 6g Ee5e Ra2n Ra3n De2n? (or 6g Ee5e mg5e Ef5e De2n). Maybe it's bad; if so I'd like to know why.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by Hufflepup on Sep 18^th, 2015, 2:15pm

Quote:

I liked Dd2n Dd3n steps by Hufflepup, which enables a safe retreat for our camel. So, 6g Ra5 Mb4 seems much better to me. But we should also prepare something against 6s mg5s mg4n Hg3n ed4w.

Something like Dd2n Dd3n Ee5e Ra1n looks like it would stop this attack.

An alternative countermove by silver would be:
6s: ed4e ec4e Mb4n X.

After this is we run away with the camel silver is going to gain several steps on us. If we played

7g: Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Dd2n

silver can recover control of b6 fairly easily, so I'm not sure if we would accomplish anything.

I'm thinking a slower developing move like Ra2n Ra3n Ra1n Ee5e might be better.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by ikalyoncu on Sep 18^th, 2015, 2:16pm

on 09/17/15 at 10:44:06, chessandgo wrote:

It seems to me that 6g pushing the camel south might lose 4 steps, two for us playing a camel south step that sharp will play anyway, and 2 for the east-west Elephant dance when we have to move back to f4 to defend f3. In a similar vein I think I'd rather play something like 6g Ee5e Ra2nn (Rg1n/Rb1n/Ra4n). If sharp commits to f3, we have our b-file attack ready. If sharp flips the Rh3 to g4 on 6s we can flip the camel to f4?

I want to point out that after 7s ed4e Rg4n mf4e hh4s, silver horse reaches h3. Given that a couple of moves ago we considered placing our horse on a6 and preventing silver horse to h3 a slight advantage to us, flipping the camel to f4 doesn't help us in this variation.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Sep 18^th, 2015, 3:25pm

on 09/18/15 at 12:56:05, Heyckie wrote:

With our Dog on e3, we'd have to be wary of things like 6g Ee5e mg5e Ef5e De2n 6s ed4s De3n ed3e. It might not be worrying now because we can pull the hb6 right away (?), but could definitely hamper us in the future.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Sep 18^th, 2015, 3:29pm

on 09/18/15 at 14:16:36, ikalyoncu wrote:

I think we're very happy after 6g Ee5e Ra2n Ra3n Rb1n
6s hh4n Rh3n Rh4w hh5s
7g Ef5w mg5w mf5s Ee5e
7s ed4e Rg4n mf4e hh4s
8g Ef5s Mb3n Ra4n Mb4n
Besides, having our Rabbit on h5 compared to h2 when silver attacks f3 should be a big boost for us.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Sep 18^th, 2015, 3:33pm

on 09/18/15 at 14:15:03, Hufflepup wrote:

Something like Dd2n Dd3n Ee5e Ra1n looks like it would stop this attack.

6g Ra2n Ra3n Ra4n Mb3n
6s mg5s mg4n Hg3n ed4w
7g De2n De3n Ee5e Ra1n
7s Mb4n ec4w dd6s de6s

looks bad for us. We could just play something like 7g Rb1n Rb2n Mb4w Ee5e though.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Sep 18^th, 2015, 3:37pm

on 09/18/15 at 14:15:03, Hufflepup wrote:

An alternative countermove by silver would be:
6s: ed4e ec4e Mb4n X.

After this is we run away with the camel silver is going to gain several steps on us. If we played

7g: Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Dd2n

silver can recover control of b6 fairly easily, so I'm not sure if we would accomplish anything.

7g Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Ee5w looks strong. Even 6g Ra2n Ra3n Ra4n Mb3n
6s ed4w Mb4n ec4w 7g Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Dd2n 7s eb4e Mc5e ec4n 8g de6e Ee5n dd6w Ee6w does not relinquish b6.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by Hufflepup on Sep 18^th, 2015, 5:47pm

Quote:

7g Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Ee5w looks strong. Even 6g Ra2n Ra3n Ra4n Mb3n
6s ed4w Mb4n ec4w 7g Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Dd2n 7s eb4e Mc5e ec4n 8g de6e Ee5n dd6w Ee6w does not relinquish b6.

This would allow us to hold b6, but if silver played ec5e Md5e ed5e Me5e our camel would be in a pretty bad situation.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by half_integer on Sep 19^th, 2015, 8:22pm

on 09/17/15 at 16:38:09, SilverMitt wrote:

Like SilverMitt, I like the single E->f5 step as it limits silver's play somewhat. I also see the value in advancing the a file rabbit, but I worry about it being flipped to the center later if it advances too far. So, I like Ee5e Ra2nn as the first three steps.

For the fourth step I am undecided. Mn is still a possibility, as is a1n to be closer in case western pieces need to be unfrozen. b1n was also mentioned. I am also still willing to try De2n; I'm not that worried about the silver e pushing it forward, as the camel and both horses are not able to immediately threaten it. Having it adjacent to f3 overprotecting the trap could help if the horse needs to be rotated to f2 later. However, things are different if our E moves to g3 to take a hostage, then the silver e has freedom to threaten the Dog while protecting f3.

So I think we should consider the Dog step but evaluate the likelihood of the position allowing the camel or horse access to it in the center, and the likelihood that our E gets tied down off-center with a hostage.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by arimaa_master on Sep 19^th, 2015, 9:51pm

My top 3 moves so far:

1) Ee5e Ra2n Ra3n Ra1n
2) Ee5e Ra2n Ra3n Rb1n
3) Ee5e Ra2n Ra3n De2n

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by deep_blue on Sep 20^th, 2015, 3:19pm

on 09/18/15 at 17:47:15, Hufflepup wrote:

This would allow us to hold b6, but if silver played ec5e Md5e ed5e Me5e our camel would be in a pretty bad situation.

Whats wrong with just capturing a silver dog, likely the f6 one? A dog is a dog afterall.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Sep 20^th, 2015, 4:57pm

on 09/19/15 at 20:22:52, half_integer wrote:

So I think we should consider the Dog step but evaluate the likelihood of the position allowing the camel or horse access to it in the center, and the likelihood that our E gets tied down off-center with a hostage.

It's very difficult to actually force our Elephant to move to g3, we can always station it on f4 and ignore possible hostages. With how quick our b6 counterattack is, we probably don't need a hostage. I expect sharp to remain flexible and not commit to f3 too soon.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by half_integer on Sep 20^th, 2015, 6:15pm

Trying to decide among moves based on replies we want to be able to respond to, I am looking at something like 6s h6s mg5sn Hg3n in response to one of the 6g Ee a2nn moves. What would be the best response to this? Retreat the horse using h3w (or g1nn)? 3-for-3 retreat using the E? Or Esw mws?

I also wonder if silver might just continue to advance from the back ranks with something like c7s c8s e8s x or c7s c8s h4n Rh3n which would slow down our b6 attack.

I'm not skilled enough to determine the desirability of these positions or the best way to discourage those we don't want, so I hope the rest of you will express an opinion.

Also, I know the choices in the poll are up, but just for argument's sake, is there any value in the fourth step being a dog pull, i.e. Ra2n Ra3n Ee5e de6s ? Does this force silver to use steps responding or does it help him develop in a way he already wants?

Other things: Deep, I suggested starting the poll on the weekend assuming most discussion would happen then, and also to keep our reserve situation strong. lightvector used a bunch of reserve last move and that makes me wonder if we can apply a little time pressure to him later.

I also looked at the piece development. We have taken three sideways steps so far, and are considering 1-3 more this move. Sharpvector has not taken any yet - maybe an indication that we should expect continued moves which only advance pieces, such as the second type of possibility I raised above. Are we concerned about having less board space and being forced into a more home game if silver develops more rapidly?

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by half_integer on Sep 20^th, 2015, 6:19pm

Deep, I also do not see Ee5e Ra2n Ra3n Mb3n as a choice in the poll? Is this combination already refuted, or was it simply not discussed among the multitudes of possibilities?

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by Heyckie on Sep 20^th, 2015, 7:40pm

6g: Ee5e mg5s Ef5e Ra2n must be inferior to 6g: Ee5e mg5s Ef5e De2n. I guess that what browni had in mind when he suggested pushing the camel south.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by clyring on Sep 20^th, 2015, 8:29pm

on 09/16/15 at 19:19:01, SilverMitt wrote:

Pinning the camel to the edge is interesting. I'm not sure that the silver elephant would have to defend f3, though. It might be able to make counterthreats in the west.

My gut feeling at time of first post was that a counterthreat on our horse would be awkward, but using our camel as an intermediate threat indeed makes things harder to evaluate. Still, silver can't threaten our horse here without misplacing his hb6 and decentralizing his elephant. I'll have to think more on these lines later.

on 09/16/15 at 20:55:01, browni3141 wrote:

I like aspects of all moves suggested so far. Another that should be evaluated is pushing the camel south.

Pushing the silver camel south does almost guarantee silver's elephant leaves our western pieces to their own devices, but at the cost of making an eastern silver attack much more viable. Moreover, as has been noted in discussion for previous moves, we don't have a very comfortable way of dealing with a camel intrusion- Rg1n guarantees our horse activity, but gives up on securing a hostage in the traditional style. Still, the feeling is awkward for silver. With fourth steps of Rg1n or De2n this is probably playable.

on 09/16/15 at 20:55:01, browni3141 wrote:

A sequence like
6g Ra2n Ra3n Ra4n Mb3n
6s hh4n Rh3n mg5n ed4w
does not worry me. This is exactly the type of position we were looking for when we played Rh2n Rh1n, right? We are giving up an easy rabbit pull and likely eventually a rabbit for the sake of attack.

Hmm. I want to disagree with this last line, but it isn't so easy. The general remark is that the advanced rabbit limits the short-term damage silver can do in the east, which makes our play elsewhere on the board easier, but I'm not sure this can be used to argue in favor of a particular attack timing yet. In any case, mg5n is inconsistent with mg6s and I don't expect to see it soon unless tactically necessary. (Kudos to Hufflepup for the cute 9g Dd2nn Ee5ee here. There seem to be a lot of complications after 9s Dd4n ec4e Rh4w hh5s, but I think we should come out on top.)

Regarding the discussion about 6g Ra2n Ra3n Ra4n Mb3n, do we mind lines like 6s ed4w Mb4n ec4w re8s 7g Mb5e hb6s Ha6e * 7s eb4e Mc5n ec4n re7w? It seems to me it might be a little difficult to efficiently employ our camel from the resulting position.

on 09/20/15 at 16:57:14, chessandgo wrote:

This bears repeating.

on 09/20/15 at 18:15:04, half_integer wrote:

Also, I know the choices in the poll are up, but just for argument's sake, is there any value in the fourth step being a dog pull, i.e. Ra2n Ra3n Ee5e de6s ? Does this force silver to use steps responding or does it help him develop in a way he already wants?

Best case, this makes it a little bit tactically harder for the silver elephant to leave the center, but the dog's presence makes any silver central/eastern aggression more potent. In this way it is similar to the camel push south, only without as much venom due to the smaller threat.

on 09/20/15 at 19:40:38, Heyckie wrote:

6g: Ee5e mg5s Ef5e Ra2n must be inferior to 6g: Ee5e mg5s Ef5e De2n. I guess that what browni had in mind when he suggested pushing the camel south.

Yes, pushing the camel south almost implies either Rg1n or De2n as the fourth step. Hmm, actually giving another look at 6g Ee5ee mg5s De2n, it is better than I remember thinking of it earlier. I revert to browni's statement: We need to evaluate carefully.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by chessandgo on Sep 21^st, 2015, 1:30pm

The vote might have arrived too soon. I had no idea how to rank all these moves, there's none that I ike or dislike significantly more than any other. Maybe they're all actually very close and it's no big deal.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by deep_blue on Oct 10^th, 2015, 5:51am

Detailed vote report:
Allowed voters: 25
Actual votes cast: 12
Link to poll result: http://civs.cs.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/results.pl?id=E_41515fc3bdaa6411

1. 6g Ee5e Ra2n Ra3n Ra1n (Ef5 a1-a4)
2. 6g Ee5e Ra2n Ra3n Rb1n (Ef5 a2-a4 Rb2)
tied 3. 6g Ee5e Ra2n Ra3n Rg1n (Ef5 a2-a4 Rg2)
tied 3. 6g Ee5e Ra2n Ra3n Ra4n (Ef5 a2-a5)
5. 6g Ee5e Ra2n Ra3n De2n (Ef5 a2-a4 De3)
6. 6g Mb3n Ra2n Ra3n Ra4n (Mb4 a2-a5)
7. 6g Ee5e mg5e Ef5e Ra2n (E:mh5 Ra3)
8. 6g Ee5e mg5e Ef5e De2n (E:mh5 De3)
9. 6g Ee5e mg5e Ef5e Rb1n (E:mh5 Rb2)
10. 6g Ee5e mg5s Ef5e Ra2n (E:mh5 Ra3)

	1.	2.	3.	4.	5.	6.	7.	8.	9.	10.
1.	-	5	6	7	8	8	10	10	11	10
2.	3	-	5	6	8	9	9	9	10	10
3.	3	3	-	4	8	6	9	9	8	8
4.	2	4	4	-	6	5	9	10	9	10
5.	3	4	4	5	-	7	8	10	9	9
6.	2	2	4	4	4	-	8	9	8	9
7.	2	3	2	2	3	3	-	6	3	7
8.	1	2	2	1	2	3	1	-	4	7
9.	1	2	4	3	3	4	3	3	-	8
10.	2	2	3	1	2	2	1	3	1	-

Voting rights had:
Algorias, arimaa_master, aurelian, browni3141, chessandgo, clyring, CraggyCornmeal, DeathCure, deep_blue, half_integer, Harren, harvestsnow, Hippo, Hufflepup, ikalyoncu, Knedlik, PerkofBR, phairland, RonWeasley, Samraku, SilverMitt, Skarn, supersamu, Therin8, Hippo, Heyckie.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by Hippo on Oct 17^th, 2015, 3:50am

I voted only once ...

Title: Re: 2015 Move 6
Post by half_integer on Oct 17^th, 2015, 6:21pm

I guess you don't live in Chicago then ...