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Title: 2015 Move 9g Post by deep_blue on Nov 1st, 2015, 3:50pm Sharp has moved: http://arimaa.com/arimaa/notconv/old/boardimg.php?orient=n&size=300&imgtype=png&ranks=r1r1rr/rrc2c/Hh1dd1rr/R4EmR/1M2e1H/6Rh/R1CDDC/1RR2RR |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by half_integer on Nov 1st, 2015, 8:43pm At first glance, the western pull-and-replace 9g Mb4n Mb5s hb6s Ha6e doesn't look promising with a response like 9s ee4w ed4w ec4n Mb4e however we might play tactically for a camel exchange: 10g Ef5w mg5w mf5s Ee5e I don't think sharpvector would go for it immediately, probably responding something like 10s Rg3s hh3w rc8w re8w but, what is the true tactical outcome of such a line? I haven't looked deeply enough yet. An alternate 9s is 9s ee4w ed4w Rh5s mg5e what do we do in this case? Pulling the b7 rabbit leaves our horse almost trapped. Bringing the elephant to c6: 10g Ef5w Ee5w dd6n Ed5n has some interesting possibilities around c6, but I expect that silver can make too strong threats in the east such as 10s mh5w Hg4w mg5s ec4n As a longer term concern, if we can play for a camel trade, should we? I thought the commentary during the challenge was that sharp seemed to be less strong after a trade, that it didn't seem to know as well how to use its pieces when the counts had changed. My first instinctive move is 9g Hg4e mg5s Ef5e X but I'm not sure how it plays out. I expect the g3 rabbit would be pushed onto the trap to prevent an immediate capture, and silver does have a good number of pieces available to turn it into an attack on f3. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by Hufflepup on Nov 2nd, 2015, 2:46am 9g: Rg3w Rf3n Hg4s Rf4e would allow us to hold g3 for now, but with 9s: Rg4w mg5s I suspect the rabbit will just become a liability. Flipping the camel to g6 would slow down the attack on f3, but would allow something like 9s: ee4w ed4w Mb4n ec4w after which we would no longer be in a position to make threats in the east to counter silvers in the west. Alternatively it would give silver the option of sending the camel east lto take the a6 horse hostage. Quote:
I agree this looks bad. 10s could be something like: Rg3e hh3e ra7s ra8s. If silver toook the horse on 10s instead it looks like silver would actually gain the horse. As we don't appear to have an obkvious way of stopping the attack in the east I think we are going to need to make some counter move in the west though. What about pulling the horse to the south instead with 9g: Mb4n Mb5s hb6s X ? |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by Hippo on Nov 2nd, 2015, 1:24pm on 11/02/15 at 02:46:16, Hufflepup wrote:
I rather like 9g Rg4 Hg3. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by Hufflepup on Nov 3rd, 2015, 1:39am Quote:
Whilst this would hold g3 for now it would still allow silver to take f2 with hh3s hh2w Cf3n hg2w. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by ikalyoncu on Nov 3rd, 2015, 9:05am Couple of moves ago we considered occupying a6 with a Horse while denying a hh3 a slight advantage for us. Now that this advantage is nullified, we should harvest the other positional advantages we acquired in the meantime. We still have the better piece alignment and we have advanced rabbits on both sides. There doesn't seem to be a good way of denying both g3 and f2 to the silver horse. Pulling the silver horse south with 9g Mb4n Mb5s hb6s xxx looks like the best option to me, and the last step should be something other than Ha6e (I don't like the position after 9s ee4wwn Mb4e). I think it's extremely difficult to foresee what fourth step would be most useful to us. De2n could gain us some tempo for the fight around f3. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by Hippo on Nov 3rd, 2015, 12:14pm on 11/03/15 at 01:39:00, Hufflepup wrote:
horse f2 seems to be smaller problem than frozen Horse on g4. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by SilverMitt on Nov 4th, 2015, 5:34pm Our advanced rabbits aren't immediately under threat of capture and so should be a net positive for now, but the silver elephant is able to keep our M+H attack from starting while supporting the east and the h3 horse can now make progress on its own, while our a6 horse still needs the camel to do anything. Pulling the b6 horse without the Hb6 step is an interesting idea to keep the elephant from coming over, although it may be playing into silver's hands in terms of allowing development. Pushing the silver camel into g4 seems better if we don't allow the silver horse into f2, so perhaps 9g Hh4 E:Mg4 g2 is worth considering. Mb5 may be another 4th step to consider. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by Algorias on Nov 5th, 2015, 4:37am What about just taking a single step with our camel? Could be combined with the camel push in the east 9g: Mb4n Hg4e mg5s Ef5e. I don't think the lone silver elephant can threaten that configuration around C6, at least not in the short term: 9s: Rg3w hh3w ee4w ed4w 10g: Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Rf3w (or variations thereof) If silver does nothing to stop us in the east, we would be threatening a double pull of the horse. If the elephant does switch wings, we might have a tempo advantage in a MH / mh trade. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by ikalyoncu on Nov 5th, 2015, 10:44am If we will go for 9g Hg4e mg5s Ef5e Rg1n, then we should prepare something for 9s ee4e de6s de5s de4s. The dog advance seems premature but it is still irritating. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by SilverMitt on Nov 5th, 2015, 2:35pm On that note, I'm not sure why we should play Hh4. It just seems to put our horse out of play. Perhaps 9g Hf3 E:Mg4 is another option, as it also keeps the silver horse out of f2 for the time being. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by half_integer on Nov 5th, 2015, 5:55pm I was coming to say the same thing, SilverMitt. Hf4 E:Mg4 g2 does not have an immediate weakness; the horse cannot be captured without silver suffering a greater loss, and for some responses there is the chance of the horse escaping to join the western attack. H:Rf3 M:Hf5 is probably the most annoying response but we can avoid immediate loss by making counterthreats, and it may result in our advancing the horse. If that move proves unsatisfactory, Hf3 E:Mg4 is another possibility which keeps the silver horse out of f2. I'm not sure which of the responses would be best for silver. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by Hufflepup on Nov 6th, 2015, 2:32pm My concern with moves like Hf4 E:Mg4 g2, is that whilst they slow Sharp down, and don't immediately lead to any major problems they don't seem to accomplish anything for us either, allowing Sharp to gradually build up a big advantage. Playing Mb4n Mb5s hb6s without the Ha6e step allows defences like 9s: rb6s hb5e hc5n X which defeats the point of the horse pull. 9g: Mb4n Mb5s hb6s Ha6e looks good to me: Some possible lines: 9s: hh3s hh2w Cf2n hg2w 10g: Cf3w Mb4s hb5s X gives us good capture threats in both home traps. 9s: ee4w ed4w Rg2w hh3w 10g: Rf3w Dd2n Dd3n Hb6w Leaves us with the best threats 9s: ee4w ed4w ec4n Mb4e 10g: Hb6w Dd2n Dd3n Mc4w is more complicated but looks OK for us. 11s: ec5n ec6w hb5e hc5e 11g: Hg4e mg5s Ef5e Mb4s |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by ikalyoncu on Nov 6th, 2015, 10:35pm on 11/06/15 at 14:32:24, Hufflepup wrote:
I disagree that the point of our horse pull is defeated. Our Horse gets access to b6 square. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by ikalyoncu on Nov 6th, 2015, 10:46pm on 11/06/15 at 14:32:24, Hufflepup wrote:
If silver goes 10s hb5n ec5s Dd4n ec4e, we don't achieve anything over our current position. On the contrary, we have a threatened dog and a weakened trap. This variation doesn't seem OK to me. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by Hufflepup on Nov 7th, 2015, 3:35am Quote:
We could reply to this with 11g: Hg4w Hf4w mg5s Ef5e 11s: hh3w Rg3w mg4w de5s 12g: Rf3w Eg5w Re3w De2n 12s silver elephant captures dog. 13g: mf4e Ef5s mg4e Ef4e Silver now can't stop us capturing at least a horse on 14g. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by ikalyoncu on Nov 7th, 2015, 5:03am on 11/07/15 at 03:35:12, Hufflepup wrote:
These lines need to be checked carefully. To me, it's still not clear after 13s ec5s ec4e Mb4e xxx. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by half_integer on Nov 7th, 2015, 7:30am It seems to me that allowing the silver horse to get f2 is bad for us in the long run. Our camel is easily blocked from crossing leaving us to deal with a horse using the elephant; if we leave it alone it will be thorn in our side for a long time. Even Hufflepup's line exposing an f2 horse to capture while threatening another capture in c3 just allows the horse to move to g2, where the best we could do is a horse hostaged by a buried elephant, which is a worse than useless outcome. (10g Mb4s hb5s Cf3w Rg1n might be an exception - after 10s Rg2e hf2e Ee4ww 11g horse b4 flip to b2, but I don't like the resulting hostage position, especially after 11s ec4ws Mb3e X) So, what are the ways to prevent the h3 horse from getting to f2 this turn? - occupy g2 - occupy h2 - occupy f3 so the f2 piece cannot be pushed - make a threat elsewhere that must be answered - noting that with the current setup around f3, h->f2 can capture a cat if not answered If we accept that we don't want the horse at f2, then for some of these possibilities we'll need to take additional steps to respond on the next move as well if silver makes progress such as h->g3 . It seems like we have some choices to make: keep the trap open to make threats, or congest the trap and eventually the whole northeast. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by Hufflepup on Nov 8th, 2015, 9:00am Quote:
A horse at f2 will be prolematic, however if we try and stop it with any kind of blockade then it will be very difficult to make any kind of threats there, allowing the silver elephant to shut down our attack in the west. In time the silver M + H + other small pieces would probably be able to force our elephant to commit to f3 leaving the silver elephant free to attack us in the east. To stop this I think we need to get some kind of counter play in the east before silvers grip arounf f3 becomes too strong. The long term situation afer 9g: Mb4n Mb5s hb6s Ha6e, 9s: ee4w ed4w ec4n Mb4e looks very complicated and I am not convinced Sharp can't get a significant advantage out of it. Perhaps our best move would be to occupy f2 with the horse 9g: Hg4w Hf4s cf2e Hf3s. This secures f2 for the forseeable future and our elephant should have an easier time making threats in the east from this position. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by deep_blue on Nov 9th, 2015, 11:53am So far moves in the poll: 1. 9g Mb4n Mb5s hb6s Ha6e 2. 9g Rg3w Rf3n Hg4s Rf4e 3. 9g Mb4n Mb5s hb6s De2n 4. 9g Hh4 E:Mg4 g2 5. 9g Hh4 E:Mg4 Mb5 6. 9g Hf3 E:Mg4 7. 9g: Hg4w Hf4s Cf2e(?) Hf3s |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by Hippo on Nov 10th, 2015, 8:32am Hmm, I have hoped some c&g or browni would shere their ideas, especially on this move. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by half_integer on Nov 10th, 2015, 2:42pm on 11/09/15 at 11:53:24, deep_blue wrote:
For moves two and seven, how could we respond to hh3nw Rg4w or Rg3nw Hh3wn respectively? Silver's putting the rabbit on f4 leaves no retreat and no ability to push the silver horse or camel. These look bad for us; the only response that comes quickly to mind would be to swarm the east. I don't see an easy way to prevent the silver e putting the rabbit on e5 on the next move either. Doing so with e->d5 would both threaten a rabbit frame or loss and allow the elephant to move towards c6. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by half_integer on Nov 10th, 2015, 2:56pm on 11/09/15 at 11:53:24, deep_blue wrote:
Deep, I thought that following post #10 the idea of moving the horse east lost favor and sentiment went towards western moves. There is a h->f3 move in the poll, but no h->f4 move. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by deep_blue on Nov 10th, 2015, 5:13pm Add to poll: Hg4w mg5s Ef5e Rg1n (Hf4 E:mg4 g2) Hg4w mg5s Ef5e Mb4n (Hf4 E:mg4 Mb5) alternative 4th steps? |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by deep_blue on Nov 10th, 2015, 5:33pm Restarted the poll with those two moves added. What do you think about the Mb4n 4th step? I added it on my own (plus algorias who also suggested it). What are the disadvantages vs. Rg1n and do they outweight the advantage of a possibly faster counter attack? |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by Algorias on Nov 10th, 2015, 5:40pm I briefly mentioned the Mb4n step in my post #8 (the idea was to add it as a 4th step to whathever maneuvering we do around F3). The general idea is that it should be a relatively safe attack. The lone silver elephant can't really hurt the camel backed up by a horse in any reasonable timeframe (mutual protection), and we get the threat of a horse flip or other very offensive move whenever the situation shifts in the east. That said, I haven't really worked through the tactics of that line in any detail. It's just a hunch. There might be glaring strategic weaknesses, but since noone commented, I assume there were no objections. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by deep_blue on Nov 10th, 2015, 5:40pm My own opinion on this: Like Hufflepup already mentioned we need to get some play otherwise we get squeezed. In the last moves I fear we lost some momentum so I would seriously consider Mb4n to get some play (unless there's a tactical refutation of course). One critical response might be hf2 but I think then our western attack might be strong while we can somehow hold on in the east. Simply mg4e Eg5s Cf3w Hf4s might be fine with the constant western threat. But then, I am not sure about the position, other input would be nice. Alternatively something like 9s Hf4n ee4e Rg3s mg4s looks natural but I think is fine for us with De2n Hf5w plus 2 western steps like Mb5s hb6s or Mb5e hb6s or similar. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by half_integer on Nov 10th, 2015, 8:44pm I am a bit worried about the western situation if the silver elephant crosses while we can't make an immediate threat in f3. For instance: 9g Hg4w mg5s Ef5e Rg1n 9s ee4www Mb4n we're left unable to create a threat in the east with less than two steps; defending c6 and c3 takes all four: 10g Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Rb1n (or Dd2n) 10s Ra5n hb5w ra8e eb4n and I'm worried. The camel can be forced away from c6 and the horse is in danger. Can the horse survive long by going through the trap to c7 or d6? Is there a better 10g? And as I said in a post above, I'm also worried by any move that allows the g3 rabbit to be pushed to f4 with flanking silver pieces. In short, I think we need to be cautious about allowing f3 to get clogged lest we find ourselves with a slower attack than what silver can pull off by switching to the west. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by Algorias on Nov 11th, 2015, 2:20am on 11/10/15 at 20:44:04, half_integer wrote:
I think that's the right 10g, and after 11g: Rg3w Rf3w mg4s Eg5s We are in a pretty good position. This tactic doesn't work out with the Mb4n step, however, so 9g: Hg4w mg5s ef5e Mb4n is a terrible idea, while 9g: Hg4e mg5s ef5e Mb4n is looking more decent. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by Hufflepup on Nov 11th, 2015, 1:29pm For 9g: Mb4n Mb5s hb6s ha6e 9s: ee4w ed4w ec4n Mb4e 10g: Dd2n Dd3n Mc4w Hb6w Quote:
An alternative 10g which wouldn't put the dog in such a vulnerable position would be cc2n Rc2nMc4w Hb6w. I can't see silver making any strong threats to the camel or dog after this move. If he went after the horse we can more than make up for it with threats around f3. Quote:
9s: Rg3w hh3w Hf4n mg4w 10g: Rf3w Hf5w Eg5w He5w Leaves us in a very weak position around f3, wothout any compensation in the west. Replacing the Rg1n step with Mb4n makes the situation worse as it would allow the silver camel to push into f2 on 10s. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by half_integer on Nov 11th, 2015, 2:51pm on 11/11/15 at 13:29:55, Hufflepup wrote:
I think there are better 10g's than this. Rf3w Eg5sw mf4s for instance. This is not my favored 9g, but not because of this response. I'm unhappy with ee4www Mb4n as we don't have free steps to make an immediate threat while saving the camel. Perhaps there is a way to make a trade come out in our favor but we'd be steps behind and I think silver can opt out of the trade while maintaining threats. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by half_integer on Nov 11th, 2015, 6:26pm In the end, I decided that the only move I'm truly happy with is putting the horse on the f3 trap. Most of the other moves allow silver to prevent us from making threats until 11g, and it seems like silver could put us on the defensive in the west in that time. Perhaps some of you can see the tactics in the west better than I can, but I'm not at all confident about our chances there with M+H vs. E+H+small army. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by SilverMitt on Nov 12th, 2015, 3:38pm I'm not really a fan of pondering for this game, but an interesting move in reply to 9g Hf3 E:Mg4 might be 9s Ef4 Mh4:R Hg3. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by deep_blue on Nov 12th, 2015, 5:22pm What if we played 10g Hf3w Mb4n Mb5s hb6s (He3 hb5) then? I don't see any immediate E blockade or any other severe consequences and then I do like our position. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by browni3141 on Nov 13th, 2015, 12:52am I think playing 9g Hg4e mg5s Ef5e Mb4n would be a big mistake. I do not see a way to meet these moves and some variations: 9s ee4w de6s de5s de4s 9s hh3s hh2w Cf2n hg2w Voluntarily pacifying our horse around a trap we're being attacked should raise alarm bells and it needs a good reason. I should have mentioned this earlier, but this is often a good way to escape the camel threat (9g, 9s just setup for the pattern, not a real line): 9g Hg4w Hf4s mg5s Ef5e 9s ee4w ed4w Mb4n ec4w 10g Mb5e hb6s Mc5s hb5e We should think about it in variations. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by half_integer on Nov 14th, 2015, 8:23am I agree with browni (as if my opinion could outweigh his anyways :) ). I had seen that lines with a silver dog coming to f3 can be a problem, as only the elephant can threaten it if the horse is too far away or frozen, and in most cases the elephant will also be too far away or overloaded. As for the two moves in the tiebreaker poll which pull the b6 silver horse, I'd like to examine Algorias' statement that the horse and camel can survive against the "lone elephant" (which actually has its own army for support there). I don't think they can but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I think the only outcome is the camel retreating near d3 and the horse immobilized, probably on a6. The Mc5 hb5 Hb6 pattern doesn't look good to me because the camel can be removed from c5 by the silver elephant. The horse then has to retreat to a6 or perhaps b7 while we still rescue the camel. At either position, it appears easily immobilized by silver using rabbit and small piece phalanxes along with the silver horse. The worst situation would be if silver can push our rabbit to a6 and leave his own horse on b5, but I think we can avoid those lines. So my vote will be for H->f3 first, H->h4 last, and the others in the middle. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by deep_blue on Nov 14th, 2015, 2:21pm I agree with pretty much everything half_integer said. This ranking looks plausible to me too. Browni's line looks interesting, my question, how do you want to play after 9g Hg4w Hf4s mg5s Ef5e 9s ee4w ed4w Mb4n ec4w 10g Mb5e hb6s Mc5s hb5e 10s hb6 But I still (not that my 10s refutes it...) think its the correct 9g. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by half_integer on Nov 14th, 2015, 6:32pm on 11/14/15 at 14:21:48, deep_blue wrote:
Is that the correct 10g? I think Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Hf3w is better - then if silver pushes M->d5 he is trading away camel for horse, and we rescue the camel next move. I think he has to play a variant of hh3n mg4wwn or Rg3w hh3w mg4w X. Our cat is hanging at this point but he'd be foolish to take it as we could phalanx at d2 and still get the camel, then bring our elephant west while he goes the long way around c3. The tactics are unclear to me after the suggested 10s. It seems likely silver will escape with the camel and only suffer an immobilized horse. But the position seems fairly symmetric, M+H at away trap vs. E+H in each case, and there's the possibility we could move the horse to c7 given a move with no pressing threats. I'll keep looking at possibilities. Maybe we should be disciplined and write out a move tree. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by half_integer on Nov 14th, 2015, 6:52pm I just realized that silver's best response to our H->f3 move may be to pull it back to f4, exactly what we were trying to avoid with the H->f4 moves: 9g Hg4ws mg5s Ef5e 9s ee4eww Hf3n what's the best response? One creative one is 10g Rg1n Rg3w mg4s Eg5s which leaves the camel unfrozen but doesn't let it escape. I still think it is worthwhile to play, as our single horse step takes three steps for silver to undo. I wonder if this line could have rescued the H->f4 lines which became unfavored in the poll. I'll have to go back and look at the other silver responses. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by deep_blue on Nov 15th, 2015, 4:58am How would the Hf4 line be rescued? Keep in mind we lost one step by playing Hf4s but silver lost 3 by playing ee4ew Hf3n. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by half_integer on Nov 15th, 2015, 2:18pm I agree that the Hf4s step is still worthwhile as it costs silver three steps to follow that line, and also serves the original purpose of preventing the silver horse from pushing into f2. But just for argument's sake I looked at the H->f4 lines again (and assumed R->g2 to still protect f2). They don't look bad to me, as Rg3ww mg4s Eg5s accelerates our attack quite a bit. If 9s were the ewww Mn move, silver only gets a trade if he takes the camel, and we're significantly ahead on steps (about 4) if we play out camel and horse trade. If the silver camel pushes down to the southeast corner, it's still trapped there and we can make a camel escape with the extra move that gives us while still having longer range threats on the silver camel and horse. The tactics don't look bad on fighting to rescue our camel if it is pushed to c5 and we advance pieces in the center either. I think instead silver would response Rg3w hh3w Hf4n mg4w or similar but again it looks to me that the tactics to keep the silver horse safe would require the silver elephant to stay near f3 for a while, though I don't know if we'd have enough free steps to make any progress at c6. I guess this inquiry is mostly moot as it is poll closing time, and these moves aren't in it anyway. But I'm intrigued what the consensus would have been if more eyes had been put on these lines earlier. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by Hippo on Nov 20th, 2015, 5:47am Will we be fine after mh4 Rg5 hg3? |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by deep_blue on Nov 20th, 2015, 1:57pm on 11/12/15 at 17:22:57, deep_blue wrote:
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by half_integer on Nov 20th, 2015, 4:01pm After the move mentioned by Hippo, I think we're generally in good shape. The silver elephant is still needed in the east to maintain the pattern and the silver horse and camel cannot leave the southeast easily, which I think leaves us with the effective strongest free piece, our camel. With that we should be able to do more damage than whatever silver can do for trap control at f3. I expect the silver camel will move west, not east, on 9s. But I'm unsure of the exact set of horse and camel moves silver will choose. I do think that if he double protects the f3 trap his elephant will still need to stay there too; we can create threats too quickly with our elephant already there. |
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Title: Re: 2015 Move 9g Post by SilverMitt on Nov 20th, 2015, 5:41pm Things seem to get interesting in a hurry with 9s H:Rg2 Mf4 Ee3. The horse can be flipped out of f3, but not too easily threatened, on the following move. Meanwhile we have to spend at least 2 steps to defend it on 10g, so pulling b6 would have to wait at least a turn. |
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