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        Team Games >> 2009 One vs TheMob >> 2015 Move 13g
        
(Message started by: deep_blue on Dec 26th, 2015, 9:29am)
Title: 2015 Move 13g
Post by deep_blue on Dec 26th, 2015, 9:29am
I was so free to open a new thread and move this to here:


on 12/26/15 at 08:42:05, half_integer wrote:
In our discussion, we only identified one silver reply to this move (12s Cd7 Rc7 Hb7 Mb6) so I think we can work on the next Gold reply.

The only piece that can protect the a6 horse is our camel, put on c5 or d6.  d6 doesn't appear desirable as it quickly leads to camel loss or various frames.  Mc5 alone is not good as it allows silver Mb5 Ed5 in one move which leads to immediate camel loss (Hb6 is false protection and the silver camel pull cannot be blocked).  To prevent that 13s I see two measures: pull the d6 dog with Mc5:Dd5 which allows Ed6 in 4 steps, or put a piece on b5, where Ra5b5 is the only one that can reach.  This latter move leaves us two free steps which we can debate below.

The wild-card move would be to not defend the horse and play for a rapid elephant rotation, with Mf5 or Me4.  There may be some moves with the same goal which do not use all four steps for the camel this move (though Me5 is not one of them: Dd5 E:Me6 is immediate camel-for-horse trade).

It is important to note that the camel-for-horse trade may be inevitable, at least in the lines where we defend c6, so rather than always reject lines with camel loss for horse sacrifice, we should determine if we can protect the a6 horse or get greater compensation.  Conversely, if we cannot protect the a6 horse long term then making progress now by not defending it becomes attractive.

So, an updated tree (SM notation only to save typing):

12g ::Hf3
12s Cd7 Rc7 Hb7 Mb6
13g
   1 Md6:Dc6
   - 1.1 Dc5 Ed5 (Hf3x) - indefensible camel loss with horse hostage

   2 Md6:De6
   - 2.1 Ed5 (Hf3x) Mb5
   - - 2.1.1 Ec5
   - - - 2.1.1.1 De7 Cg7 Df7 Hb6 - f6 cannot be defended but maybe a camel trade can be threatened?
   - - - - 2.1.1.1.1 E::Mb3
   - - - - - 2.1.1.1.1.1 Ec4::M
   - - - - - - 2.1.1.1.1.1.1 (E/R) Md5 Dd3 - and we seem to have freed our camel and gotten a camel hostage after two more moves?
   - - - - 2.1.1.1.2 E:Mb4 (Dd3 Hg4)
   - - - - - 2.1.1.1.2.1 Ec4::M - and our camel seems to have escaped
   - - - - - 2.1.1.1.2.2 Ec4 Ma4 X - our camel escapes here too
   - 2.2 Ed5 (Hf3x) X  
   - - 2.2.1 Dc5
   - - - 2.2.1.1 E:Mc6 X X - camel loss is unavoidable
   - - 2.2.2 Ec5
   - - - 2.2.2.1 E:Mc6 X X - this frame looks like an easy elephant rotation for silver, though we are up a horse in the short term
   - - - 2.2.2.2 De7 Cg7 Df7 X - f6 cannot be defended, but this time it is harder to make camel threats in response

   3 Mc5 X X X
   - 3.1 Ed5 (Hf3x) Mb5 - camel is indefensible and we still have a horse hostaged

   4 Mc5:Dd5 - note I didn't find any really bad responses to this yet
   - 4.1 Ed4 (Hf3x) Dd6 Ed5
   - - 4.1.1 Ec4 Mb5 - doesn't appear profitable for silver, he gets a horse trade at best
   - 4.2 Ed4 (Hf3x) De5 Ed5
   - - 4.2.1 Ec4 Mb5 - still just a horse trade for silver
   - 4.3 Ec4 (Hf3x) Mb5
   - - 4.3.1 Ed6
   - - - 4.3.1.1 E:Mc6 Mb6 X - this frame looks difficult but not impossible to rotate, so this position might be OK for gold (up a horse for a camel frame)
   - - - 4.3.1.2 E:Mc6 Hb6 Ra7b7
   - - - - 4.3.1.2.1 Ha7 M:Ha6 X - a strange little position which might leave the silver camel as strongest free piece but also gives gold access to the back ranks in the west
   - - - 4.3.1.3 is there an even better silver move?
   - 4.4 Ec4 (Hf3x) Cd6
   - - 4.4.1 Rb5 M:De5 X - silver seems to get the horse and rabbit at c6 but it looks like gold's camel can always escape

This has taken a while so I'm going to edit in more later.
   5 Mc5 Rb5 X X - to be expanded
   6 Mf5 / Me4 / Md4 X / Md5 X X / Mc4 X X - lots of work to do here

I noticed that I'm almost exclusively focused on the silver moves which sacrifice the framed horse; there is the possibility of silver responses which defend but don't try for a trade.

Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by Hippo on Dec 26th, 2015, 7:48pm
I don't like holding frame f3 horse with camel f4. In that case our elephant is restricted to be around f6 for most of the time to prevent Mh trade. Holding such frame and be Horse down would be really bad.

Actually I was thinking only about Mc5 Rb5 x x.

BTW: I cannot see how to play Mc5 Dd5 move.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by SilverMitt on Dec 28th, 2015, 3:57pm
By the way, silver has played the expected 12s.  I don't actually like any move with Mc5 strategically now.  I was wondering whether we should consider a move like 13g Ed5 gh5.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by half_integer on Dec 28th, 2015, 7:10pm
Deep, somehow you quoted an older version of that post.  A reload in the 12g thread should show the update.  When I have time to add lines I'll probably repost the whole thing here.  (Do others find this tree too thorough?)

Hippo, Mc5:Dd5 would be the four steps Meew ds

I hadn't worked all the lines to add to the tree yet, but I'm liking the idea of Mc5 Rb5 and then, when silver moves his camel south, fleeing east to threaten the rotation.  It may be possible to keep silver in a catch-22 where he can't threaten both the horse and the camel at the same time, and we get free steps in the meantime.  The biggest worry is that silver could change the situation around f6 enough to prevent the camel coming across safely.  For instance, instead of M:Ra5 Hb6 Rcb7 he could play M:Ra5 Dfe6 X allowing single-move capture of a camel on f5.  There are a lot of possibilities to consider though.

I'm against giving up the frame voluntarily, but if we move the elephant I think it should be Ec5 since this threatens the camel pull immediately.  Another outlier move would be creating a goal threat in the east to reduce silver's free steps.  I'm not sure how something like Rh5 Hg5 Mc5 would work out - silver's horse is partly blockaded in the southeast.

I'm working this week so it might be a while before I explore a lot of lines.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by SilverMitt on Dec 29th, 2015, 3:58am
I don't actually think that the pull threat following 13g Ec5 is that strong, and silver could just capture the g5 rabbit (possibly with just a prosaic 13s H:gf5) rather than race in attacking f3, in which case we seem behind.

But we can force silver to play 3 steps to make up for the gh5 step, while we work on breaking the horse hostage.  Silver's best plan might still be to win the rabbit, but if instead the attack on f3 comes, that would be more enjoyable practically than just losing a rabbit and winding up with a deadlocked west afterwards.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by Hippo on Dec 29th, 2015, 5:45am
What is wrong with Mc5 Rb5 Rh5 Rh1? Or with Ms5 Rb5 x y in general?
What would be the best x, y?

... With the Dd5 confusion ... I am used to use capital letters just for gold. When convention to use them for both gold and silver started?
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by clyring on Dec 29th, 2015, 6:20am

on 12/29/15 at 05:45:28, Hippo wrote:
What is wrong with Mc5 Rb5 Rh5 Rh1? Or with Ms5 Rb5 x y in general?
What would be the best x, y?

... With the Dd5 confusion ... I am used to use capital letters just for gold. When convention to use them for both gold and silver started?

In SilverMitt notation, the convention as I understand it is that all piece names are capitalized, but pieces of the nonmoving side are only and exactly those appearing after a : in a term. Mc5:Dd5 on a gold move is taken to mean gold camel moves to c5, while pushing or pulling a silver dog to d5 somehow.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by Hufflepup on Dec 29th, 2015, 12:29pm

Quote:
I don't actually like any move with Mc5 strategically now.  I was wondering whether we should consider a move like 13g Ed5 gh5.


We don't actually have to play gh5 to protect the horse if we play Ed5. If silver took the horse on 13g we would take the camel on 14g. This would allow us to play Rg5e instead.


Quote:
I hadn't worked all the lines to add to the tree yet, but I'm liking the idea of Mc5 Rb5 and then, when silver moves his camel south, fleeing east to threaten the rotation.


Why would silver want to move the camel south when it is holding a good hostage?
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by half_integer on Dec 29th, 2015, 7:44pm
I see that Ed5 Rh5 effectively protects the a6 horse, but how do we respond to something like 13s Df6e4 Hf4?  It doesn't look like the f3 trap can be held without the elephant returning, in which case we've just wasted steps, but maybe you see a better path through that trap fight.  I suppose 14g Ee4:Dd4 Mc5?

Hufflepup: "Why would silver want to move the camel south when it is holding a good hostage?" - see line 3.1.  Playing 13s Mb5:Ra5 with our camel on c5 sets up a similar indefensible camel-for-horse trade if we don't act proactively (it just takes one extra step because of the rabbit on b5), and rabbit on a5 keeps our horse from escaping still.

I do see the same weakness Hippo pointed out for rotating the camel to f4; I will not explore these lines unless someone thinks this is a good long-term tradeoff.

So, along with the dog pull to d5, I think that Mc5 Rb5 X X is still the leading contender (though we have to be careful).  What are the most useful remaining two steps?  I see the value in Rh5; I'd also like to put Rd1 which strengthens our ability to keep pieces off d4 and e4 (though, if we don't see a line with camel or horse there, this could be deferred).  At the same time, I'd like to get the a2 or b1 rabbits at least one step closer to b3 and eventually the c6 fight.  Finally, moving the g1 rabbit will need to be done eventually as well.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by SilverMitt on Dec 31st, 2015, 3:09am
Well, 13g Ed5 gh5 13s Dfe4 Hf4 14g Mb3 Eb5 looks okay for us.  13s Hf4 E:Hh3 may be quite strong, though, enough to make me think that giving up the g5 rabbit is better than any alternative here.

If we do play Mc5+ab5 on 13g, one thing to worry about the silver camel coming to b5 is that it may look to go to a5 next.  Also, it is actually quite difficult to retreat our camel safely.  We'd need to put a dog on d4 along with the camel on c4.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by deep_blue on Jan 1st, 2016, 11:24am
Anyone wants to play some other move than those mentioned? I'll try to start a (first) poll tomorrow morning (though with the option of "more discussion").
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by Hufflepup on Jan 1st, 2016, 1:07pm

Quote:
13s Hf4 E:Hh3 may be quite strong, though, enough to make me think that giving up the g5 rabbit is better than any alternative here.


I would be surprised if Sharp was willing to decentralise the elephant so much. We should be all right with something like:

14g: De2n Ed5w Mb5s Mb4s
14s: hf4s Cf2w hf3s df6s

The camel can move across to take the horse hostage, and as soon as the situation arounf the trap is stabilised we can flip out the camel on the opposite wing.

If silver pushed the horse north instead on 13s then
14g: Ed5w De2n Mdb5s mb4e Would lead to a horse excange, however our follow up threats to the camel look better.


Quote:
If we do play Mc5+ab5 on 13g, one thing to worry about the silver camel coming to b5 is that it may look to go to a5 next.  Also, it is actually quite difficult to retreat our camel safely.  We'd need to put a dog on d4 along with the camel on c4.


The camel could be retreated with
14g: Mc5e Md5s Ef4w Md4s

But this will almost certainly lead to a horse for horse and rabbit in Sharps favour.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by SilverMitt on Jan 2nd, 2016, 2:31am
So, it looks to me that a 13g with Mc5+ab5 is just untenable when answered with a 13s including M:ba5.  Silver doesn't necessarily have to play the Hb6+cb7 steps to force us to retreat the camel, and so the tactics should wind up favoring silver, either being able to improve while we have to spend all our steps to parry threats, or just winning material outright.

If we do decide to bring our elephant to free the hostage, then we are committed to it, so silver can and should decentralize the elephant if the goal is to attack around f3; otherwise our g3 horse can hold things for a while.  Then, we can't afford a rabbit step to save our rabbit, and it might be better on g5 if something were to get flipped to f5, as well.

Thus, I am now in favor of 13g Ec5 and I hope silver cannot win more than a rabbit immediately.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by half_integer on Jan 2nd, 2016, 7:42am
I thought you were in favor of Ed5 Rh5, not Ec5.  When did the former get refuted, or you decided the latter was stronger?

And what is the overall thinking on Mc5:Dd5?  I'd like to have the free steps of the simpler Mc5 Rb5, but I didn't find a fatal flaw to the fight after this move.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by half_integer on Jan 2nd, 2016, 5:23pm
SilverMitt, I'd still like to hear more of your thoughts on what happens after 13g Mc5 Rb5 X X 13s M:Ra5 X X - maybe there are alternate Gold moves to follow up.

Have you considered 14g Eb4, attacking the silver camel when it advances?  This also provides avenues to free the gold camel from the anticipated attack.

Maybe you still don't consider this ideal - we each get two free steps and we're more decentralized, but the armies are about equal in distribution on the board.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by SilverMitt on Jan 3rd, 2016, 4:13am
I suppose we can fold Mc5:Dd5 into the same ideas as all the Mc5+ab5 lines, if 13s Dd6 De5 Mb5 is good enough.

Now, the camel on c5 just feels incredibly vulnerable to me, and it is silver who gets to decide how to engage tactically and has several great options to choose from; most lines with 14g Eb4 would seem to be answered well enough by 14s Hf4 Ec4.

Meanwhile, I am still more or less of the same opinion on 13g Ec5, and think we're probably losing a rabbit, unless silver can actually get even more.  But if we are committing to using the elephant to free the hostage, then our camel can't make it back in time to support f3 after 13s Hf4 E:Hh3.  After 13g Ec5 13s Hf4 E:Hh3, perhaps we have just enough time to stall at f3 to make progress around c6 after something like 14g Mb4 De3 Cf3 f2 (note that this is already using 3 steps just to get one more around c6).  Meanwhile, after 13g Ed5 gh5 13s Hf4 E:Hh3, we probably have to give up a cat in a similar line.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by half_integer on Jan 3rd, 2016, 7:14pm
I know it is not rational, that move 12g is a "sunk cost"; however, making an elephant move now seems like changing strategies mid-stream (to mangle a metaphor).  If the elephant should be at c6, why did we not see that last move and make it so?  Perhaps this IS the better move and we simply made a mistake, but I hope not.

Forcing silver to sacrifice the horse to go after material still feels like we're getting a better deal.  Even a camel-for-horse trade is perhaps less than losing a single rabbit, if we can also free the hostage and save the rabbit.  (If we can keep a fight requiring the silver elephant in the west, then our g-file horse will be free to defend the rabbit and be strongest piece in the east.)

If we take the elephant west then we are fighting for control and slight advantage while defending two traps.  Personally I feel better fighting sharp strategically than tactically (and sharp seems weaker evaluating after trades).

I may be right or I may be wrong, but let's discuss.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by SilverMitt on Jan 4th, 2016, 1:10am
Silver buried the horse in order to take our horse hostage, and the last move to frame the horse does make it more difficult for silver to replace our horse on g3 with their own.  If we could imagine surviving the assault on f3 after 13g Ed5 gh5, then I'd love to try it.  But if we're losing at least a cat in that line, we shouldn't waste a step to save the rabbit.

Meanwhile, the camel on c5 seemed okay to me on the assumption that the silver camel had to stay on b6.  Since it can come to b5, I consider that likely unplayable for us, as I don't see how we can free the horse hostage even with a camel-for-horse exchange.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by Hufflepup on Jan 5th, 2016, 3:19am
Looking further at 13g: Ef4w Ee4w Ed4n Rg5e I don't think we can play it as 13s: hf3n rg6s rg5s rg4e is too strong.

Our advanced rabbit can't make a counter goal threat without bringing the elephant back across, which will just cause us to go down a horse. We don't have time to go after the camel as:
14g: Ed5w Mb5s Mb4s rg1e
14s: hf4e df6s df5s rh4s
15g: Ec5w Eb5e mb6s Rh1n
15s: ee3e ef3w Hg3w hg4s
16g: df4n Hf3n Rf1e Rc1e
16s: ee3n ee4s Hf4w df5s

Leaves silver with a strong attack in the east and no way we can avoid going down on material in the near future (At least one cat, possibly more).

Even if we concentrated on defence on the east from 14g:
14g: Ed5w Rg1e Rh1n Rh2n
14s: hf4e df6s df5s rf8e
15g: Rc1e Rd1e Rb1e Rc1e
15s: ee3e ef3w Hg3w hg4s

The only way to avoid an immediate loss of the horse is to push the dog north, at which point we have no way to avoid losing it in f6 unless we bring the elephant across and sacrifice the hostaged horse in the east. We also have to worry about silver getting an advanced rabbit to h2. We can't make a counter threat to the camel as silver has enough time to take the eastern horse before protecting the camel.

By contrast if we maintain the frame we only go down a rabbit, and we would have the initative  after the horse exchange.

What do we do if the vote remains tied after the next vote? I would be OK with deep_blue breaking the tie to avoid using too much reserve voting again.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by deep_blue on Jan 5th, 2016, 3:36am
I don't feel comfortable breaking the tie myself. I think I'll set up another vote (with probably all moves though some of them shouldn't matter) and only if that again ends in a tie I would break the tie myself (since then it would seem we indeed wouldn't get anywhere otherwise).
But first we need more precise analysis since I feel we are on the verge of falling apart.
Hufflepup, I think I mainly agree with your lines (though I am not 100% convinced) but what was the alternative you were thinking of? You said keep the frame so Mb5e Ra5e? That doesn't look too great either and as long as we don't have a valid alternative to the Ed5 Rh5...
As for 13g Ec5, wouldn't similar lines be good for silver (I haven't looked at the details though...)?
EDIT:
An exact same line wouldn't work well and while the lines still look fishy I don't see how exactly we lose. But more analysis is needed there.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by Hufflepup on Jan 5th, 2016, 12:13pm

Quote:
Hufflepup, I think I mainly agree with your lines (though I am not 100% convinced) but what was the alternative you were thinking of? You said keep the frame so Mb5e Ra5e? That doesn't look too great either and as long as we don't have a valid alternative to the Ed5 Rh5


I agree that it doesn't look great as we will probably go down a rabbit, however I can't see any moves which avoid this loss without avoiding an either bigger loss. I think this move is a case of minimising our losses so we can fight back better later. I can't see any better alternative than Mb5e Ra5e Rg5e x for this.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by SilverMitt on Jan 5th, 2016, 12:25pm
I don't actually like either 13s or 14s in that line, but it is a way to attack f3 while keeping the elephant centralized.  Our main way of keeping our horse from being replaced on g3 would be to spend a step to play Cf3, and then, if flipped out, 2 more steps for Df3, hopefully buying enough time to threaten the camel.  There doesn't seem to be as great of a difference between 13g Ec5 and 13g Ed5 gh5 after this 13s, but I see our position as playable in both cases.

Bottom line to me is that if we were to play Mc5+ab5, we would just wind up losing time move after move before eventually having to bring the elephant west, anyway, or allowing a camel-for-horse exchange while silver keeps the horse hostage.  So, we should not waste time in freeing the hostage.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by Hufflepup on Jan 5th, 2016, 4:20pm

Quote:
I don't actually like either 13s or 14s in that line, but it is a way to attack f3 while keeping the elephant centralized.  Our main way of keeping our horse from being replaced on g3 would be to spend a step to play Cf3, and then, if flipped out, 2 more steps for Df3, hopefully buying enough time to threaten the camel.  There doesn't seem to be as great of a difference between 13g Ec5 and 13g Ed5 gh5 after this 13s, but I see our position as playable in both cases.


Wouldn't this cost us the cat?


Quote:
Bottom line to me is that if we were to play Mc5+ab5, we would just wind up losing time move after move before eventually having to bring the elephant west, anyway, or allowing a camel-for-horse exchange while silver keeps the horse hostage.  So, we should not waste time in freeing the hostage.


Why would we lose the camel. It doesn't look to hard to retreat.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by SilverMitt on Jan 5th, 2016, 9:22pm

on 01/05/16 at 16:20:37, Hufflepup wrote:
Wouldn't this cost us the cat?

The cat could be worth the potential camel hostage, if silver takes the time to capture it.  It's better than allowing the silver horse on g3.  But that's why I'd rather give up the rabbit with 13g Ec5.


Quote:
Why would we lose the camel. It doesn't look to hard to retreat.

If we retreat the camel, we lose time.  It has to stay around c5 because the horse remains a hostage even when not immediately threatened with capture.  If it comes to c4, we also need a piece to stay on d4 to keep it from being pushed back.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by mattj256 on Jan 6th, 2016, 12:08pm
Hi all.
I'm having trouble keeping track of all the suggested moves and countermoves - are there any good tools to view and comment on move trees?

I'm probably the lowest-rated person here so take what I say with a grain of salt...

My first thought is that our f3 frame isn't that useful - we're using an E+H+xxx to trap an E+H.  Unless we have a plan to rotate out the E, the frame is of questionable value.

If passing were a legal move and we passed, what would Sharp do?  
First choice: 13s Mc5:Hc6
Second choice: 13s rh6s rg6e df6e X (forcing Gold to abandon the frame or lose a rabbit)

Have we considered this? 13g Ef4 : Df5 Mb5e
This way if silver abandons the frame we're threatening to win a HD for M, or we're threatening to save the M and win a H outright.  It's more noncommittal than I would like; I don't see any way to make good strong threats in this position, and I'd say gold is on the defensive here.

Do we have a plan to rotate the E out of the frame?

Edit: I didn't realize that the poll had already started and deep_blue had already selected the moves.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by half_integer on Jan 6th, 2016, 6:04pm
Hi Matt.


on 01/06/16 at 12:08:39, mattj256 wrote:
Have we considered this? 13g Ef4 : Df5 Mb5e
This way if silver abandons the frame we're threatening to win a HD for M, or we're threatening to save the M and win a H outright.


The problem is 13s Mb5 Ec4 (Hf3x).  From this position the camel cannot be saved (it's in a basket, and Hb6 is false protection).  If we take the dog 14g ::Df3x then 14s M:Ra4 E:Mc6x also leaves no way to save the horse and we are down camel+horse for horse+dog with our only compensation the temporary imbalance in silver's forces.

Most of the rest that you said is accurate, though.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by mattj256 on Jan 6th, 2016, 11:04pm

on 01/06/16 at 18:04:55, half_integer wrote:
The problem is 13s Mb5 Ec4 (Hf3x).
Ok that makes sense.  I never would have seen that without you pointing it out.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by mattj256 on Jan 6th, 2016, 11:25pm
13g Ef4nww Rg5e
13s mc6 : Hb6 rb7s ra7s (threatening H)
14g  :Mc5 Rg1e
14s Hf3n Ee3nww
15g (Gold pushes onto d6 and stuffs the c6 trap?)

This seems reasonable for gold.  I'm probably missing something.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by SilverMitt on Jan 7th, 2016, 6:56pm
Perhaps another interesting 13s in reply to 13g Ec5 and 13g Ed5 gh5 is simply 13s Hg4 Df4, not committing to the elephant decentralization and immediately threatening the pull-and-replace.
Title: Re: 2015 Move 13g
Post by SilverMitt on Jan 8th, 2016, 4:02pm
Well, if we wind up losing a camel for a horse, I would imagine that to be hopelessly behind for a game with this time control.  Curious how silver plays from here.

I was entirely set against a 13g with an Mc5 step, so I did not propose anything for the additional steps, but the two I would have liked, along with ab5, were a4.


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