Arimaa Forum - Print Page


    
      
        Arimaa Forum
        (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi)
      

        Team Games >> 2011 Arimaa World League >> AWL 2011 Pilot Match
        
(Message started by: megajester on Apr 25^th, 2011, 5:18am)

Title: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by megajester on Apr 25^th, 2011, 5:18am

OK so which of the 4 teams feels like giving the new League format a try?

We will have at least one trial match, in the collaborative format that was showcased at the Arimaa Online Festival last year.

Proposed rules are as follows. Please note that the word "captain" now means something different to last year. Just read the bold bits if you want a quick overview:

- Each manager confers with his own team and the opposing manager to agree on a game time (using the new tool to determine the best times). They inform the organizer of this game time which can subsequently be changed only with both managers' agreement. The organizer publicises the match and makes preparations for commentary etc.

- The manager submits a roster of players for the match. Players with their name on the roster are barred from the gameroom chatroom for the duration of the match. The organizer maintains the roster, which can be changed on formal request by the manager (or a player in extreme circumstances) at any time up to the start of the match.

- At least 3 players on the roster must be present at the start of the game otherwise the team forfeits.

- The "captain" is the player making the moves, and is responsible for the final decision. The manager may predetermine who will be the captain or this can be decided ad hoc on the day. The only rule is that the two highest ranked team members on the roster are barred from being captain.

- The "team chatroom" is the online environment where the rostered team members discuss the moves during the match. It is off-limits to all except rostered team members and organizer(s). By default the team chatrooms will be the Gold and Silver rooms on Teamspeak, which bosts both voice and text chatting facilities. If another online environment is to be used as the team chatroom it must be approved by the organiser.

I'd especially like to hear the managers' impressions, but of course everybody should feel free to chip in with suggestions.

Edit: Please note that the roster is not the same thing as the list of team members. The list of team members is permanent, the roster can change with every match. The point of the roster is to work out who is banned from the gameroom chatroom during matches and who is allowed into the team chatroom.

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by ocmiente on Apr 25^th, 2011, 11:53am

This format sounds interesting. Looking forward to seeing how it works out.

Will the same rules as last year apply with respect to the number or ratings points a team can spend for the tournament?

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by megajester on Apr 25^th, 2011, 12:02pm

on 04/25/11 at 11:53:39, ocmiente wrote:

Will the same rules as last year apply with respect to the number or ratings points a team can spend for the tournament?

The reasoning behind that one was to make sure teams fielded weaker players. I think the "first two players can't be captain" rule might be enough.

The fact that only one person can speak at a time places a natural limit on the size of the roster, even if you do make good use of the text chat function. I'm thinking that once clubs end up with a core of 5-10 semi-regular members we'll need to start founding new clubs, but we're not quite there yet.

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by ocmiente on Apr 26^th, 2011, 1:09pm

on 04/25/11 at 12:02:39, megajester wrote:

The reasoning behind that one was to make sure teams fielded weaker players. I think the "first two players can't be captain" rule might be enough.

So, this means that each team can field their best three players each round?

Also, what are the time controls for these matches? I'm guessing 90seconds per move. Did the players feel that that was enough time to discuss the moves during the Arimaa Festival?

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by Hippo on Apr 26^th, 2011, 2:39pm

on 04/26/11 at 13:09:14, ocmiente wrote:

Wow 90s for collaborative match it's like lightning speed in single player mode.

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by megajester on Apr 27^th, 2011, 2:06am

on 04/26/11 at 13:09:14, ocmiente wrote:

1. Theoretically yes but in practice this is unlikely to happen. Last year the managers had enough trouble finding 3 players each match as it was. If supply really does outstrip demand, we can start new clubs. Is my current thinking. Edit: The roster can have as many players as you like on it (meaning as many as you think can fit into Teamspeak, with a couple of spares in case a few don't show up). But yes, presumably No. 3 will usually end up being captain.

2. Was the time control 90s in the AOF? Would those who took part in the collab. matches in the AOF like to share their impressions?

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by Nombril on Apr 28^th, 2011, 6:56am

For the AOF, we used: 90s/3m/100/0/1h55m/4m

At that speed, there were many times that I just played my own move since there wasn't time to discuss details or achieve consensus. I don't recall if it was 25% or 50% of the time.

The 1h55m time limit was also too short relative to the 90s move time - if you want the game to finish. (That time limit was to fit it into the day's schedule...) At those time controls it would be practical to go up a rabbit and then stall to win based on most captured pieces.

Many of the teams used slow moves / stalling techniques /etc to build up more time for discussion, so between that and any 'direction changes' caused by the group changing their mind, I would expect the number of turns required to finish a game would tend to be higher than in a normal game.

I can't imagine we could get 6 or more people in different time zones to be available for and commit to more than a 3 hour block of time. Maybe I'm wrong? But I would suggest starting with 90s/move and a 3hr game limit.

It will definitely create time pressure. That will reward the teams that can communicate efficiently (or just let the top player dictate the moves... :-X ).

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by megajester on Apr 28^th, 2011, 10:37am

Thanks for your impressions Nombril.

To a large extent it's up to the clubs to decide how they want to debate their moves. A possible scenario is to only have the captain and perhaps two of the other players present to speak, and for everybody else to use the text chat function on Teamspeak to either make suggestions or say whose idea they like.

In any case I think anything more than 3 people talking will be pushing it. Which means you may be right, ocmiente, perhaps we do need a way to make sure the same player doesn't get picked every week to be captain. Perhaps simply a limit on how many times a player can be captain during the season.

Woh is the only manager I haven't heard back from yet. Perhaps soon we can set a date for the pilot match.

Everybody, please keep sharing your thoughts, even if you have nothing new to add. Just knowing whether or not you think you will enjoy this format is useful.

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by robinz on Apr 28^th, 2011, 10:43am

OK, I'll say something then, as a relatively new (and weak) Arimaa player and being totally new to the World League :)

I'm afraid that I don't much like the idea of consultation games - fine as a one off, but not as the only way league points can be won. And especially in a real-time game with limited time to discuss. I fear that it would end up with everyone just following the suggestions of the strongest player on the team, which doesn't feel like the way a team event should run. Personally, while I didn't play in it, I like the idea of what happened last year - three (or however many) individual 1v1 games in each match, with an incentive for the teams to pick some of their weaker players at least once in a while. Perhaps I missed out on some reason why this was felt to be unsatisfactory though?

Please don't take this criticism to heart - I certainly appreciate all the hard work you do to set up and run the league :) But I signed up for a team a couple of weeks ago, and didn't realise I was only signing up for consultation games (in which I'm sure I'd never have any sensible suggestions that hadn't already been mentioned by stronger players).

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 28^th, 2011, 10:47am

Nombril's experience fits in with mine from live team chess games where I was one of the weaker players on the team. Meaningful discussion takes too long; the stronger players didn't have time to explain why my suggestions were rejected. When the moves were decided by majority rule, the team played much more weakly than when the captain (and strongest player) just played the move that looked best to him. The correct team strategy was to not behave as a team. Thus my diminished enthusiasm for consultation games.

This is in stark contrast to my experience with Mob games, both in chess and Arimaa, where there are days to discuss and vote on every move. At postal speeds there is time to explain what separates a good move from a bad one, and majority rule can produce play that is stronger than the strongest player by himself. Thus the correct strategy is to actually be a team and work together.

If there is going to be an experiment with a live consultation game for the AWL, I recommend choosing a time control longer than you think is reasonable, say three minutes per move. This would probably require a relay between team members, because few people can commit for a five- or six-hour block. But collectively perhaps the team could cover the whole time commitment with people joining as they were able and leaving when they had to. I know such a long game sounds absurd, but to me it seems the only hope of making the team game truly about the team and not just about the strongest player.

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 28^th, 2011, 12:05pm

on 04/28/11 at 10:43:28, robinz wrote:

I like the idea of what happened last year - three (or however many) individual 1v1 games in each match, with an incentive for the teams to pick some of their weaker players at least once in a while. Perhaps I missed out on some reason why this was felt to be unsatisfactory though?

I must have also missed the reason the old format was scrapped. Was it just too much work for megajester, so he burned out? That's a perfectly valid reason, by the way. I'm not jumping up to volunteer in his place, because I know how much commitment it requires. I just want to be clear, though, if we otherwise thought last year's format was great, that the current discussion is driven by wanting to do something easier.

If not, would folks mind repeating for me what I missed, namely what was wrong with last year's style of team matches?

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by ocmiente on Apr 28^th, 2011, 12:25pm

on 04/28/11 at 10:43:28, robinz wrote:

.... Personally, while I didn't play in it, I like the idea of what happened last year - three (or however many) individual 1v1 games in each match, with an incentive for the teams to pick some of their weaker players at least once in a while...

I agree with what you wrote, robinz (and Fritzlein too). While I am interested to see how a collaborative game might work out, I was satisfied with how the league worked out last year. I did feel the team spirit, mostly at the beginning of the league, when several people were in the chat room discussing the game as it went along. Later on, it seemed like fewer people were in the chat room discussing games. If there was a way to maintain that early enthusiasm, and more people showed up to discuss the game in the chat room (or even better, in teamspeak) as it was going on, then that might help as much as the collaborative game idea in building a sense of team, and in improving communication in general among the players.

Maybe the captains and the teams could work to try to get at least one or two players on their team to sign up to comment on their teammate's games in teamspeak as they go along, to make it more likely that there would be live discussion going on for each game. This would probably make it more likely to draw in more people to listen while the game went on, and contribute to the discussion. I know that's a lot to ask, but I also know that listening to the commentary on games that I've played has helped me as much as anything else I've done to learn how to play Arimaa.

I think I'd rather see two player games, with two other people from each team in teamspeak discussing the game, and other stuff, than in watching a collaborative game. I like the collaborative idea as an experiment, but I'm skeptical that it will work as well as last year's format. doing this for all of the games would be more demanding than one collaborative game, of course, so maybe pick one game to focus on for each team each week.

And I also really appreciate all of the work that continues to be put into the league idea. Thanks.

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by mistre on Apr 28^th, 2011, 4:08pm

I'll throw in another vote towards keeping it similar to last year's format. I was looking forward to it as I wasn't around for the previous one. I like the idea of commentators for the games. I am also skeptical that a live collaboration game can really work as intended. It almost seems like it would be MORE work to make sure everything goes off without a hitch.

For another collaboration idea, check out my post in the postal thread. I think 2 vs 2 postal matches could be a lot of fun.

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by Hippo on May 31^st, 2011, 6:19am

OK, I like the idea of commented games of previous year format.
I like the idea of collaborative game as well and I would prefer nonlightning speed for it ... yes 3 minutes per move looks "blitz" accurate :).
The problem of 6 hour game would be with player responsible for making moves.
Could the player be changed during the match?
How to implement it? ...
To have Team account and log on it according TeamSpeak conclusion?
But what will I prefere most would be mob-like postal team format. With say 3 days per turn in average?
Advantage of the postal format would be we could play all matches in parallel. With 3 days per turn it could take around a year to finish it. So may be 2 days?
It's a team decision how to discuss moves. Clojure's tool could be helpfull, google docs as well ... even in this case Team account would be helpfull.

Oh postal matches were discussed in separate thread.

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by Fritzlein on May 31^st, 2011, 11:44am

Any event rises or falls based on how much enthusiasm there is for it, which is related to how much pent up demand there is. I think megajester in another thread wisely concluded that it was best to wait until a fair number of Postal Mixer games were over, so that instead of people feeling that some event was already scratching their Arimaa itch, they would be champing at the bit to play. Since I got off to a slow start on the Postal Mixer, that will perhaps be late July for me, but earlier for others. Apart from that point, there is the question of whether more people would jump on the bandwagon if the game were live or postal, one-on-one or consultation, budgeted or free-for-all, etc.

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by mistre on May 31^st, 2011, 9:53pm

on 05/31/11 at 11:44:23, Fritzlein wrote:

Apart from that point, there is the question of whether more people would jump on the bandwagon if the game were live or postal, one-on-one or consultation, budgeted or free-for-all, etc.

Is there a polling feature available in this forum? That would be a handy way to get everyone's vote on what they would like the most.

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by megajester on Jun 3^rd, 2011, 7:18am

on 05/31/11 at 21:53:29, mistre wrote:

Is there a polling feature available in this forum? That would be a handy way to get everyone's vote on what they would like the most.

Wish granted

I'd like to invite everybody interested in the AWL to click here and take this 5-question survey. (http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/558909/Which-format-would-you-prefer-for-the-Arimaa-World-League-in-2011)

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by megajester on Jun 4^th, 2011, 3:56pm

We've had 11 responses to the survey already.

I think I'll give it another few days to give others the opportunity to respond.

If you haven't already done so and you'd like to have your say about the Arimaa World League 2011, please click and complete the 5-question survey before Wednesday 8th June. (http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/558909/Which-format-would-you-prefer-for-the-Arimaa-World-League-in-2011)

Title: Re: AWL 2011 Pilot Match
Post by megajester on Jun 8^th, 2011, 3:14pm

Click for survey results (http://appv3.sgizmo.com/reportsview/?key=142096-695957-36bb4cad098c20e8abc22e6073d07dd3)

I'd say that was an overwhelming "yes" to keep the AWL in its present format.

However, I still think it might be good to retain the collaborative format as a separate single round robin tournament. Maybe.