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        Arimaa >> Events >> A suggestion about the World championship
        
(Message started by: Arimanator on Sep 18^th, 2005, 8:08pm)

Title: A suggestion about the World championship
Post by Arimanator on Sep 18^th, 2005, 8:08pm

Given that a game between two humans can last 80 plus moves with a 2min. thinking time per move that means more than 5 Hour consecutive game. It may be difficult for two players from different time zones and sometimes busy schedules to find 5 hours that will accommodate both players. I propose that an adjournment procedure be permitted for those games the same way as in chess before the suspension one player send an invisible move that will only be revealed to the other player after the game is resumed.

I am aware that this may mean some programming (Omar only knows how much) but I believe that it would be worth it.

It would be too bad if a high level game is won by forfeit. Or if one game is played in the middle of the afternoon by one player and the middle of the night by the other (which would skew somehow the result).

Title: Re: A suggestion about the World championship
Post by Adanac on Sep 18^th, 2005, 10:31pm

An adjournment feature would be a great idea for the championship, and also for any other human vs. human games that last an unexpectedly long time - there are players in so many different time zones here. Fortunately, unlike in chess, adjournments are not spoiled by computer analysis in this game because we humans are superior, right? ;) I'm also confident there would be no "adjournment assistance" from any of our players. :-X

The only difficulties might be the extra scheduling because now players would have to agree upon 2 dates & times for each game and one player may be at a disadvantage if the adjournment date is less convenient i.e. psychologically required to press harder in the first session - and not to mention all the extra work for Omar.

Title: Re: A suggestion about the World championship
Post by Fritzlein on Sep 18^th, 2005, 11:00pm

Adjournment is a very interesting idea, and I confess I like it better than the idea of fast time controls. I have felt torn between wanting 2 minutes per move and also wanting games to positively end in four hours so that the scheduling is reasonable. The balance for me is tipped towards 2 minutes per move, because there is only one game per week, and because the majority of game will end in four hours anyway, with an average just over three hours.

On the other hand, it would be nice to be sure of a four-hour limit, so that more time slots would be feasible. And as Adanac pointed out, one can hardly get much help from computers in an adjourned position. Indeed, one wouldn't have to ban outside assistance at all, given that the game will likely diverge from analysis after one or two moves anyway.

The serious drawback for the World Championship format, however, is that the pairing for each round can't be done without knowing the results from the previous round. If I have one loss already, and adjourn a game on the weekend, Omar won't know whether I should be paired on Monday or not, because it won't be clear whether or not I will be eliminated on the resumption of the adjourned game.

One would almost have to have a set time, say Sunday noon GMT, for the completion of all adjourned games, and that would be less fair to some time zones than others. Or can you think of a fair way to schedule the resumption without delaying the entire next round? Adanac's idea of the players agreeing to two time slots is reasonable, except that to insure an overlap of two time preference on two different days would require one to select almost 40 of the 59 time slots; I sometimes found it hard enough to select 30 acceptable slots of 59. It would be ironic if adjournment placed a greater scheduling burden on the players instead of making things easier.

By the way, Arimanator, I am hopeful that you are taking an interest in the World Championship format because you are considering playing. You are too talented to bash only the bots. I would be delighted to hear that we can count you in.

Title: Re: A suggestion about the World championship
Post by Adanac on Sep 18^th, 2005, 11:22pm

on 09/18/05 at 23:00:49, Fritzlein wrote:

One would almost have to have a set time, say Sunday noon GMT, for the completion of all adjourned games, and that would be less fair to some time zones than others. Or can you think of a fair way to schedule the resumption without delaying the entire next round?

It would be vital, in this scenario, that the start time for both sessions 1 & 2 be determined at the start of the week. This would allow all games to be completed on schedule, and it would ensure equal treatment for all time zones since each player would have the same number of days & evenings to complete the games. It would only be unfair if someone were forced, due to scheduling restraints, to have the game begin on Friday at noon and the adjournment scheduled for Saturday at 05:00 a.m. If the opponent were located 4 times zones to the east, then clearly the first player would be at a disadvantage in the adjournment session, and may feel compelled to play more aggressively than usual in the opening phase of the game. Ideally, each player would be able to schedule 2 convenient start times but I suspect this won't always happen due to our players being scattered across the globe.

Title: Re: A suggestion about the World championship
Post by Arimanator on Sep 18^th, 2005, 11:30pm

on 09/18/05 at 23:00:49, Fritzlein wrote:

...Indeed, one wouldn't have to ban outside assistance at all, given that the game will likely diverge from analysis after one or two moves anyway...

I agree in that respect Arimaa is closer to the game of Go where strategy is much more important than tactic and it doesn't matter where you'll put your next two stones if you have no idea where you're going.

Title: Re: A suggestion about the World championship
Post by Adanac on Sep 18^th, 2005, 11:40pm

on 09/18/05 at 23:00:49, Fritzlein wrote:

Adanac's idea of the players agreeing to two time slots is reasonable, except that to insure an overlap of two time preference on two different days would require one to select almost 40 of the 59 time slots; I sometimes found it hard enough to select 30 acceptable slots of 59. It would be ironic if adjournment placed a greater scheduling burden on the players instead of making things easier.

Oops, I forgot to address this in my previous post. We could set a rule whereby there's no adjournment if the players cannot agree upon a second time. It would be ridiculous to require an adjournment if both players found a second date impossible/very inconvenient but I wouldn't want to discard the idea of adjournment simply because adjournment dates can't always be agreed upon.

But even that suggestion opens up a can of worms. Suppose I were a devious player and I knew that my opponent tends to get mentally exhausted after a few hours of play. I would simply refuse to suggest an adjournment date and play the whole game in one session (no I wouldn't actually do that, but it's a loophole).

P.S. That's an interesting idea from Fritzlein to allow 3rd parties to provide analysis during an adjournment- I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps we could even encourage all the bots to provide public analysis between sessions so that both players have equal access to bot tactics (especially in messy positions). This would be a useful in the future when bots become stronger, but not so much for the upcoming championships.

Title: Re: A suggestion about the World championship
Post by Arimanator on Sep 19^th, 2005, 12:51am

on 09/18/05 at 23:40:05, Adanac wrote:

...But even that suggestion opens up a can of worms. Suppose I were a devious player and I knew that my opponent tends to get mentally exhausted after a few hours of play. I would simply refuse to suggest an adjournment date and play the whole game in one session (no I wouldn't actually do that, but it's a loophole)...

Hey, what you're describing here is a combination of Salieri (the one in the movie not the real one) and Moriarty. ;)

But seriously I believe that the adjournment shouldn't be at the discretion of either one of the player but imposed after a predermined period of time has elapsed.

I believe 3 hours would be reasonable. That way one would know in advance that no matter what he won't have to play more than 3 hours that day. That's programmable in one's schedule.

And I believe it would be easier to program, when the 3 hours are almost elapsed the players would get a signal that the next move will be the last one that day (we could in a pinch add that if both players veto that suspension it'll be annulled, so Salieri would have to get Mozart's consent to fulfill his nefarious plan ;) ).

I believe an objective 3 hours/40 moves? would be better than anything fluctuating (nec mergitur* ;D).

The second part of the game tho could be completed without interruptions since it's not likely to last more than 50 or sixty moves (at an extreme limit at that).

* "Fluctuat nec mergitur" "alway floats and never sinks" Motto of the city of Paris. ;)

Title: Re: A suggestion about the World championship
Post by 99of9 on Sep 19^th, 2005, 10:28am

on 09/18/05 at 20:08:28, Arimanator wrote:

before the suspension one player send an invisible move that will only be revealed to the other player after the game is resumed.

I think this is a good way to suspend.

Since the rules have already been published for a while, and some of us have registered, and this would require a well tested program change, I'd say this shouldn't be included in 2006WC, but I'd probably support it for subsequent years.

From Fritz:

Quote:

Indeed, one wouldn't have to ban outside assistance at all, given that the game will likely diverge from analysis after one or two moves anyway.

I think this would be a disaster. If your famous Dish-Washing game against bomb had been suspended at a certain critical move, I'll bet you would not enjoy giving me the ability to make a strategic suggestion to bomb.

I think we should strongly discourage "analysis" of any kind during such important games.

Title: Re: A suggestion about the World championship
Post by omar on Sep 24^th, 2005, 4:49am

I would like to add the option to adjourn games, though it would not be ready for this year's championship. But even if it was possible I don't think it's a good idea to allow adjourning of championship games for several reasons.

1. The logistics of organizing games that can be adjourned is much harder.

2. Impossible to prevent the players from studying and discussing the adjourned game. Consider a game that is adjourned after I make a move that threathens goal and there is only one way to stop it. I now have lots of time to think about what I will do next.

3. It's not a nice way to treat the fans and spectators who have come to watch the game. Now they must come again at another time which may not be convienient for them if they want to watch the rest of the game. I think it's important to consider the fans and spectators when organizing events and to make an effort to keep the event fun and entertaining for them as well.