Arimaa Forum - Print Page


    
      
        Arimaa Forum
        (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi)
      

        Arimaa >> Events >> Consolation Swiss Turnament?
        
(Message started by: grey_0x2A on Jan 31^st, 2009, 10:50am)

Title: Consolation Swiss Turnament?
Post by grey_0x2A on Jan 31^st, 2009, 10:50am

I was thinking that we might have a consolation tournament after the swiss rounds of the world class.

As a swiss tournament with 60s/5m/100/0/4h/4m. Just to compare and contrast to the current time, and to have another swiss tournament. Having only on swiss tournament per year I think is not enough.

Title: Re: Consolation Swiss Turnament?
Post by Janzert on Jan 31^st, 2009, 12:43pm

Is there a reason to have a swiss tournament rather than starting up the continuous tournament again?

Regarding the time control I agree that it seems like the 75% to reserve makes it fairly difficult for a player to dig his way back out of time trouble. I believe the reason for it was to try and make players move at a more regular rhythm for the spectators. I wonder if it wouldn't be better to use the 100% back to reserve but cap the reserve at 15 minutes or so. This would allow the player to use the maximum 4 minute thinking time for up to 5 moves which seems like it might be a good compromise.

Janzert

Title: Re: Consolation Swiss Turnament?
Post by grey_0x2A on Jan 31^st, 2009, 7:03pm

I think that 4 min is not too long to wait for a move indefinably. So I feel that an unlimited reserve time it not a big a deal.

My reasoning behind Swiss is: Swiss is a format with a beginning and an end, I find the continuous tournament nebulous, that we wish to use to rank players. There are a number of factors to decide in the Swiss tournament. If we run a few swiss tournaments , we can see what effect the choices make

For instance I think that first round should be random match ups,
and second tie-break if based on rank should be lower pre-tournament ranking (The lower person is playing better "today" and should be rewarded.) On second though maybe some almost random factor like <losing match moves>-<winning match moves> might be a better second tie break. In one Swiss system I played there was a tie break that was <Games won> - <Games lost>, but there was multiple games per match so it made sense. Both these metrics have a win fast and lose slow favor to them, that forces playing games to the end.

I am for past performance to be of no value at the start of a tournament, I think that how you rank should depend only on how you performed in that tournament, or in case of all tie-breaks exhausted a random coin flip.

Title: Re: Consolation Swiss Turnament?
Post by 99of9 on Feb 1^st, 2009, 4:54pm

I really like the continuous tournament, and am keen to see it restart whenever enough players are back in. One big advantage it has over a swiss tourney is that players are free to take weeks off if their timetables prevent them from playing. I believe this flexibility helps it retain its large player base.

However, if you do get enough interest in the swiss, I am interested in entering Gnobot in both if you are also willing to open up to bots.

Title: Re: Consolation Swiss Turnament?
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 1^st, 2009, 7:31pm

I would gladly hold off restarting the Continuous Tournament in order to not draw players away and give a Consolation Swiss room to take place. In fact, depending on how much trouble I have getting my book in print, I may have to hold off on the Continuous Tournament for a while whether or not another tournament is ongoing.

The biggest issue with a tournament is not the time control or the format, it is getting enough people to play. This problem is made greater if some of the likely suspects to play in a tournament are still busy playing in the World Championship finals. You should ask for a show of hands after the preliminaries are done to see if there is enough interest to get a consolation tournament off the ground. If not, then perhaps it would be better to wait until the finals and Challenge are over before trying to get a tournament started.

Title: Re: Consolation Swiss Turnament?
Post by omar on Feb 2^nd, 2009, 9:07am

grey_0x2A it seems that you really want to experiment with two different things here. One is variations in the time control and the other is variations in the Swiss tournament.

For variations in the Swiss tournament I think the best way to experiment with it would be to run simulations. You will be able to see the results of 1000's of tournaments and have complete control over them. Real tournament have just too many things that can go wrong with them that you will never be able to get conclusive results; and you will never be able to run enough of them to be able to draw definite conclusions. In the past we have developed a set of programs to allow running tournament simulations. You can get them from:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/tourn/compare/

The time control variations are a very subjective matter. It would be good to experiment with different time controls and develop a better feel for them. Perhaps the Continuous Tournament could be used as a test bed to give people a chance to try different time controls and give comments about how it felt. However it would be up to Fritzlein to decide if he wants to do this, since he is the organizer of the Continuous Tournament. I would definitely be in favor of doing that and would continue to participate in it if Fritzlein chose to vary the time controls. Who knows it might even make the CT even more interesting.

Title: Re: Consolation Swiss Turnament?
Post by Tuks on Feb 3^rd, 2009, 5:28am

i'de love to see the results of blitz tournament, see if the top players are still top players when they are playing on instinct, if you were to do such a tournament though, there should be more games between the same people(say three instead of 1 because it is so easy to make a silly mistake in a winning position)

Title: Re: Consolation Swiss Turnament?
Post by grey_0x2A on Feb 3^rd, 2009, 4:00pm

I think that Omar is right that I am working at multiple purposes:

1. I think that the standard short time limit should be 60s/5m/100/etc, over
60s/5/75/etc seen in the world championship. Unfortunately upon reflection, I think that we cannot adequately test this until we get the better players back from the WC since it is the better player on better player matches where I have seen the unfortunate slight shortages of time. Trying this formate in any HvH setting will make me happy. I think that short time limit in important because it should be the recommended new player HvH time limit. If I play Fritlzen I am sure that the gap in our performance increases in a 2/3 min per
move situation, and in a 30s and under setting.

2. I disagree with the philosophy of how current metrics for the swiss tournaments where set up, I think. I think the philosophy is find the best player, vs my philosophy of find the best player on that "day", or tournament. Am I wrong on this discrepancy? As someone who can really only hope to be a mid-ranked player, I would rather nothing in a tournament be decided by the rankings. That way only what I do in the games is a factor, my fate is in my hands, how well I do on that "day", not some other "day". (Most of the swiss tournaments I have played in are on day affairs so I think of a tournament as a "day")

3. I like things to have a definite beginning and end. The continuous tournament does not be that need for me.

Title: Re: Consolation Swiss Turnament?
Post by omar on Feb 5^th, 2009, 10:19pm

You can run your own tournament once the top players are freed up. You might need to offer some prizes to get them interested though :-)