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(Message started by: omar on Oct 1st, 2010, 1:16am)
Title: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by omar on Oct 1st, 2010, 1:16am
The schedule for the 2011 Arimaa events is now available.

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/wc/2011/sch.html

For the most part the events will be very similar to last years.

One thing that will be different is with the spectator contest. This year predictions can be made during the game. Of course an earlier prediction wins when there is a tie. It adds a benefit to being present at the game; which hopefully will result in a bigger turn out. But last year 6 of the 16 games were won by exact predictions made before the start of the game, so there will still be some games won by predicting early and not changing the prediction during the game.

Instead of taking a deposit for the penalty and returning it later, this year the penalty fee will be collected later only if necessary (i.e. someone violates the tournament rules).

Another change this year is that I am requesting a $10 contribution towards the prize fund to register for an event. 100% of the prize fund will be distributed as prizes for the players.

I still need to decide if we should change some of the benchmark bots used in the computer championship. For now I just kept the bots that were used last year.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by rbarreira on Oct 1st, 2010, 4:27am
Good to see the schedule, thanks!

Regarding the benchmark bots, it seems that last year Marwin practically did a clean sweep of all the bots in the qualification, so maybe it's good to have some stronger ones to provide more differentiation at the top.

Maybe one or two of the top 2010 blitz/fast bots?
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by Janzert on Oct 3rd, 2010, 8:16pm
Might want to consider that blitz/fast bots are only comparatively stronger against humans, against other bots there isn't going to any distinct advantage just variance from pair to pair.  So the advantage to using the fast time controls is a shorter game time but the disadvantage is that the results may be further from the 2 minute time control used in the championship. Regardless of timecontrol though adding some newer stronger bots to the benchmark would certainly be a good thing.

Janzert
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by rbarreira on Oct 4th, 2010, 3:24am
You're right, the only reason I mentioned fast/blitz bots is that omar would probably not want to have bots playing many (potentially simultaneous) games with the CC bots which can cause a high server load for a few hours.

BTW I think I have seen two problems with the list of benchmark bots:

1- It says OpFor2019Fast (would be fun if we had the 2019 version ;) )
2- GnoBot2009Blitz is in the list, I recall that last year it was eliminated due to some problems running that bot.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by omar on Oct 7th, 2010, 1:35am
Thanks for the input guys. I've added OpFor2010Fast and Marwin2010Blitz to the list. Kept Clueless2009Blitz since Clueless2010Blitz is disabled.

@Janzert, another advantage of the blitz bots is that they move faster and so tend to put less load on the server.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by novacat on Oct 7th, 2010, 2:15am

on 10/01/10 at 01:16:14, omar wrote:
Instead of taking a deposit for the penalty and returning it later, this year the penalty fee will be collected later only if necessary (i.e. someone violates the tournament rules).


This seems difficult to enforce and I expect a person who has violated tournament rules will likely not want to pay the penalty.  While I appreciate the intent of this action, I think it may save you some trouble later if everyone gives a deposit up front.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by omar on Oct 7th, 2010, 7:23am

on 10/07/10 at 02:15:36, novacat wrote:
This seems difficult to enforce and I expect a person who has violated tournament rules will likely not want to pay the penalty.  While I appreciate the intent of this action, I think it may save you some trouble later if everyone gives a deposit up front.


I forgot to mention that the reason I decided to do it this way was because collecting the deposits and returning them was getting to be a bit of a chore. I'll give this a try this year and see how it works out. If someone doesn't pay the penalty then they would not be able to sign up next year.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by Fritzlein on Oct 8th, 2010, 12:16am

on 10/01/10 at 01:16:14, omar wrote:
One thing that will be different is with the spectator contest. This year predictions can be made during the game. Of course an earlier prediction wins when there is a tie. It adds a benefit to being present at the game; which hopefully will result in a bigger turn out. But last year 6 of the 16 games were won by exact predictions made before the start of the game, so there will still be some games won by predicting early and not changing the prediction during the game.

That's an interesting experiment.  By the end of the game, no one will be left predicting too low, and many people will be predicting correctly.  Only an exact answer can win.  The question now is not how close to correct people will need to be, but how far in advance they need to be exactly correct.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by Fritzlein on Oct 8th, 2010, 12:50am

on 10/07/10 at 07:23:58, omar wrote:
I forgot to mention that the reason I decided to do it this way was because collecting the deposits and returning them was getting to be a bit of a chore. I'll give this a try this year and see how it works out. If someone doesn't pay the penalty then they would not be able to sign up next year.

The people who are most likely to forfeit and/or quit are precisely the people who are least likely to be deterred by the threat of not being able to play the following year.  Recall that you originally wanted the World Championship tournament to be free, but you instituted a fee after the debacle of 2004 where five of eighteen entrants didn't show up for their first game.  Four of those five didn't come back for 2005 anyway, so at most one of them could have been deterred by a retroactive penalty.

I totally understand the logic that collecting $10 from everyone and returning $10 to everyone that plays is much more hassle than it is worth to end up with an extra $10 or $20 in your pocket that you might never get otherwise.  The money is small potatoes compared to the time.  But how much time have you really saved, since you are still paying out prize money to every participant anyway?  And in any case the money/time tradeoff is missing the main point.

My main concern is whether an open tournament that anyone can sign up for without any entry fee will result in several people signing up but not showing up.  How will you handle it if someone brand new to the server creates an account, plays six games against the bot ladder, says, "I love Arimaa!!!", signs up for the World Championship two months in advance, and then doesn't play another game between then and the start of the tournament?  If there were a $20 entry fee, you could require payment or remove him from the pairings, but with no entry fee you are obliged to pair him for the first round despite the miniscule probability that he will actually play.

Dropouts are no fun for the players that do show up, and it creates unfairness in strength of schedule and Swiss tiebreakers.  I have a feeling that the 2010 tournament, in which all sixteen players played all five of their games, has given you amnesia about the downside of quitters and no-shows.  It's not about the $10 here or there, it is about the quality of a free tournament versus the quality of a "serious" tournament with an entry fee (refundable or not).

As usual, that's just my $0.02.  We'll see what comes of your experiment to restructure the fees/prizes/penalties.  It's a tradition for me to be skeptical, and for you to try something new anyway.  :)
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by Fritzlein on Oct 8th, 2010, 1:01am

on 10/07/10 at 01:35:11, omar wrote:
Thanks for the input guys. I've added OpFor2010Fast and Marwin2010Blitz to the list. Kept Clueless2009Blitz since Clueless2010Blitz is disabled.

Recall that last year we had eight entrants that aced the bottom four bots.  That means the bottom four provided no discrimination.  Based on that experience, we should at least get rid of the bottom two bots (ArimaaScoreP1 and Loc2007P1), replacing them with two more blitz bots, for example Gnobot2005Blitz and Loc2007Blitz.

Every year we should adjust the pool so that it discriminates throughout the eight best entrants, providing a good seeding from top to bottom.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by Fritzlein on Oct 8th, 2010, 1:06am
It strikes me as odd that people who enter the Postal Mixer are asked to contribute to the prize fund when there are no prizes for the Postal Mixer.  In fact, the three events funded by the prize fund might all be over when people are still registering for the Postal Mixer.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by omar on Oct 9th, 2010, 11:43am

on 10/08/10 at 00:50:06, Fritzlein wrote:
The people who are most likely to forfeit and/or quit are precisely the people who are least likely to be deterred by the threat of not being able to play the following year.  Recall that you originally wanted the World Championship tournament to be free, but you instituted a fee after the debacle of 2004 where five of eighteen entrants didn't show up for their first game.  Four of those five didn't come back for 2005 anyway, so at most one of them could have been deterred by a retroactive penalty.


True, but I don't think losing the small deposit amount was the deterrent that prevented players from quitting in the middle of the tournament. I think the real deterrent was having to send in the deposit amount in the first place. I think that helped make sure more serious players signed up. When it is completely free to sign up and there is no penalty for quitting I think we will see the type of problem we saw in 2004. This year there is the requirement of contributing at least $10 to the prize fund to sign up. So hopefully that will help to make sure more serious players are signing up. A non-serious player could still sign up and quit in the middle of the tournament, but at least $10 will have gone to the prize fund and there is still the penalty the player incurs. So I think it's worth trying this out this year.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by omar on Oct 9th, 2010, 11:46am

on 10/08/10 at 01:01:14, Fritzlein wrote:
Recall that last year we had eight entrants that aced the bottom four bots.  That means the bottom four provided no discrimination.  Based on that experience, we should at least get rid of the bottom two bots (ArimaaScoreP1 and Loc2007P1), replacing them with two more blitz bots, for example Gnobot2005Blitz and Loc2007Blitz.

Every year we should adjust the pool so that it discriminates throughout the eight best entrants, providing a good seeding from top to bottom.


Good idea. Any suggestions for the bots to replace them with.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by rbarreira on Oct 9th, 2010, 12:41pm

on 10/09/10 at 11:46:42, omar wrote:
Good idea. Any suggestions for the bots to replace them with.


Fritz said Gnobot2005Blitz and Loc2007Blitz, which I guess would make sense if we want to avoid having two bots from the same developer (eliminating a lot of potential P1/P2 alternatives).

I was going to say Sharp2008P2, but that one would probably also get swept by all the qualifying bots.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by omar on Oct 9th, 2010, 12:49pm

on 10/08/10 at 01:06:12, Fritzlein wrote:
It strikes me as odd that people who enter the Postal Mixer are asked to contribute to the prize fund when there are no prizes for the Postal Mixer.  In fact, the three events funded by the prize fund might all be over when people are still registering for the Postal Mixer.


I think most people are playing the postal mixer just for fun rather than any prizes. In the past there was no registration fee for this event. This year there is essentially a $10 registration fee. However, I am going to use all of the registration fee towards the prize fund. My hope is that if at least one of the Arimaa events has a larger prize fund it will help attract more serious abstract strategy gamers to Arimaa or at least get them to notice it. Maybe these gamers play for the prestige and not the money, but still having a large prize fund helps to show that the Arimaa community is serious about the world championship event. As more strong players are attracted to it, winning it becomes more and more prestigious.

This year I am going to allow contributions to the prize fund until the end of April which is usually when I distribute the prizes. The registration for the postal mixer end on April 1st.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by omar on Oct 9th, 2010, 1:15pm

on 10/09/10 at 12:41:21, rbarreira wrote:
Fritz said Gnobot2005Blitz and Loc2007Blitz, which I guess would make sense if we want to avoid having two bots from the same developer (eliminating a lot of potential P1/P2 alternatives).

I was going to say Sharp2008P2, but that one would probably also get swept by all the qualifying bots.


Thanks. I don't know how I missed that. I've added  Gnobot2005Blitz and Sharp2010Blitz to the list.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by Fritzlein on Oct 10th, 2010, 8:54am

on 10/09/10 at 11:43:30, omar wrote:
This year there is the requirement of contributing at least $10 to the prize fund to sign up.

Oh, in that case you had better clarify that the $10 is mandatory, not voluntary.  The rules say that all players "should" make a "contribution", two words that both imply that the payment is optional, at least to me.  Perhaps you should change the wording to read "are required to" so that nobody is confused like I was.

Having a mandatory entry fee, even just $10, addresses my concerns about the seriousness of the World Championship tournament.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by Fritzlein on Oct 10th, 2010, 8:58am

on 10/09/10 at 12:49:53, omar wrote:
This year I am going to allow contributions to the prize fund until the end of April which is usually when I distribute the prizes. The registration for the postal mixer end on April 1st.

OK, I don't think anyone will object if the World Championship prize pool grows a bit during or after the tournament.  There is still a slight logistical issue, though.  It appears that you are charging an extra $10 for anyone who doesn't register by December 1.  Does that make sense for the Postal Mixer?  I am imagining someone who doesn't even hear about Arimaa until February, and then is charged $20 to sign up for the Postal Mixer in April due to "late" registration.

I am curious what the turnout for the Postal Mixer will be under the new system.  In the past we have either had entry fees that were all returned to the players as prizes (2005-2009) or no entry fee and no prizes (2010).  We have never had an entry fee with no prizes, as you are proposing for 2011.  I understand why you don't want the hassle of calculating points and distributing the money; we'll see what comes of it.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by rbarreira on Oct 10th, 2010, 10:13am
Am I understanding correctly that the $10 contribution to the prize fund can be added to an event of our choice?
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by omar on Oct 12th, 2010, 9:55am

on 10/10/10 at 08:54:28, Fritzlein wrote:
Oh, in that case you had better clarify that the $10 is mandatory, not voluntary.  The rules say that all players "should" make a "contribution", two words that both imply that the payment is optional, at least to me.  Perhaps you should change the wording to read "are required to" so that nobody is confused like I was.

Having a mandatory entry fee, even just $10, addresses my concerns about the seriousness of the World Championship tournament.


I guess I'm using the word 'should' where I really mean "required to". The current wording is:


Quote:
Interested players should register before the deadline of 6PM EST Saturday January 1st, 2011.
All players should make a contribution of $10 USD to the prize fund. If this would be a hardship for you, you may request to have it waived.


I'll change it to:


Quote:
Interested players must register before the deadline of 6PM EST Saturday January 1st, 2011.
All players are expected to make a contribution of $10 USD to the prize fund. If this would be a hardship for you, you may request to have it waived.


Making a contribution to the prize fund is not required if one can't afford to do it. For example some of the players are students and I don't want this to prevent them from participating if they can't make a contribution.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by omar on Oct 12th, 2010, 10:19am

on 10/10/10 at 08:58:58, Fritzlein wrote:
OK, I don't think anyone will object if the World Championship prize pool grows a bit during or after the tournament.  There is still a slight logistical issue, though.  It appears that you are charging an extra $10 for anyone who doesn't register by December 1.  Does that make sense for the Postal Mixer?  I am imagining someone who doesn't even hear about Arimaa until February, and then is charged $20 to sign up for the Postal Mixer in April due to "late" registration.


Yes, there may be some new players who learn about Arimaa after December and want to join the postal mixer. For these players the registration fee would be higher. But maybe it will help to ensure that only really serious new players join and there would be less chance of unfinished games.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by omar on Oct 12th, 2010, 10:29am

on 10/10/10 at 10:13:37, rbarreira wrote:
Am I understanding correctly that the $10 contribution to the prize fund can be added to an event of our choice?


Yes, you can contribute to the event of your choice and it can be different than the event you are registering for. For example if you are registering for the spectator contest you can contribute all or part of the amount to the world championship. You can even decide how the prize is distributed within the events.

I'll see how this works out. I'm hoping it will work out OK. It would be weird if the spectator contest 1st place prize turned out to be higher than the world championship 1st place prize; or if second place in an event was higher than 1st place.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by omar on Oct 24th, 2010, 10:59am
I updated the 2011 WC page to say:

"The top 8 finishers from this tournament are considered the top human Arimaa players and are expected to defend the Arimaa Challenge if selected to do so."

I am thinking that in future challenge matches I will pick at least 2 defenders from the top 8 finishers and at least one defender from the top 3.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by Fritzlein on Oct 24th, 2010, 11:33pm

on 10/24/10 at 10:59:07, omar wrote:
The top 8 finishers from this tournament are considered the top human Arimaa players and are expected to defend the Arimaa Challenge if selected to do so.

I worry that this rule change will have consequences you don't intend.  For example, I will be on vacation for two weeks this summer.  My vacation doesn't conflict with the Arimaa Challenge dates (yay!) but if it did, your rule change would compel me to drop out of the World Championship even if those dates didn't conflict.  Is that what you want would want?  People who are unwilling or unable to defend the Arimaa Challenge should stay out of the World Championship?

A second unintended consequence of mandating defenders rather than recruiting volunteers is the possibility of getting an unmotivated defense.  Suppose there is someone who made it to the final of the World Championship who has no desire to defend the Arimaa Challenge.  Do you really want your $10,000 protected by someone who is at the table only because you mandated it?  Someone who might not really care about losing because he doesn't really want to be there anyway?

I can imagine that you have had trouble recruiting Challenge Defenders in past years, and that this new rule looks like a neat way of solving your difficulty.  I agree that it is neat, but I am not sure your situation has improved.  On the contrary, I think you may have made it worse.

An alternative way of getting motivated defenders would be to divert some of the World Championship prize fund to the Challenge Defenders.  For example, suppose $180 was diverted from World Championship prize fund, and was instead divided up per game win among the Challenge Defenders.  Suppose also that the World Championship itself didn't give much if anything in prizes, but did give winners the privilege of defending the Arimaa Challenge, with invitations extended in the order of finish in the World Championship.  Then you wouldn't have to rope in unmotivated Challenge Defenders; they would be getting a minimum of $20 per win.  At the same time, taking prize money away from the World Championship won't sabotage its participation; most people would sign up merely to play for pride whether or not there was a prize fund, or at least would have done prior to the non-refundable mandatory donation.

Anyway, my general recipe for getting people to do something they aren't volunteering for fast enough is to provide an incentive rather than a mandate.  In this case I suspect it will get you closer to the type of Challenge Defender you want.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by clojure on Oct 25th, 2010, 7:16am
Fritzlein makes important points. Scheduling might be a reason not to attend WC even without the additional games. Of course, you can extend the period of time a lot, and since bots are willing to play at anytime, it won't be a problem if the organizer is willing to have the game when the defender wants.

But the more problematic part is the psychological one. A player that wouldn't otherwise play the match, is serious risk. This is even more so if he is not known personally, and doesn't get proper social pressure to success.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by omar on Oct 25th, 2010, 11:10pm
Actually I didn't intent for that to be a mandate or for anything to change from the way we've done it before. I mostly just wanted the players to know that they may be asked to defend the challenge if they finish in the top 8. I didn't expect that if someone found it a hardship they would be required to. That's why I said "expected to" instead of "must". But, you're right someone may think it's required and not sign up for the WC if they weren't available to defend the challenge. I'll change it to this:

Quote:
The top 8 finishers from this tournament are considered the top human Arimaa players and may be asked to defend the Arimaa Challenge if willing and available to do so.


I actually contemplated adding a section in the prize fund for challenge defenders this year. But thought that since we've always defended the challenge for the sake of humanity and not money, we should just stick to that tradition.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by megajester on Oct 26th, 2010, 5:43am
If that's what you want it to mean, might your adjustment have gone too much the other way of "maybe"? What about something like this:

The top 8 finishers from this tournament are considered the top human Arimaa players and are the default/preferred/primary candidates to defend the Arimaa Challenge.

Sorry, it's just that translation (that thing I do all day) is basically rephrasing stuff in another language, so I couldn't resist giving my two cents.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by omar on Oct 26th, 2010, 8:17am
In the past I've gone through the top players and ask them one at a time if they would be interested to defend the Arimaa Challenge until I find one that is willing. If for any reason the player is not able to, I move on and ask another player. I don't expect that to change and I think the current wording reflects that pretty closely. But I also like the way you've worded it. I will change it to this:


Quote:
The top 8 finishers from this tournament are considered the top human Arimaa players and are the primary candidates to defend the Arimaa Challenge. They may be asked to help defend the Arimaa Challenge unless it is a hardship for them to do so.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by Fritzlein on Oct 26th, 2010, 6:13pm
It's funny that when you talked about paying entry fees you said "should", which I took to mean, "I would like you to pay but you can still play without paying if you like", whereas when you were talking about defending the Challenge you said, "expected to", which I took to mean, "If you aren't willing to defend the Challenge you won't be allowed to participate in the World Championship."  Thank you for clarifying in each case.


on 10/26/10 at 08:17:35, omar wrote:
In the past I've gone through the top players and ask them one at a time if they would be interested to defend the Arimaa Challenge until I find one that is willing. If for any reason the player is not able to, I move on and ask another player. I don't expect that to change and I think the current wording reflects that pretty closely.

I disagree that your wording reflects what has always been the case.  What is (apparently) new is not the order in which you contact players, but the level of obligation you feel those players have to accept.  In the past you didn't move down the list if a player was "not able to" defend the Challenge, you moved down the list if he simply didn't want to defend the Challenge for whatever reason.  If there is now a greater obligation than there has been until now, (specifically that a player must have a "hardship" to decline defending the Challenge when asked) then you are making a change and shouldn't claim that things are the same as always.

How would you feel about saying that the players will be "invited" to defend the Challenge as opposed to being "asked" to defend the Challenge?  An invitation suggests a privilege with no obligation.  Or maybe you really do feel that top Arimaa players have some sort of moral/social duty to defend the Challenge, in which case you might want to make the grounds of that obligation explicit, i.e. explain why you feel Arimaa players owe it to the community.


on 10/25/10 at 23:10:46, omar wrote:
I actually contemplated adding a section in the prize fund for challenge defenders this year. But thought that since we've always defended the challenge for the sake of humanity and not money, we should just stick to that tradition.

I think the tradition of defending the Challenge for the sake of humanity's honor is more noble that defending it for the sake of money, which is fine by me.  I inferred from the new wording in the rules that you felt a need to ramp up the pressure on people to defend given that humanity's honor hasn't been motivating people enough, which is why I suggested money as an alternative motivation.  I wasn't suggesting that there was a problem with the old way of doing it, only inferring that you thought there was a problem with the old way of doing it.  But I guess that just again raises the question of whether you are changing anything with your new wording.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by omar on Oct 27th, 2010, 11:32pm

Quote:
In the past you didn't move down the list if a player was "not able to" defend the Challenge, you moved down the list if he simply didn't want to defend the Challenge for whatever reason.


True, so I guess you would prefer the earlier wording I had suggested, with perhaps 'asked' changed to 'invited'. Something like this:


Quote:
The top 8 finishers from this tournament are considered the top human Arimaa players and may be invited to defend the Arimaa Challenge if willing and available to do so.


Then to include Megajester's suggestion:


Quote:
The top 8 finishers from this tournament are considered the top human Arimaa players and are the primary candidates to defend the Arimaa Challenge. They may be invited to defend the Arimaa Challenge if willing and available to do so.


Then perhaps change 'available' to 'able' to make it more encompassing. So, how does this sound:


Quote:
The top 8 finishers from this tournament are considered the top human Arimaa players and are the primary candidates to defend the Arimaa Challenge. They may be invited to defend the Arimaa Challenge if willing and able to do so.


Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by Fritzlein on Oct 27th, 2010, 11:52pm

on 10/27/10 at 23:32:57, omar wrote:
So, how does this sound:

The top 8 finishers from this tournament are considered the top human Arimaa players and are the primary candidates to defend the Arimaa Challenge. They may be invited to defend the Arimaa Challenge if willing and able to do so.

That sounds like you are not making a rule change; just codifying what was already the case.  :)  By the way, I'm available to defend the Arimaa Challenge in 2011, if I finish high enough in the World Championship to be invited.
Title: Re: 2011 Arimaa Events Schedule
Post by omar on Oct 28th, 2010, 12:36am
Cool. I've changed it. Thanks for the wording help everyone.


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