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Title: Game 203600: Dolus vs odin73 Post by Dolus on Nov 30th, 2011, 8:07pm I'd like to see how people would evaluate my and odin's play in this postal game. http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=203600 Now in the game's opening, I still haven't learned what to do, so I ended up losing 2 dogs in the opening. I felt crushed by that. What should I have done or changed in my opening to improve my position? What were particularly bad moves I made and why? On step 17s, I was surprised to see him frame my dog instead of capturing it on C6. He could've even take two steps to pull with the camel, and then two steps to free his horse so I wouldn't hostage it, then proceed to capture on his following turn. I expected him to start nickel and diming me and I would end up just falling apart. So I figured I would try to pull his rabbit over and at least try to get something out of the trade. A rabbit's better than nothing at least... That is when he seemed to make a mistake on trying to rotate pieces out of his frame. He left his horse unprotected, so I took it with my camel. The following turn he left his camel unprotected, so I took it too and sacrificed my elephant. I almost took more pieces on the NW corner before I saw that his camel was free pickings. Then the mid-game really starts going. I probably played a little sloppily, allowing a camel hostage, but I fought back aggressively, and also captured that rabbit that I had pulled up. Mostly we were pushing back and forth, but ultimately I think my mistake was trying to attack/control all four traps at once. I spread my pieces too thin to control anything when I should've focused on 2-3 traps and make use of my piece advantage. Because of my sloppy play, I had two horses on the NE, a semi-safe but still semi-hostaged camel in the NW, and a straying elephant running around everywhere. This allowed odin on 28s to guarantee capture of a horse (or worse if I made a bad attempt to save one). I would've been much better off had I just ignored the F6 trap altogether. I figured I would respond by threatening capture to his horse and capturing another rabbit, and then I realized that I could capture both in one turn! So I took it and let him take one of my horses. Another trade I was happy to make. He responded by making the easy capture and threatening my other horse, but not strongly, so I took advantage of this to free my horse with my elephant. I think this was a good play. I was also conscious of my camel in the NW. I wanted to bring him back, but I knew that if I went about it poorly, it would just open him up to an elephant attack and not leave my elephant enough time to come to the rescue. On 31g, again I made the mistake of attacking the F6 trap, which was really stupid because I needed to bring my pieces back, protect my own traps, and with his elephant, I had no chance to do anything at that trap! Then comes 32g, where I didn't know what to do, so I did something incredibly stupid and advanced my rabbits! By making a goal threat, it probably wasn't a bad idea, but I didn't have a strong shot at a goal threat, and it later cost me the game because those forward rabbits limited my mobility immensely in the end game. On 34g-35g, I think I shouldn't have advanced rabbits or moved my cat west. This not only made for a poor attack, but lost my camel, making me slowly lose my advantage! I at least compensated by taking his dog and freeing my horse from the north. I then decided to slowly capture pieces before moving forward, but with my forward rabbits and poor utilization of my pieces, I did not make good use of this... There were many points in the endgame here where I felt like I was losing, despite a materially advantage, because of my position. Where and when did I have a strong position, if I ever did? Later in the game, on 54g, moving my b3 rabbit north a step was a mistake. Essentially it put an opposing rabbit in the well on both flanks of the board that I couldn't get to to pull out and it stuck two of my own rabbits to his one. When it came to 53g, I had a hard time coming up with a move that wouldn't lose me the game. I eventually decided on what I did, thinking it to be possibly the best move I had in me. Then, after 53s, I spent a long time looking at numerous possible moves I had, and what counter-moves could be posed, and determined that unless if odin made a major error, which from his play seemed highly unlikely at this point in the game, I had no move that didn't ultimately resolve in my loss. I settled on the move I did because it was the last one I had come up with and not fully thought through, and figured it would be one of the most likely to prolong the game as much as possible. I had predicted exactly odin's 54s and 55s. Then on 56g, I realized I hadn't considered moving my elephant to the opposite flank. I saw the cat block which odin did, but I figured I might as well try it. I wish I hadn't, cause looking back, my original plan of keeping my elephant in place after the rabbit capture was much better position. Unfortunately I wasn't thinking much when I made the move and had mostly given up, and forgotten that I stopped my analysis there cause I didn't know what silver would do. From that move to the end were mostly forced moves while odin slowly picked off pieces instead of going for the immediate win, which he eventually got. Now that I look back, I greatly regret my 56g move and really wish I knew what would have happened if I would instead done: 56g: Ee3e rd2n rd3w rc3x Ef3w Could this have won the game? Does silver have a winning response to this? Any other comments or suggestions to my game would be greatly appreciated as well. |
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Title: Re: Game 203600: Dolus vs odin73 Post by Dolus on Nov 30th, 2011, 9:05pm I'd like to elaborate on my 54g move as well, as I did spend a lot of time thinking about that one. As far as what I couldn't move, I couldn't move either of my two rabbits on g1 or h2 or I would lose. I could only move my b3 rabbit north one space or it would lead to a loss, and I couldn't move my a3 rabbit or I would lose. This leaves my cat, elephant, d4 rabbit, and g3 rabbit that I could move, as well as the b3 rabbit which I could move 1 square. Now I had to do something with his e3 rabbit or he would've goaled with it (ef4s, re3ss). Moving his rabbit onto the f3 trap was not an option because then it would either move down down and goal, or I'd have to use all of my steps to put my elephant in front of it as well, in which case it would go left, left, down, down and goal. Pulling the rabbit up once wasn't an option as any other moves would still allow it to score. Pulling up twice wasn't an option either cause it would lose to his h2 rabbit (e right down, Rg3 left and captured. I can't goal, then he pulls my rabbit, and two steps with his to goal). I could push the rabbit left twice to capture it, it is a pest after all, and it's what I was thinking of doing initially, but that doesn't work either. That puts my elephant on d3, he does the same goaling maneuver with his h2 rabbit, and again I can't make it over in time to stop him. This means that at least two of my steps are forced; 54g: re3W Ee4s. Now what? If I stop there, he can make the same h2 rabbit goal attack. My elephant has just enough speed to stand in the way, but then that leaves a d3 rabbit to goal. One option is to use my cat on the trap space to freeze his rabbit, but only guarantees capture of my cat when his cat pulls my protecting rabbit, and eventually loses the game as well. Trying to move my d4 rabbit to act as a second protector only opens the way for his cat or elephant to unfreeze his rabbit and goal. So not an option. Basically, I have to move my G3 rabbit. Moving him east gives the elephant what he wants, so I have to go north or west. Let's first look North, because that puts him closer to goal. Now my cat I can't move because that allows goal in the current situation, so let's also move my d3 rabbit north to threaten goal. Now I have three rabbits that can all race to goal if his cat or elephant moves. At first, this looked great for me. But then I realized that this is blocked by rF7 to G7, then he still has three steps to take the g3 square, and win. So I moved my rabbit onto the F3 square instead... Nope, also a losing position from what I can tell. It was just that he decided to take a different maneuver that I even had more turns to play out. Oh well, I'll leave this analysis up for people to read nonetheless. |
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Title: Re: Game 203600: Dolus vs odin73 Post by Boo on Dec 1st, 2011, 6:51am 9g - i would save a dog with Rb3w Dc4-->b3. Gold is in big trouble now. 15g - allowing to pull a lonely piece(dog) into central squares is not acceptable. 18s - Silver should grab an easy win out of this. 20g - oh, I was wrong! It is Gold who should grab an easy win out of this! 21g - i would prefer securing the camel with Mb6-->b3. 23g - i think elephant is better placed on d6 than c7. I would occupy g6 with my Horse. Then move other Horse to e6. This would pin Silver's Horse on f5. Then advance rabbits (cat) to c6 and c5 to unfreeze the elephant to attack hf5. 27g - don't occupy squares between traps (e.g. e6, d6) if you don't already control corner trap squares (e.g. f7, g6). Pieces there are vulnerable to elephant attack. So i would prefer moving Horse to g6 instead of e6. 31g - ok, fine, Horses has finally arrived at g6. And thus Silver elephant is pinned with trap f6 defense. Now it is time to retreat camel home to face the silver dog. Instead of Ce2n Rg1n I would prefer ca5s Ma6s. 32g - hey move the camel home! 33g - yeah, that's it! 34g - ahh, crap, the rabbit on b3 has taken the important square where a camel should sit (and possibly challenge dog from there). ok, no problem, just move cb4n Ma4e Ra3w and next move Rb3-->a3, Mb4-->b3... yeah, well done! 35g - ok now that last effort rabbit attack... it is not dangerous at all. Just don't panic, don't move the Camel to the central square(d4)! cc4n Mb4e Cc2e Cc3s avoids goal in 1 and consolidates your position. 36g - out of a sudden the things got complicated, but still i would try saving my camel with Ef5n ce6w Ef6w (and possibly Rc1e). 37g - oh horse was placed nicely on g6, why retreat it? Ed3n Rf2w with idea Cc4-->b6, and lock silver elephant on a trap of its choice. 40g - i would play Ee3n rd4s Ee4w Hf3w 42g - Ee4-->c5 Rb3w (rabbits should move forward when enemy elephant is pinned to trap. more to that putting pieces, especially rabbits) in the center is dangerous.) 43g - Horse is doing nothing on f2. Move it to its place on g6! ... Oh no Elephant felt itself nicely in the center... if you needed a piece on b3, the cat could do that job i guess. 44g - Lonely horse without the elephant support is no threat. Should have moved elephant back to the center firstly, then advance horse. 47g - ok, nice, elephant is back to the center grabbing a cat by the way, well done 48g - my short-term regroup would be to place cat on b3 (threaten a4), horse on g3 (to avoid being pulled forward), keep elephant on e3-d3, distribute rabbits evenly (1 rabbit per file- a3,b2,d1, e1,g2,h3) to avoid direct goal threats. 49g - a blunder i guess. could still save a horse with Ee4->g4, Hh5. 50g - you are in big trouble now. now it is silver who should attack b3 and g3 with their pieces. 52g - after silver dog attacked your elephant, you are back in the game! though silver has the initiative. the remaining endgame is too difficult for me to calculate ;) |
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Title: Re: Game 203600: Dolus vs odin73 Post by Dolus on Dec 1st, 2011, 9:00am Wow! That's a lot more feedback than I anticipated in one post. Thank you, Boo! That will take me some time to look over and analyze. |
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Title: Re: Game 203600: Dolus vs odin73 Post by Simon on Dec 4th, 2011, 4:48pm Quote:
I can't say for sure, but suspect silver is winning after 56s cc5w Re4e ed4e rh7s Quote:
If you capture on 54g, then after that 54s you can move your Elephant to f2 and would freeze his rabbit if he tried that manouver so you would not immediately lose. You would still be losing though (I think) since if he just pulled the Rabbit your Elephant would be commited to that corner. Quote:
Agreed that this loses, but "rf7 to g7" doesn't make any sense. If he moves the e to g3, which indeed seems to be his best move, he is going to have to push the g4 Rabbit out of the way. Unless he does a push-pull to keep it frozen, in which case he doesn't have a free step for his rabbit anyway. So, if he pushes it logically he should push it east so the rf7 rabbit is already blocking it. Now the reason you'll lose is that you have to move E-> g2 to stop an immediate goal with the h2 rabbit, but at the same time in order to stop an immediate goal with the d3 rabbit you have to keep it frozen with the Elephant (if you freeze it with the cat you allow him to goal with a cat sacrifice). So to prevent goal in one you would be forced to pull the rabbit twice, and he can then pull the g2 rabbit once and bring the elephant to f4 and you don't have an immediate goal and I see no way for you to stop both the h2 and e2 rabbits. Now, the move you actually played on 54g also leads to goal in 3 for silver for the same reason. I think capturing the rabbit holds out the longest and even if you are losing (as you probably are) I haven't actually calculated a forced loss. |
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Title: Re: Game 203600: Dolus vs odin73 Post by Simon on Dec 4th, 2011, 5:49pm Quote:
I think you might be winning after 53g Ef4w Ee4s Rg3n Rd4n edit: looked at it again and saw that 53s Rd5n ee5w rf7e x would be a strong response |
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Title: Re: Game 203600: Dolus vs odin73 Post by rbarreira on Dec 5th, 2011, 4:13am on 11/30/11 at 20:07:22, Dolus wrote:
Here is a possible continuation given by my bot: 53g Ef4w Ee4s Rg3n Rg4n 53s ee5e rf7w re7w rd7s 54g Ee3w re2n re3e rf3x Ed3e 54s ef5w Rg5w Rf5n Rf6x ee5e |
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