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        Arimaa >> Game Analysis >> rforder v bot_OpFor2008P1 game 280480
        
(Message started by: rforder on Nov 1^st, 2013, 10:16pm)

Title: rforder v bot_OpFor2008P1 game 280480
Post by rforder on Nov 1^st, 2013, 10:16pm

The comment page is at http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=280480. I won this game due to serious mistakes committed by OpFor.

My thoughts:

2s: This seems to be a blunder to me. I don't see the purpose in wasting a step with the cat.
3g: I typically don't play this particular sequence of steps, but I think I like it.
4s: I'm not sure why silver chose not to remove its camel from danger.
5s: I think this was also a mistake. This basically cemented the camel hostage.
8g: My thinking here was to attack the F6 trap with my camel and horse while I still had silver's camel hostage.
8s & 9s: It seems like silver is just pointlessly burning steps here.
11g: Here it is clear that my a$$ault on silver's horse is not going as well as I had hoped.
11s: Still, silver continues to waste steps.
12s: Finally, silver responds to my hostilities in the east wing, but it costs him a cat on the next turn.
14g: This is clearly a mistake on my part and I lose a horse over it.
19s: rc4 is clearly a mistake, should have done ec4 to begin with.
22g: I am really interested in hearing some opinions on this. I really had no idea what to do here.

26 - 39: Things get a little crazy. Silver sacrifices its horse for a dog and a cat. Silver has a clear piece advantage at this point. Silver eats a lot of rabbits. Lots of rapid sacrifices here.

30s: This is a disaster for silver. He loses a dog and a camel for his trouble.
32s: I think silver should have advanced ra4 here.
33g: At this point I know I need to end the game quickly because my back row is completely exposed.
33s: Silver fails to exploit my wide open back row and makes no effort to stop me from advancing my rabbit.
35s: Silver is so preoccupied with capturing my camel that he lets me win.

Aside from my obvious mistakes, I'm interested in hearing opinions on where my play could have been better. Thanks :)

Title: Re: rforder v bot_OpFor2008P1 game 280480
Post by dht on Nov 2^nd, 2013, 10:02am

11g I don't understand the final mg5e to threaten the dog over the camel

I played this blow for blow to turn 22 here:

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=280520

Title: Re: rforder v bot_OpFor2008P1 game 280480
Post by rforder on Nov 2^nd, 2013, 10:47am

on 11/02/13 at 10:02:27, dht wrote:

11g I don't understand the final mg5e to threaten the dog over the camel

Good eye. I was feeling pressure from silver's elephant and I wanted to go for the easiest target. My thinking was that the cat on e7 would make it harder to exploit the f6 trap. In retrospect, I think maybe He5 would have been better. Then if silver played ce6 next turn, I could still push the cat off the f6 trap and kill the horse.

on 11/02/13 at 10:02:27, dht wrote:

I played this blow for blow to turn 22 here:

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=280520

Cool, small... state graph! Thanks for your comments :)

Title: Re: rforder v bot_OpFor2008P1 game 280480
Post by Fritzlein on Nov 2^nd, 2013, 11:08am

on 11/01/13 at 22:16:51, rforder wrote:

4s: I'm not sure why silver chose not to remove its camel from danger.

At P1, the bot only looks at all of its moves and evaluates them. It doesn't look ahead to what you can do. Ergo, at the point that the bot was evaluating, its camel wasn't in danger.

Quote:

8g: My thinking here was to attack the F6 trap with my camel and horse while I still had silver's camel hostage.

Exactly. Just make sure to lead with the horse, not the camel.

Quote:

8s & 9s: It seems like silver is just pointlessly burning steps here.

You would be surprised how hard it is to make a bot that doesn't pointlessly burn steps...

Quote:

14g: This is clearly a mistake on my part and I lose a horse over it.

Yep, 14g is the mistake and you didn't have to lose anything with a better 14g. But your loss also points out the danger leaving your horse hanging on the lip of the trap for many moves in a row. On earlier moves when you had steps to spare you might have invested a step putting that horse in a less precarious position. Even hanging on g6 instead of on f5, your horse would have been further from being threatened by the Silver elephant.

17g: You should retake the camel hostage on the b2 square instead of pushing it into the trap.

Quote:

22g: I am really interested in hearing some opinions on this. I really had no idea what to do here.

Your chosen 22g is just fine; your precarious position is due to your previous inaccuracies, but you should still have the upper hand.

23g: Don't give up on your advanced horse. Even just sliding it to c7 takes it out of range of the silver elephant. But 23g Rb3n Rc3w Rb4n Rb5e saves the horse, creates a goal threat, and unfreezes your cat all at the same time.

24g: Taking the dog in c3 is far more important than threatening the silver horse. This is almost as big a tactical blunder as your 14g.

Quote:

30s: This is a disaster for silver. He loses a dog and a camel for his trouble.

Technically 30s only loses a dog, because the camel was lost anyway. A P2 bot would probably not make this mistake.

Quote:

32s: I think silver should have advanced ra4 here.

I agree.

Quote:

33g: At this point I know I need to end the game quickly because my back row is completely exposed.
33s: Silver fails to exploit my wide open back row and makes no effort to stop me from advancing my rabbit.

Yep, if Silver had raced you instead of saving/hunting material, you would have lost the race.

You are obviously learning fast. I encourage you to keep on asking questions. I won't always answer, and indeed often nobody will answer, but you usually teach yourself something simply by going over the game yourself and thinking of things to ask.

(Sorry for modifying after posting... often I read what I write and immediately realize it doesn't make sense.)

Title: Re: rforder v bot_OpFor2008P1 game 280480
Post by clyring on Nov 2^nd, 2013, 1:07pm

on 11/02/13 at 11:08:00, Fritzlein wrote:

Technically 30s only loses a dog, because the camel was lost anyway.

I doubt that Gold has time to win the silver camel with accurate play from Silver. For example, 30s eb6s eb5e rd8s rd7s and 31g mh3w Eh4s mg3w mf3x Eh3w gives up goal-in-3 by way of 31s rd6s rd5s rd4w rc4s 32g Dd1n Dd2n Dd3s rc3e 32s ec5e ed5s rd3w ed4s.

Title: Re: rforder v bot_OpFor2008P1 game 280480
Post by Fritzlein on Nov 2^nd, 2013, 2:12pm

on 11/02/13 at 13:07:24, clyring wrote:

I doubt that Gold has time to win the silver camel with accurate play from silver. For example, 30s eb6s eb5e rd8s rd7s and 31g mh3w Eh4s mg3w mf3x Eh3w gives up goal-in-3 by way of 31s rd6s rd5s rd4w rc4s 32g Dd1n Dd2n Dd3s rc3e 32s ec5e ed5s rd3w ed4s.

Nice find! So actually 30s was way worse than I thought.

Title: Re: rforder v bot_OpFor2008P1 game 280480
Post by rforder on Nov 3^rd, 2013, 9:51pm

Fritz: Thanks for the comprehensive reply. :) I'm trying to take time to go back over all of my games to see where I'm making mistakes. Do you have any other advice for someone who is new to the game who is trying to become proficient?

Title: Re: rforder v bot_OpFor2008P1 game 280480
Post by Fritzlein on Nov 3^rd, 2013, 10:23pm

on 11/03/13 at 21:51:10, rforder wrote:

By playing and reviewing your games you are doing the #1 and #2 most important things. #3 would be read everything that has been formally written about the game including the Arimaa Wikibook, Beginning Arimaa, Arimaa Strategies and Tactics. #4 would be reviewing as much on-site commentary as you can, including game comments, the videos linked from the game room, and recorded commentary from past World Championships. It's pretty cool in my book that Arimaa has been around long enough that you have a lot of resources before you are stuck with just #1 and #2.