Arimaa Forum - Print Page


    
      
        Arimaa Forum
        (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi)
      

        Arimaa >> Site Discussion >> Two small feature requests
        
(Message started by: Fritzlein on Jun 14^th, 2005, 5:03pm)

Title: Two small feature requests
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 14^th, 2005, 5:03pm

(1) Given how many people nowadays can consistently beat every bot, I find my interest in human vs. bot games temporarily on the wane. When I log in, the first thing I want to know is what human vs. human games have been played recently. Would you mind adding a link to "Recent Human Games" under the "Recent Games" and "Commented Games" links?

(2) There is a modicum of social awkwardness in inviting someone to a game, and more in refusing an invitation. It would ease this slightly to have a flag that each player could set to either "Not interested in playing a human right now" or "Actively seeking a game against a human right now". This flag could display next to the names of all logged-in players in the lobby. Does this sound like a good idea?

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by PMertens on Jun 14^th, 2005, 6:21pm

I totally agree with (1)
I partly agree with (2)

Even though there is no feature for telling "leave me alone - I dont wanna play humans", there is allready a (mostly unused) feature for telling others that you are actively seeking:

<Start Game>

But I agree that a statusflag might be the more powerful solution.
You dont always log out when you leave the computer for a while and some people have their popup-blocker on - so there could be a status for that as well :-)

Maybe someone writes a IM-like software for Arimaa one day ... that would be rather cool :-)

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 15^th, 2005, 8:41am

on 06/14/05 at 18:21:59, PMertens wrote:

there is allready a (mostly unused) feature for telling others that you are actively seeking:

<Start Game>

That's a good point, thanks for reminding me. In the future I will remember to use this feature. On the other hand, starting a game has the drawback (or advantage?) that it limits the game to a specific time control. So I could see wanting both features.

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by omar on Jun 15^th, 2005, 5:55pm

Great suggestions; shouldn't be too hard to do.

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by Fritzlein on Jun 15^th, 2005, 6:42pm

Thanks for including the Human Games link. 24-hour turnaround: what amazing service!

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by omar on Jun 15^th, 2005, 6:44pm

Just did the Human Games feature. Will do the 'Seeking Games' feature soon.

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by omar on Jun 15^th, 2005, 6:47pm

on 06/15/05 at 18:42:57, Fritzlein wrote:

Thanks for including the Human Games link. 24-hour turnaround: what amazing service!

Well some features are easier to implement than others and I tend to use the "shortest job first" scheduling algorithm :-)

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by PMertens on Jun 16^th, 2005, 8:45am

you are fast :D

How about a little public info about what it is and how to use :-)

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by 99of9 on Jun 16^th, 2005, 8:50am

Nice ideas Fritz. Nice job Omar - both look good.

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by omar on Jun 16^th, 2005, 12:00pm

I've also added the "Invite Me" feature now.

A small i icon appears next to the usernames of the members seeking a human game. Clicking on it opens
the invite window.

Clicking on the icon next to your own name opens up the "Invite Me Status" window from where you can turn on or off the icon that appears next to your name for others.

Even if you have not turned on the invite me icon, others can still invite you. This is because we sometimes use the invite feature as a messaging system.

I considered automatically turning off the invite me icon if a player gets busy with an iteractive game, but then thought that someone might still want it on. So for now you have to turn it off yourself if you start a game and don't want to be invited anymore.

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by PMertens on Jun 16^th, 2005, 1:20pm

how about a warning on the invitation page

"Do you really wanna invite him while he is allready playing ?"

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by 99of9 on Jun 17^th, 2005, 1:38am

on 06/17/05 at 00:37:38, Arimanator wrote:

Now, one other thing, when Fritzlein made his requests, nobody told him that "he had no idea of the complexity involved" or "that he shouldn't bother Omar when he has bigger fish to fry"..etc..

That's the usual answer I get no matter what I suggest

Since the first of these two "quotes" appears to be directed at me, I will tell you why I didn't reply in a similar way to Fritz. [By the way, since my posts are still present on the messageboard, you can check to see whether my original words have been exaggerated here: [url]http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=talk;action=display;num=1113301653;start=1#1[/url]

But personally I'd prefer not to go through this debate again, especially since I already apologized for hurting your feelings the first time!

Anyway, here's my answer, it's quite simple.

In my estimation Fritz's suggestions were significantly easier to implement (and perhaps would be more frequently used, but that is irrelevant). I did not tell him that " I think you underestimate how difficult it would be for Omar to automate this.", because I didn't think he had.

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by 99of9 on Jun 17^th, 2005, 2:47am

on 06/17/05 at 01:57:51, Arimanator wrote:

Besides I don't really remember if you made that second suggestion about not bothering Omar I mean and if you did that was an unfortunate coincidence and certainly not something particularly aimed at you.

As far as I know I am the only one who received your suggestion in a manner similar to your first quote - so I figured that one was addressing me especially. No, I don't think I've said anything like that second one. Maybe I missed it, but the only person I remember saying anything like that to you is Omar ("There are still a lot of more urgent changes I need to make")... but I'm sure you're not mad at him for that! :-)

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by 99of9 on Jun 17^th, 2005, 6:28am

on 06/17/05 at 03:12:38, Arimanator wrote:

Excuse me for pointing this out but that's not the first time you do something like that, using words that I HEAVILY emphasized as being given as an example of something more general to try to turn individuals against me when it's not the whole crowd.

Don't worry, I'm not trying to turn people against you - no one really believes you are mad at omar!! The point I was making is that what you give as examples of how you feel your suggestions are treated are either:
a) slightly exaggerated and apologized for already anyway
or
b) not resembling anything I recall anyone saying to you (and the nearest example that I can find is a totally normal comment that no one would be mad at)

It just seems to me that you're too suspicious, that you're worried we're giving favouritism to Fritz, that you're generally continuing with the paranoia that started arguments in the first place.

You might be interested to note that I have voiced my support for as many of your suggestions in the last few days as I have Fritz's (one each ;-)) - namely your suggestion that it would be interesting to see how a game goes when bot engines play alternate moves.

Now okay, I haven't implemented it yet... but you haven't given me long! ;-) I think implementation comes down to a bit of randomness, how long things take (how complex they are ;-)), and how keen people are to do it. There are many factors, and I don't think you should feel biased if a few of your suggestions have fallen by the wayside. Concentrate on coming up with good ideas, and I'm sure one of them will pay off sooner or later. (Or - as you suggested in the Simul Games case - wait until Omar goes open source and do the implementation yourself.)

Quote:

Since you evoked the Bible earlier (or religion). Isn't there something in it against mob mentality?

"Let him who is without sin..." You probably know it better than me, what is the exact quote by the way?

"If any of you is without sin, let him be the first to thow a stone at her" (John 8:7 NIV), although it is often paraphrased the way you quote it. My understanding is that it's more about the Pharisees failing to recognise their own rebellious position before God and hence their need for God's mercy.

Quote:

Anyway I certainly wasn't accusing Omar of anything and I just give that as a type of answers I received.

Don't worry - I never thought you were.

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by 99of9 on Jun 17^th, 2005, 6:37am

on 06/17/05 at 04:08:12, Arimanator wrote:

Besides this whole discussion is just another example of what I was complaining about, no matter what I say it'll be turned against me and multiplied by ten in the process.

I think it's mainly your complaints that get multiplied by 10 (as people try to defend themselves and it spirals into arguments). Sorry to be simplistic, but I'd suggest complaining less often. Generally your positive and contributory comments on forums and games are well recieved as far as I can see (perhaps Paul is an exception to that since your big argument).

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by 99of9 on Jun 17^th, 2005, 8:27am

on 06/17/05 at 07:46:49, Arimanator wrote:

... the possibility of playing games that wouldn't go on record...

It would simply give the possibility of inhibiting the saving process at the end of the game and it may help promote the game by making some people otherwise daunted by it, play freely until they feel like they can go public with it.

I was always a little irked that unrated games show up in the player's win/loss statistics. Especially since I enjoy the odd game of botbashing or Lose-Arimaa.

But then again, at least it means it's possible to find and review the games long after they're played.

Quote:

... Bible is polysemic ...

Yes I agree that many verses have lots of layers of meaning, and this may well be one of them - it certainly stopped the religious hierarchy of the time in their tracks!

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by RonWeasley on Jun 17^th, 2005, 8:51am

Quote:

"If any of you is without sin, let him be the first to thow a stone at her" (John 8:7 NIV),

I've always hated this quote for two reasons. First, it says that if you think you are a good person, do this bad thing. To me, that's sociopathic logic with the aim of exploitive manipulation. Second, it reinforces a punishment-oriented view of society that I'd rather see modern civilization overcome. Perhaps I'm not thinking about it as it was intended. So, what does this have to do with arimaa? Not very much. Sorry to waste your time.

Quote:

the possibility of playing games that wouldn't go on record ( unrated games of course) so that if people are bothered by others watching over their shoulder they could play nevertheless.

Because of my own pitiful system limitations and family responsibilities, I can't play very much. However, I can watch others play even through the browser crashes. Mostly I like to guess the next move and I'm happiest when the player makes a better move than I would have. This happens a lot. I also like watching new players improve. So it would be bad for me personally to hide games.

Perhaps we need to remind our self-conscious side that people don't hold bad moves against us. Those who do are making a mistake.

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by 99of9 on Jun 17^th, 2005, 9:26am

on 06/17/05 at 08:51:40, RonWeasley wrote:

First, it says that if you think you are a good person, do this bad thing.

I think the point is that nobody is a sinless person. All the Pharisees realised this when they thought about themselves. Jesus was the only person in the position to claim this. (By the way, he chose not to throw a stone either - instead telling her to go and stop sinning.)

Quote:

Second, it reinforces a punishment-oriented view of society that I'd rather see modern civilization overcome.

No no, in context it seems to me that it means exactly the opposite. The Pharisees were of the strong punishment school (especially against wayward women - but they weren't too keen on punishing their own wrongdoing!). Anyway, they were about to stone her, and wanted Jesus' backing (thinking this would put him in a tight position since he should affirm Moses' law...) After that one sentence, they realise their own lowly position, and walk away. I think this is against taking human vengeance/punishment (and means that the judgement is left to God, which you may still disagree with Ron). To be honest I'm quite bemused that some Christians support the death penalty.

Quote:

Perhaps we need to remind our self-conscious side that people don't hold bad moves against us. Those who do are making a mistake.

I agree. But if it helps self-conscious people enjoy arimaa more, I'm for it.

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by naveed on Jun 17^th, 2005, 3:54pm

on 06/16/05 at 12:00:48, omar wrote:

I've also added the "Invite Me" feature now.

I think the default when someone logs in should be to turn on the invite icon. If someone doesnt want that, they can turn it off as soon as they login. This will probably allow more human human games.

Quote:

I considered automatically turning off the invite me icon if a player gets busy with an iteractive game, but then thought that someone might still want it on. So for now you have to turn it off yourself if you start a game and don't want to be invited anymore.

Also when I start a game the system should automatically turn off the invite icon and set it back on after the game is over (if it was on before). I can turn it off at this point if I don't want to play more games.

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by omar on Jun 28^th, 2005, 6:23am

on 06/17/05 at 15:54:28, naveed wrote:

It does seem like the number of human-human games have gone down a bit since I added the invite status icon. I'll try out this suggestion to see if it helps.

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by RonWeasley on Jun 28^th, 2005, 1:32pm

The invite feature is a great idea. Thanx to Fritzlein for conceiving it and Omar for implementing it. Omar, you may want to consider having this flag be part of an account's profile. The default for a new account would be ON. Assuming most players log in with a consistent invite disposition, the need to change it would be minimized.

I realize this mostly affects only me. Please don't be concerned. If the feature stays the way it is now, I can easily live with it.

Title: Re: Two small feature requests
Post by Fritzlein on Jul 9^th, 2005, 7:59am

on 06/28/05 at 06:23:27, omar wrote:

It does seem like the number of human-human games have gone down a bit since I added the invite status icon. I'll try out this suggestion to see if it helps.

I doubt the recent decline in the number of human-human games has anything to do with the invite icon. I know that real-world time commitments have interfered with my ability to play, and I expect other people are equally affected for unpredictable duration. Also two sources of human-human games, namely the postal tournament and the lightning tournament, have petered out. Also the upsurge in botbashing interest may have drawn attention away from human-human games. Also the feuding between PMertens and Arimanator may have distracted them from trying to win Player of the Month.

Don't worry: the cycle will turn around again. The decline this summer isn't as serious as the decline last summer, and there was a huge rebound from that decline when the championship cycles approached. Furthermore we now have a larger part-time playing pool of humans, more permanent bots available, better server features, and more ways of participating. The sport of Arimaa may pause for breath, but I'm confident it will soon leap to new hieghts.