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        Arimaa >> Site Discussion >> Eliminating Rubbish Games
        
(Message started by: 99of9 on Sep 23^rd, 2004, 11:42am)

Title: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by 99of9 on Sep 23^rd, 2004, 11:42am

Hi Omar,

Thanks for changing the sportsmanship page, I think your change makes it much more palatable.

Next on my suggestions list is this:
Unlimited Time games that never die seem to be a continual problem. I know you have some kind of script for removing these, but it doesn't seem to work on all games (and it once seemed to clean up one of our real games!) Anyway, how about changing the "No Time Limit" game type to "Move within 30 days". I think anyone who seriously wants to play a game is going to be able to complete each move in under 30 days. After all, this kind of game may well still take 10 years to play out to the end!

Also I'd recommend "No guest is allowed to set up a postal table"... and perhaps "no player with rating uncertainty of 100 is allowed to set up a postal table". Notice that Guest1555 and Guest1556 have managed to get a table together, but they didn't bother starting the game. This means that no matter what the clock is set to, that game might never expire.

I think guests get scared that a clock might rush them, especially since they're new to the game. They don't realise that 3 min per move is plenty. So I'd suggest just not giving them the postal option - to guide their choice to a more appropriate one!

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by clauchau on Sep 23^rd, 2004, 12:49pm

Hmm, 30 days is good, but I'd keep offering it under a simple name to beginners. I remember 3 minutes were short when I began playing against Omar! And I couldn't figure out the time system. Plus, offering friendly games without any hint of a consideration of time seem a real good thing to me, don't rule them out please.

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by Fritzlein on Oct 24^th, 2004, 1:45pm

I think the 30-day time limit is a good idea, too. One can imagine there would be players who don't want the time pressure of having to move once every month, but that doesn't mean this server has to host such games, especially if 99% of the time such games are abandoned clutter.

In fact, I think it would be a good idea to impose a 30-day time limit retroactively on current "no time limit" games which aren't finishing up. I can just imagine five years from now there will still be games which haven't had a move since I became an active player. Twenty years from now we will have games where one or both of the players are dead, but we're not sure what happened to them so we keep the games around "just in case". :-)

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by omar on Oct 27^th, 2004, 4:10pm

The clean up deamon does not remove no time limit games. They can go on indefinitely.

I can always remove the lingering games manually.

I've changed it so that new players cannot create or join no time limit games until they have played at least 10 games before.

One nice feature of no time limit games is that you can do unlimited take backs (all the way to the start of the game). This is a good feature when tutoring someone new.

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by omar on Oct 27^th, 2004, 4:25pm

Actually I have to setup a deamon to remind postal game players about their moves.

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by Fritzlein on Oct 29^th, 2004, 10:46am

As long as removing the abandoned games by hand doesn't bother you, I can see the merit in allowing untimed games. I can also see the merit in sending e-mail reminders so that the games keep going and/or are cleaned up by the participants themselves.

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 20^th, 2005, 9:56am

on 10/27/04 at 16:10:35, omar wrote:

I've changed it so that new players cannot create or join no time limit games until they have played at least 10 games before.

Er, this feature isn't working quite as intended. I invited Elmo to a no-time-limt game, and the server created the game just fine, but since Elmo can't sit down, the game can't start, and neither of us can resign, so in fact the current limitation is not preventing us from making a mess, just preventing us from cleaning it up!

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by RonWeasley on Feb 20^th, 2005, 2:15pm

Elmo can't sit down because he has somebody's arm stuck up into his backside?

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 21^st, 2005, 8:18am

Heh, not a puppet. Elmo is my wife.

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by omar on Mar 3^rd, 2005, 2:20pm

Any suggestions. Im thinking maybe reducing the required games to 2 might work better.

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 3^rd, 2005, 2:59pm

I guess my favorite suggestion is not to have any games with no time control. But in the mean time, if you would just remove the junk game between Elmo and myself (an attempt to chat) which we can't remove ourselves because she can't sit down and I can't resign until she starts the game.

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by omar on Mar 3^rd, 2005, 6:30pm

The no time control games are really good for experimenting, because they allow unlimited takebacks.

I've removed the game between you and Elmo.

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by Fritzlein on Mar 3^rd, 2005, 8:12pm

Thanks for removing that game!

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by 99of9 on Feb 2^nd, 2007, 5:00pm

on 09/23/04 at 11:42:34, 99of9 wrote:

Unlimited Time games that never die seem to be a continual problem. I know you have some kind of script for removing these, but it doesn't seem to work on all games (and it once seemed to clean up one of our real games!) Anyway, how about changing the "No Time Limit" game type to "Move within 30 days". I think anyone who seriously wants to play a game is going to be able to complete each move in under 30 days. After all, this kind of game may well still take 10 years to play out to the end!

I'd like to restate this suggestion. There is now a postal game in which the latest move has taken over 800 days. There are also numerous postals which never got started but are still displayed.

After re-reading the thread, I agree with you that it's a nice thing to be allowed to do takebacks, but I still think a 30 day move limit would be nice. (Although I accept clauchau's point that it should still be called unlimited).

If you still want to remove games manually, you've got a bit of a backlog requiring attention some time.

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 3^rd, 2007, 10:02am

There are currently 59 postal games listed, and 17 of them are junk. Those 17 will never be played. They are hanging around either because there is no time limit, or because there is a time limit, but the first move of the game was never made, so the clock never started.

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by RonWeasley on Feb 3^rd, 2007, 3:23pm

I hope none of those 17 are mine!

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by IdahoEv on Feb 3^rd, 2007, 4:39pm

Writing a script to remove these would be a pretty easy task for me on the development server, but I wouldn't want to implement a policy for game removal unless that policy had Omar's blessing.

What should be the suggested rules for removing the games? Perhaps something simple like remove any game where no move has been submitted for three months?

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 3^rd, 2007, 8:36pm

on 02/03/07 at 15:23:24, RonWeasley wrote:

I hope none of those 17 are mine!

If those games were yours, they would show up in your current games. That's part of what makes the junk games a nuisance. You broadcast an invitation to play 1d/14d/100/14d/0, and someone who is just finding his way around the gameroom clicks on the "sit" link. Then they leave and never come back, while you have the game displaying in your current games forever. Not that this happened to me, but it is happening to some people.

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 3^rd, 2007, 8:48pm

on 02/03/07 at 16:39:05, IdahoEv wrote:

Writing a script to remove these would be a pretty easy task for me on the development server, but I wouldn't want to implement a policy for game removal unless that policy had Omar's blessing.

Actually, Omar supposedly already has a script that runs periodically to remove games that have never started. It just isn't working. Maybe you can find that script and figure out what is wrong with it.

As for games that have started but haven't had a move in ages, which are by definition "no time limit" games, I think Omar's policy is that he will host those forever. Omar and clauchau played game number 16798 over the course of 1 year, 177 days, 19 hours, 45 minutes, and 34 seconds. He wants you to have that opportunity too. ;)

Title: Re: Eliminating Rubbish Games
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 3^rd, 2007, 9:05pm

And while I've got up my query for the longest game ever, I can't resist reporting that the shortest game ever, between two humans, ending in goal or immobilization, rated, was game number 30955 between chessandgo and lelievre. 7 minutes, 22 seconds. For chess players our notion of "blitz" is a walk in the park.