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        Arimaa >> Site Discussion >> Unrating game problems
        
(Message started by: tremor on Feb 1^st, 2007, 5:28am)

Title: Unrating game problems
Post by tremor on Feb 1^st, 2007, 5:28am

After being beat by Zombie I wanted to give Bomb2005CC a chance as well.

Unfortunatly I lost connection (it happens from time to time) probably because of server load as I have high quality network connection.

So I tried to unrate game 47031. First I was asked to give a reason. I entered 'timeout', but anyway got message, that I had to give a reason - probably there's a minimal message length constraint (it wasn't explained). After giving longer explanation possibility of unrating was checked. I wasn't allowed to unrate the game though no piece was trapped at either side.
So my question is: why?

Title: Re: Unrating game problems
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 1^st, 2007, 9:52pm

That's a very good question. I can think of two reasons. First, if you lose on time when you are losing by a rabbit on the board in BombP2's opinion, then you can't unrate the game. In a materially even position, like your game was, Bomb will sometimes think it is ahead by more than a rabbit, for example if it has a camel hostage. BombP2 looks ahead 2 ply, so it should see that you are able to free your camel hostage on the first ply, but then maybe BombP2 thinks it can get the hostage back on the second ply, and it cuts off evaluation there. In my opinion your position was slightly worse when you timed out, but I don't think you were worse by a whole rabbit, so if this is reason you can't unrate the game, it involves a mistaken evaluation by BombP2.

The second possibility is that Omar has disallowed unrating the qualifying games. He has certainly disallowed playing Zombie or Bomb2005CC in unrated mode in the first place, and maybe he thought ahead and disallowed unrating the games after the fact.

In any case, the one bright spot is that you can play each bot one more time within the next week to get your revenge.

Title: Re: Unrating game problems
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 2^nd, 2007, 5:33pm

Well, the second possibility has been ruled out. OLTI was able to unrate game 47075 against Zombie after timing out. Therefore BombP2 must have thought you were losing by more than a rabbit, and prevented you.

Title: Re: Unrating game problems
Post by 99of9 on Feb 2^nd, 2007, 7:47pm

on 02/02/07 at 17:33:05, Fritzlein wrote:

Therefore BombP2 must have thought you were losing by more than a rabbit, and prevented you.

Or there is another reason you haven't thought of ;-). Sorry to be a pedant...

Title: Re: Unrating game problems
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 2^nd, 2007, 9:02pm

on 02/02/07 at 19:47:14, 99of9 wrote:

Or there is another reason you haven't thought of ;-). Sorry to be a pedant...

Did you have some other reason in mind? One possibility I didn't think of is that tremor played another game before trying to unrate.

Title: Re: Unrating game problems
Post by 99of9 on Feb 2^nd, 2007, 9:10pm

No, nothing in particular, but I have a pet peeve about people making absolute statements that fail to account for the fallibility of the human imagination.

Title: Re: Unrating game problems
Post by tremor on Feb 3^rd, 2007, 6:48am

I like to know what's going on behind the scenes plus I thought that I should be able to unrate the game.
Nevermind the rating - I know I'm not a good player.

Title: Re: Unrating game problems
Post by IdahoEv on Feb 3^rd, 2007, 4:41pm

It does seem like the system should explain why when it blocks you from using the feature. Then we would know whether it was a bug or an application of the bomb rule, or what.

Title: Re: Unrating game problems
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 3^rd, 2007, 8:51pm

on 02/02/07 at 21:10:05, 99of9 wrote:

No, nothing in particular, but I have a pet peeve about people making absolute statements that fail to account for the fallibility of the human imagination.

Actually I feel much the same way. When you catch me making an absolute statement, it is usually because I am too lazy to add qualifiers about the fallibility of my experience/logic/imagination, and not because I am 100% sure of myself.

Title: Re: Unrating game problems
Post by omar on Feb 14^th, 2007, 8:34am

It was either because you or the bot had played another game afterwards; or because Bomb2005P2 thought the position was not in your favor.

If you received a message like:
Please Wait, The game is being checked to see if it can be unrated.
followed by:
Sorry this game cannot be unrated.
then it was because Bomb thought your score was less than -1 (a rabbit behind).

Otherwise you should see a message like:
bot_Bomb2005CC has already played a game after this.

Title: Re: Unrating game problems
Post by omar on Feb 14^th, 2007, 8:36am

I've changed it now so that if the score is the reason for not being allowed to unrate the game, a more clear message is given:

Sorry this game cannot be unrated; since you were not in a good position (your position score was $sc).

Title: Re: Unrating game problems
Post by tremor on Feb 14^th, 2007, 11:56am

on 02/14/07 at 08:34:02, omar wrote:

It was either because you or the bot had played another game afterwards; or because Bomb2005P2 thought the position was not in your favor.

It was the second case. It's surprising a little, that at such early stage of the game it decided that I'm losing too much to unrate the game.

Anyway such checking is a great idea.

Title: Re: Unrating game problems
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 14^th, 2007, 12:28pm

on 02/14/07 at 11:56:05, tremor wrote:

It's surprising a little, that at such early stage of the game it decided that I'm losing too much to unrate the game.

You are probably most vulnerable to this problem when you are actually playing some version of Bomb. If you were playing Zombie when you timed out, and Zombie evaluated your position at -1 when it appeared to you to be even, then there would be a fair chance Bomb would disagree with Zombie and say you were close enough to unrate the game. But when your opponent is Bomb, then the position is more likely to be something Bomb has played towards achieving, so the referee (Bomb) is more likely to think you are losing.