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        Arimaa >> Site Discussion >> Handicap matches
        
(Message started by: mistre on Apr 6th, 2008, 1:52pm)
Title: Handicap matches
Post by mistre on Apr 6th, 2008, 1:52pm
With a renewed interest in handicap matches, I was thinking of a potential improvement to the user interface.

What if you were given the option of removing pieces at the set-up phase instead of having to sacrifice pieces into the traps to remove them?  Maybe by double-clicking on the pieces they would disappear. Double-clicking on an empty space would bring them back.  Could something like that be done?

As has been mentioned in recent game comments, games that involve sacrificing pieces over multiple turns still may effect how an opponent plays because they don't know that you are making future sacrifices.  If the pieces were not on the board during the beginning of the game, this would fix that issue.
Title: Re: Handicap matches
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 6th, 2008, 5:54pm
If a feature existed to allow setup with less than the full set of pieces, another use would be to allow mismatched forces out of the gate, for example MHR for HHC, which (I think) chessandgo and I feel differently about.
Title: Re: Handicap matches
Post by aaaa on Apr 6th, 2008, 6:48pm
Yes, I would also like to see the possibility of (obviously unrated) custom games, but that also includes the ability to configure a board with no restrictions at all, where every square (in non-capture mode) can have any piece on it.
Title: Re: Handicap matches
Post by omar on Apr 8th, 2008, 3:31pm

on 04/06/08 at 13:52:29, mistre wrote:
With a renewed interest in handicap matches, I was thinking of a potential improvement to the user interface.

What if you were given the option of removing pieces at the set-up phase instead of having to sacrifice pieces into the traps to remove them?  Maybe by double-clicking on the pieces they would disappear. Double-clicking on an empty space would bring them back.  Could something like that be done?

As has been mentioned in recent game comments, games that involve sacrificing pieces over multiple turns still may effect how an opponent plays because they don't know that you are making future sacrifices.  If the pieces were not on the board during the beginning of the game, this would fix that issue.


This should be possible with the new game client. I would  need to allow using the 'Skip Steps' button during the setup moves. On the server side I would need to allow incomplete setups; perhaps limited to only unrated games.
Title: Re: Handicap matches
Post by omar on Apr 8th, 2008, 3:35pm

on 04/06/08 at 18:48:52, aaaa wrote:
Yes, I would also like to see the possibility of (obviously unrated) custom games, but that also includes the ability to configure a board with no restrictions at all, where every square (in non-capture mode) can have any piece on it.


The new game client has a compose mode that allows this, but it was intended for creating puzzles and not for playing.

http://arimaa.com/arimaa/puzzles/compose.html
Title: Re: Handicap matches
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 8th, 2008, 6:31pm

on 04/08/08 at 15:31:21, omar wrote:
This should be possible with the new game client. I would  need to allow using the 'Skip Steps' button during the setup moves. On the server side I would need to allow incomplete setups; perhaps limited to only unrated games.

If this the changes in client and server are fairly simple, it seems like you could get a lot of bang for your buck given the present interest in material handicap games.

I am not so sure about mandating that the games be unrated, though.  I could imagine two humans playing a rated game at equal handicap.  In fact, I remember proposing that if Arimaa were too defensive, then the variant where each side starts missing HDC would loosen things up.  Starting without those three pieces on both sides would be a kind of "accelerated Arimaa", putting the players directly into a middlegame without all the fuss of having to go through the opening.  It seems that this and other uses of allowing pieces to be left off during setup could be legitimately rated games.

But anyway, if the idea of allowing rated games like this is too controversial, it would be a swell feature even if the games were automatically unrated.
Title: Re: Handicap matches
Post by chessandgo on Apr 9th, 2008, 2:18am

on 04/08/08 at 15:31:21, omar wrote:
This should be possible with the new game client. I would  need to allow using the 'Skip Steps' button during the setup moves. On the server side I would need to allow incomplete setups; perhaps limited to only unrated games.


It would be extemely nice, I'm as excited as the others about playing games with a starting uneven trade.
Title: Re: Handicap matches
Post by omar on Apr 11th, 2008, 1:09am
The problem with allowing such games to be rated is that they would get mixed in with the regular rated games. When I make this change I should probably also add a 'handicap' field to the games table, so we could filter out these games if we wanted to when computing some statistics. Then I would have no problem with allowing handicap games to also be rated.
Title: Re: Handicap matches
Post by 99of9 on Apr 11th, 2008, 1:59am
Yes, we definitely need a field in the game database.  Without it the handicap games may also mess up any program that tries to mine the database for statistical information, because even reading in a handicap game could be problematic for some mining programs.
Title: Re: Handicap matches
Post by Arimabuff on Apr 11th, 2008, 7:19am

on 04/11/08 at 01:09:59, omar wrote:
...Then I would have no problem with allowing handicap games to also be rated.

I am not sure that that would be a good idea. Handicap play would allow a player to beat a much stronger opponent. Wouldn't that be unfair to rate the game as if the playfield were even?
Title: Re: Handicap matches
Post by Fritzlein on Apr 11th, 2008, 11:45am

on 04/11/08 at 01:09:59, omar wrote:
The problem with allowing such games to be rated is that they would get mixed in with the regular rated games. When I make this change I should probably also add a 'handicap' field to the games table, so we could filter out these games if we wanted to when computing some statistics. Then I would have no problem with allowing handicap games to also be rated.

I like the idea of a handicap flag.  That allows the data to be filtered for finding handicap games as well as for excluding them.  It also solves the problem of allowing the games to be rated.  Why not let both players agree to rate the game if they both want to?  I am still looking forward to my rated handicap match against chessandgo with MHR vs. HHC handicap.
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/comments.cgi?gid=56217

Anyway we have already seen plenty of examples of people messing up the game room ratings.  (Unfortunately, that includes my recent bot blitz simuls.  I don't care for myself that my rating was beaten down, but I didn't consider that I was also messing up the seeding of the Postal Tournament and messing up ratings of the blitz bots themselves.  :-[)  If there is any occasion so serious that we can't afford to have inaccurate ratings (e.g. seeding the 2009 World Championship) then using the game room ratings is out of the question in any case.  When we design a custom system to meet a special need, we can exclude handicap games from that system at that time by filtering on the handicap flag as well as the rated flag.


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