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        Arimaa >> Site Discussion >> Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
        
(Message started by: mistre on Aug 20^th, 2008, 9:48am)

Title: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by mistre on Aug 20^th, 2008, 9:48am

All of the Bot_Locs are gone from the bot ladder. I don't know if that was a conscious decision or there is something wrong.

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by Fritzlein on Aug 20^th, 2008, 11:26am

I hope that they are being replaced by bot_Loc2008. The old versions were always a pain because Loc could get despondent and time out. The new version (supposedly) gets despondent and resigns instead. That will prevent considerable confusion and annoyance to newcomers working up the ladder, because a win by time doesn't count for the ladder, but a win by resignation does (should).

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by aaaa on Aug 20^th, 2008, 11:56am

Relevant thread (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=talk;action=display;num=1205897638)

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by Tuks on Aug 20^th, 2008, 1:20pm

wow, how did i miss that !

i did notice how few blitz bots there were and now i know why, two are gone ;D

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by BlackKnight on Aug 20^th, 2008, 2:10pm

Loc 2007 and 2008 are basically the same, except that the 2008 version has an "opening book". It tries to find a "relatively" similar position in the data base of all games played by humans before the date of the 2008 championship, and then tries to make a move that creates a position as close as possible to the position that resulted after the human player made his move. From time to time this leads to strange moves like deliberately sacrificing pieces (not as handicap) or missing one-move captures.

I think this is the only difference between the two versions, and therefore the 2007 version might actually be stronger. And so, both of them should not time out. I'm happy if the older versions disappear from the server.

I will not make any changes on Loc anymore but instead - like Omar also suggested - Rat will play in the next championship.

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by Fritzlein on Aug 20^th, 2008, 2:17pm

on 08/20/08 at 14:10:37, BlackKnight wrote:

I think this is the only difference between the two versions, and therefore the 2007 version might actually be stronger.

Oh, then it is too bad Omar accidentally mislaid Loc2007. It would be nice to have the stronger of the two in the ladder, if not both so that we can experience the difference.

Quote:

I will not make any changes on Loc anymore but instead - like Omar also suggested - Rat will play in the next championship.

That's great news! I'm sure Rat will be very different from any engine out there today, and that is more fun than two slightly different versions of the same bot anyway.

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by BlackKnight on Aug 20^th, 2008, 2:50pm

on 08/20/08 at 14:17:37, Fritzlein wrote:

Oh, then it is too bad Omar accidentally mislaid Loc2007.

I just checked, I still have the original code that I submitted in the end of December 2006. I could either send it directly to Omar or upload and compile it again. Whatever would be easier for Omar would be fine with me.

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by omar on Aug 21^st, 2008, 1:15pm

I had made some changes to the ladder about a week ago. Forgot to announce it. Basically took out bots that were losing on time. The ladder does not allow you to advance if the bot times out.

It just occurred to me that since 3rd repetition is now ignored by the server rather than being a condition for lose, the bots which don't know about the repetition rule could appear to time out now.

I might need to change the ladder rule so that even if the bot times out you can advance past it.

Gerhard, I also have a copy of Loc2007; initially I thought I had lost it, but just found it in a backup directory. I will set it up.

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by BlackKnight on Aug 21^st, 2008, 10:33pm

Thank you, Omar!

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by omar on Aug 28^th, 2008, 12:52pm

I added Loc2007 to the bot ladder. Also reorganized the bot ladder. Took out the CC bots since they take long time to move. Took out Clueless2005 to reduce the number of bots in the ladder and also since the ladder already has Clueless2006. The whole ladder appears on one page now rather than being divided into sections. Also changed it so that if the bot loses on time the player gets to advance.

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by Fritzlein on Aug 28^th, 2008, 3:17pm

I like the streamlined and unified bot ladder. It was an interesting idea at one time to have all previous version of all bots available for all history, but that put a lot of near-repetition into the ladder, and would in any case be unsustainable after ten or twelve computer championships.

I look forward to seeing the 2008 versions of Zombie, sharp, and OpFor appear in the ladder.

It will be interesting to see what level BombP1 finds when it is no longer privileged by being on Level2. Will it settle in higher or lower than, say, LocBlitz?

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by mistre on Aug 28^th, 2008, 5:29pm

on 08/28/08 at 12:52:15, omar wrote:

You might want to reconsider and use the Clueless2005 bots instead and take the 2006 version off. The 2006 version is either really slow (P2) or timeouts frequently (Blitz). Clueless2006p1 is a decent bot that plays fast and differently enough from the 2005 version, so I would leave that one on the ladder in addition to the 2005 version.

I agree that Zombie, Opfor, and Sharp would make nice additions to the ladder, but can they play at decent speeds (move every 10-15 seconds?) I personally don't like to wait a minute between moves when playing bots...

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by aaaa on Aug 29^th, 2008, 4:52am

The idea of having the script delay the response of a bot doesn't make any sense to me. I suggest getting rid of it or at least setting it to 0 by default and with the bots on the server so as to speed up the P1 bots.

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by omar on Aug 29^th, 2008, 8:31am

on 08/29/08 at 04:52:19, aaaa wrote:

If the bot moved in less then 5 seconds (or whatever value is set in the bot config file; I usually set them to 5 seconds) then a delay is added by the script so that the move appears to take 5 seconds. If the bot took more thinking time than this, no delay is added by the script.

This is to prevent two very fast bots from hitting the server too fast. Also it makes the games viewable by humans.

If you have two bots that you want to play against each other without any delay, I would suggest using the matchOffline script which is available from the downloads page.

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by mistre on Sep 10^th, 2008, 7:36am

Still missing are Zombie2008P1 and Zombie2008P2. Were you planning on adding those?

I like how Zombie and Sharp both play more reckless with their camel. And then their is OpFor who has its own unique style.

It is nice to have these new bots on the bot ladder.

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by omar on Sep 11^th, 2008, 1:02am

Zombie doesn't seem to have an option to limit the search depth. Sharp does not look at the time control settings and is fixed to run at the computer tournament settings. However, it does provide a way to limit the search depth. Thus there is no Zombie2008P1 or P1 and Sharp2008Fast or Blitz.

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by mistre on Sep 11^th, 2008, 6:12am

Thanks for clearing that up. I guess the bot ladder is now complete!

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by omar on Feb 15^th, 2009, 6:22pm

on 08/21/08 at 13:15:07, omar wrote:

It is probably very annoying to new players to see a bot time out because it sent a 3rd repetition move and the server rejected it. So I changed the server so that if a bot sends such a move the server treats it as a resign and a chat message is added to let the human player know that the bot sent an illegal move.

Also added a "Reload" button to the game client.

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by arimaa_master on Feb 16^th, 2009, 3:18am

on 02/15/09 at 18:22:34, omar wrote:

Great news! Thanks.

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by Fritzlein on Feb 16^th, 2009, 6:55am

Thanks, Omar, those are two very nice features. In theory I like the idea that when a bot submits an illegal move it should be given a second chance, just like humans are, but I think in practice bot developers will never program their bots to try again. Instead developers will just program their bots not to make illegal moves in the first place. So no bot is actually going to be hurt by the "interpret an illegal move as a resignation" rule.

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by Janzert on Feb 16^th, 2009, 8:51am

Just curious does any illegal move get treated like this or just third repetitions? Either way I think this is a good idea and probably best if it handles any illegal move.

Could a new ending designation be used though instead of 'r', maybe 'i'?

Janzert

Title: Re: Bot_Loc not on bot ladder
Post by omar on Feb 19^th, 2009, 9:43pm

I did this just for the 3rd time repetitions. But now that you mention it, I think it might be good to do this for all illegal moves sent by bots. I also like the idea of introducing 'i' as a new termination code for illegal moves. Thanks for the suggestions, Janzert.